The Dov Lipman ResponseóControversial?

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  • #955411
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Rabbanim who did not send Shiluchim to the US were dereclict in the responsibility.

    New York Already by 1900 was by far the largest jewish city on earth. Many did clamour and beg for Rabbanim to be sent and their cries fell on deaf ears

    #955412
    applesauch
    Member

    Oh, please. When the rabbonim in America pre-WWII tried to fix something as simple as Kashrus, yes Kashrus!, the Hamon Hoam of pre-WWII America, shooed those rabbonim out-of-town and gave them great heartache and problems. That happened to the Chief Rabbi of New York, who died as a result of this heartache, as well as in Chicago.

    That’s kind of place you expect the rabbonim to send the frum Jews of Europe to come to?! They would have risked shedding their Judaism faster than a speeding bullet.

    #955413
    benignuman
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    Rabbi Yakov Yosef came to New York to be the Chief Rabbi and to guide American Jewry in the late 1880s. His experience was terrible and heart-rendering. It is not surprising that other rabbonim were reluctant to follow.

    #955414
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Yaakov Yosef was unfortuantly not a gadol and not up to the task needed.

    #955415
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Chaim Ozer went through very difficult tests in Vilna and wound up not being appointed chief rabbi of Vilna. So Rabbi Jacob Josef was not the only one with troubles

    #955416
    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“I must be a glutton for punishment because,normally, i would totally ignore the rantings of HaKatan and Health,his alter ego.”

    First of all, you don’t want punishment, but you want the last word, even if you don’t have any new arguments, but you still keep repeating the same old stuff that you’ve been brainwashed with. Second, it’s a shame that there are only two of us here that are extremely against the Medina and therefore you mention me as his alter ego.

    “and you campaign continually for its destruction (see also Health’s lunatic Turkish option), without giving one moment’s thought to what would happen- chas vecholiloh- if your wishes ever became reality.”

    Actually the reason I feel we should give away the Medina to others is simply to save lives. You are in this dream world it will be worse and there would be some sort of Holocaust. In truth once the hatred goes away -so will most (if not all) of the killing of Jews.

    You are happy with there being victims almost everyday as long as you have your Medina; but of course as long as the victims aren’t your family!

    #955417
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    health: I’ll let the people at large decide whether your arguments or mine are the right ones. No need to keep on regurgitating the same lines of argument.

    Secondly- you continue your lunatic options of “giving away the medinah to simply save lives”. What are you smoking? Have you looked around the neighbourhood a little? Syria is killing tens of thousands of their own people…. Egypt is persecuting the Copts everywhere..Iran is imprisoning tens of thousands of their own citizens…Turkey (your very favorite Turkey) is killing the Kurds and imprisoning their citizens, on the way to an Islamic republic…AND YOU WANT US TO GIVE AEAY THE MEDINAH TO…WHOM??? stop your lunacy!

    #955418
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    applesauch: what was the result of holding back all those who wanted to leave Europe? Think about it a minute…and get back to me!

    #955419
    mdd
    Member

    Applesauch,+1.

    Leyzer, ZD and Benignuman, YES, YES and YES!It is the chiyuv ha’Torah to live in poverty and oppression and not to go to a different place where it’s easier and go off the derech! Material happiness does not override shmiras ha’mitzvos. Which Rov or Godol you’d expect to say otherwise?

    #955420
    mdd
    Member

    ZD, get it through your head, the American Jewry of that time had very difficult nisoyonos and also was totaly not interested. Stop with your false accusations!

    #955421
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    mdd: i know the pirkei avos qualities about learning torah- but tell me, truthfully, do you expect today people to be abjectly poor ,not being able to give their children food, not being able to pay rent , yet spending their time learning ? what ever happened to the mishne in kiddushin? the kesubah? and, as I asked another poster, what happened to all those wo remained in europe and heeded their rabbonim’s advice up to the Second World war?

