This thread discusses 2 issues -secular studies in eretz yisrael (for high school students and up)-and the state of Israel-and I just wanted to share with you some of the main points from the sources in Halacha poskim and gedolim of our time and previous generations : 1) regarding secular studies in general- and by this I mean math science medicine it is clear in the shulchan aruch OH 231 that even to speak in matters of chochma or wisdom it is muttar if done leishem shamayim also see OH 307:17 that even on shabbos there are poskim that say one may learn science etc and the Mishnah brura Chofetz Chaim says that the minhag is to be mekil even on shabbos also see teshuvos rema 7 for a positive look at science to see creation of Hashem . The question is not is it muttar but when in life should it be learned and for how much. This was the dispute between the Netziv (rav naftali tzvi yehuda berlin) and Rav Hirsch. The Netziv in his teshuvos meshiv Davar 44 explains that all the gedolei Torah like the Rambam etc who knew science etc learnt it either before or after they became gedolei Torah- because to become a gadol of that stature one must be fully immersed in only Torah to succeed . Rav Hirsch (acc to what I understand ) advocated science etc along with Torah learning throughout life. I believe this is the point- till 8 th grade there is math( ie around bar mitvah time )etc but afterword Torah needs to be learnt on its own to grow to full potential. In EY this can still be done .In the USA all schools must have some science math requirements therefore yeshivas for HS students will have kosher science and math books etc. Also, a RY told me that in EY they are more concerned with apikursis because of the vast polarization there between anti religious and the religious. I think that. Acc to Rav Hirsch this would be ok anywhere based on his views. The predominant opinion has been the Netziv as many Yeshivas stem from the Volozin yeshiva. And many Rabbonim and gedolim have endorsed this understanding of the Netziv. Btw although ultimately the Netziv closed down his yeshiva due to the overly taxing reforms of the govt regarding secular studies that would have completely altered the yeshiva life and potential -the netziv writes on Chumash that regarding the menorah -the center is Torah and the other lights represent the other wisdoms which are subservient to the torah. So it wasn’t that you can’t learn science etc just when should it be learnt , where -in a separate location , and how much – in a set class/kvius or individually when necessary for some Torah purpose ie learning etc… B’ Akrei (here and there) like the rema writes In hilchos Talmud Torah In YD. 2) regarding Israel – there was debate among the gedolim if it was allowed to create a state in the first place Rav kotler and rav Wasserman satmar rav held assur and even kefira bemunas mashiach -the other gedolim on moetzes gedolei hatorah of Agudah in 1937 held it was ok with conditions (see below)- i heard from a gadol that R’ Moshe held it was ok as well assumably with the same conditions. However this is just the creation of the state they were debating- and those that permitted only did so under the condition of having the real EY borders of the Torah and that it would be a religious and frum run state. However , ltoeles it was started in the majority by well meaning but unreligious jews who after complete destruction of Jews felt they had nowhere to turn. Many say the question isn’t was it or wasn’t but how does that affect me now – on this there are many views -some view the medina negatively some more positively although even they hope it could be better. See rav dessler michtav meliyahu that says something like after the tremendous destruction of Europe one should see the hashgacha of Hashem in the flourishing of the Jews in EY today. – This is my humble understanding – R’ AYF
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