    #955422
    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB, leaving aside your typical Zionist lies and propaganda, your motzi shem ra on gedolim is despicable. While you have the right to keep your head buried in the sand and believe the Zionist propaganda you can’t get enough of, this doesn’t allow you to attack gedolim.

    So, to repeat, read what your beloved Zionists admit about their role in the Holocaust:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hashoahany-thoughts/page/2

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yemenite-jews-and-operation-magic-carpet

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yom-hoatzmaut-and-behab/page/4

    Your “remark” about alter-ego really should not be dignified with a response, but it does bring up a point. Kol HaPoseil BiMumo Poseil; it is you who are a Zionist Yes-Man. I, on the other hand, gave credit to Health as credit was due, just as I have credited other posters by name as well. Please at least leave out the childish remarks.

    #955423
    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“Secondly- you continue your lunatic options of “giving away the medinah to simply save lives”. What are you smoking?”

    Actually you are the one Shikur with the AZ of the Medina!

    “Turkey (your very favorite Turkey) is killing the Kurds and imprisoning their citizens, on the way to an Islamic republic…AND YOU WANT US TO GIVE AEAY THE MEDINAH TO…WHOM??? stop your lunacy!”

    I’ll just respond to Turkey because they are the country I suggested. You seem to lose any logic when it comes to the Medina. I said to give the Medina to Turkey -the Kurds are looking for independence. Do you not see a difference? And Turkey has a track record, of before WW1, of being good to the Jews. This you want to ignore. You also want to ignore the fact that thousands of Jews have been killed or maimed just so Zionists should have a State. There was hardly any Jewish bloodshed, if at all, during the rule of the Ottoman empire!

    #955424
    Dr Uri Bakay
    Member

    May Hashem bless Rabbi Lipman with gezunt parnasah nachas and a good yomtov!! The Rambam and all the Tanaim and Amoraim would love him.

    #955425
    mdd
    Member

    ROB, I was not talking about staying in kollel. I was talking about staying frum.

    HaKatan, just because you stridently, with great gall spew your propaganda, it does not make you right. Obviously, all those Russian and French Jews who have been running to Israel think it is safer there.

    #955426
    HaKatan
    Participant

    mdd, who says you are right in assessing their motives (maybe it was financial, family or some other reasons) and, even if you are correct that this is “obviously” their thinking, who says that they are correct when they made that assumption?

    The bottom line, regardless, (go ahead and call this “strident” and “propaganda”) is that since 1948 alone (besides for the pre-1948 abominations of Zionism), tens of thousands of Jews (and their future “olamos”) were taken from this world because of the Zionist State, whether they were in the IDF and died fighting for this idol, or were civilian victims of terror.

    Bomb shelters have always been normal features of Israeli houses and public buildings. To protect its borders, Israel relies on “security fences” and millions of dollars of anti-missile batteries (not to mention the danger to men on the ground). But Israel still can’t come close to guaranteeing its citizens’ safety. Just tonight, there is another YWN story about this:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/167977/Minister-Warns%3A-Iron-Dome-Has-its-Limits.html

    (Yet your response is to ask about France and Russia?)

    The only way you can honestly address this issue of all those innocent lives lost and families destroyed R”L L”A due to Zionism, is by claiming it’s “worth it” in order to strengthen the State. Even some very esteemed “religious Zionists” agree, when they posit that “lichaora” those lives lost were worthwhile for this reason.

    (This is an example of the avoda zara of Zionism: to attempt to halachically condone human sacrifices for the State of Israel, when the Torah’s first priority, even at the expense of mitzvos, and almost without exception, is preserving human life.)

    May Hashem keep all His children safe and protect them from all harm CH”V.

    #955427
    mdd
    Member

    Baloney, Katan.The reason I mentioned Russia and France is because you can’t walk the street in a yarmulke there.

    I am not saying the Zionists are right. It is just your viciousness and unobjectivity annoy me. Take a chill pill. Stop listening to the Brisk/Satmar shittos so much.

    #955428
    mdd
    Member

    Saving lives al pi Torah. You are not really right. Dovid ha’Melech went to war after not big provocations.

    #955429
    mdd
    Member

    And why, Katan, the economy could be good in the Zionist state?

    #955430
    Leyzer
    Participant

    Health said

    Actually the reason I feel we should give away the Medina to others is simply to save lives. You are in this dream world it will be worse and there would be some sort of Holocaust. In truth once the hatred goes away -so will most (if not all) of the killing of Jews.

    my response

    this is delusional nonsense. the Muslim fanatics are bent on worldwide jihad. They only want Palestine because the Jews are there. if the Jews would relocate to The Diaspora, as you propose, the jihadists would follow them there chas vesholom.

    Your enthusiasm for bashing the medinah leads you to unreasonable points of view.

    #955431
    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, I am also interested in knowing what you are smoking. Because of the debts on the “Hurva” synagogue he Turks persecuted ASshkenazi olim to the extent that they had to adopt Sephardi dress (this is, in fact, the origin of the Yerushalmi robes). At the outbreak of WW1 they expelled Jews who had not taken Ottoman citizenship as they preferred their European citizenships (I wonder why). The tried to impede the Geula and lost their empire. Ditto the British.

    HaKatan, and America and European countries can protect their citizens? People in the US live behind multiple locks and are afraid to go out at night. There are video cameras everywhere for security. In Europe synagogues have no outward identification and in many places one has to pass through security and show ID to enter, even on Shabbat and Yom Tov.

    #955432
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    MDD

    The situtation between 1900 and 1940 in the US did not change, In fact it might have been worse, At least the first generation did keep many things, the second generation less so.

    Yet in the 1940’s when Rabbanin did come to the US because they were forced and the situation did change for the better.

    Imagine if those Rabbanim who came when they were forced when the Nazis came had come 50 years earlier. How much better would the situtation had been

    #955433
    Avi K
    Participant

    Imagine if all of the frum Jews of Europe had made aliya when the doors were wide open. Israel would be a completely Tora state.

    #955434
    Just Emes
    Member

    This thread discusses 2 issues -secular studies in eretz yisrael (for high school students and up)-and the state of Israel-and I just wanted to share with you some of the main points from the sources in Halacha poskim and gedolim of our time and previous generations : 1) regarding secular studies in general- and by this I mean math science medicine it is clear in the shulchan aruch OH 231 that even to speak in matters of chochma or wisdom it is muttar if done leishem shamayim also see OH 307:17 that even on shabbos there are poskim that say one may learn science etc and the Mishnah brura Chofetz Chaim says that the minhag is to be mekil even on shabbos also see teshuvos rema 7 for a positive look at science to see creation of Hashem . The question is not is it muttar but when in life should it be learned and for how much. This was the dispute between the Netziv (rav naftali tzvi yehuda berlin) and Rav Hirsch. The Netziv in his teshuvos meshiv Davar 44 explains that all the gedolei Torah like the Rambam etc who knew science etc learnt it either before or after they became gedolei Torah- because to become a gadol of that stature one must be fully immersed in only Torah to succeed . Rav Hirsch (acc to what I understand ) advocated science etc along with Torah learning throughout life. I believe this is the point- till 8 th grade there is math( ie around bar mitvah time )etc but afterword Torah needs to be learnt on its own to grow to full potential. In EY this can still be done .In the USA all schools must have some science math requirements therefore yeshivas for HS students will have kosher science and math books etc. Also, a RY told me that in EY they are more concerned with apikursis because of the vast polarization there between anti religious and the religious. I think that. Acc to Rav Hirsch this would be ok anywhere based on his views. The predominant opinion has been the Netziv as many Yeshivas stem from the Volozin yeshiva. And many Rabbonim and gedolim have endorsed this understanding of the Netziv. Btw although ultimately the Netziv closed down his yeshiva due to the overly taxing reforms of the govt regarding secular studies that would have completely altered the yeshiva life and potential -the netziv writes on Chumash that regarding the menorah -the center is Torah and the other lights represent the other wisdoms which are subservient to the torah. So it wasn’t that you can’t learn science etc just when should it be learnt , where -in a separate location , and how much – in a set class/kvius or individually when necessary for some Torah purpose ie learning etc… B’ Akrei (here and there) like the rema writes In hilchos Talmud Torah In YD. 2) regarding Israel – there was debate among the gedolim if it was allowed to create a state in the first place Rav kotler and rav Wasserman satmar rav held assur and even kefira bemunas mashiach -the other gedolim on moetzes gedolei hatorah of Agudah in 1937 held it was ok with conditions (see below)- i heard from a gadol that R’ Moshe held it was ok as well assumably with the same conditions. However this is just the creation of the state they were debating- and those that permitted only did so under the condition of having the real EY borders of the Torah and that it would be a religious and frum run state. However , ltoeles it was started in the majority by well meaning but unreligious jews who after complete destruction of Jews felt they had nowhere to turn. Many say the question isn’t was it or wasn’t but how does that affect me now – on this there are many views -some view the medina negatively some more positively although even they hope it could be better. See rav dessler michtav meliyahu that says something like after the tremendous destruction of Europe one should see the hashgacha of Hashem in the flourishing of the Jews in EY today. – This is my humble understanding – R’ AYF

    #955435
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I once met in the park an eldery woman. I was talking to her and I found out she was a survivor and felt lonley from her teenage grandaughter.

    She then proceeded to tell me her story, In the 30’s she had wanted to join some your zionist kibbutz or something (Dont remember exact details except it involved going to Palestine) Her parents Rabbi forbid her from going to Palestine and while she did survive, her entire familyh was killed and she seemed (at least to me) permantly damaged.

    I also once knew an eldery man from Romania/Hungary (Some Borders are fluid) , He told me the story he remembered as a teen of a woman who was bragging how none of her family had emigrated to the US (This occured in Late 1930’s) . He said he’d never forget that woman for the rest of his life (He maanged to live on the Lam for a few years and never himself went to a camp)

    #955436
    mdd
    Member

    ZD, you are wrong. The Yiddishkeit was rebuilt from the more frum Europen refugees of late 1930s and 1940s. Without their influx, the Gedolim would not be able to do anything. They needed a frume olam. The previous wave Jews were mostly irrevocably lost.

    AviK, nobody coulld have known that before the fact.

    #955438
    mdd
    Member

    So, ZD? What’s your point? I know keeping people from going off the derech is of no value to you.

    #955439
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Frum refugees didnt really come until either immediatly before the war (in the US) or after, (There was some immigration from Germany, I knew a few people emigrated from Germany before the war) but not really from Eastern Europe where the more frummer lived.

    In the 1930’s the US took very few immigrants due to its own policies and the depression, It couldnt take care of its own people let alone immigrants.

    #955440
    mdd
    Member

    ZD, I meant people who came right before the war when I wrote “1930s”.

    #955441
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to Hakatan and health! First, allow me to wish you a gut yomtov! Tonight, we will all learning the same Torah! I can live in harmony with everyone ! (and do,btw, where I live!). You have a “shittoh’ that defies any logic and the only reason I answer your questions-and many other posters agree with me-is because espousing your view would lead to a catastrophe for the jewish people. One catastrpohe in our lifetime is enough! never again!

    #955442
    Health
    Participant

    Leyzer -“this is delusional nonsense. the Muslim fanatics are bent on worldwide jihad. They only want Palestine because the Jews are there. if the Jews would relocate to The Diaspora, as you propose, the jihadists would follow them there chas vesholom.

    Your enthusiasm for bashing the medinah leads you to unreasonable points of view.”

    Another alter ego of ROB.

    I have been posting about the Medina for years now. I’ll just assume that you are actually a new poster and Not one of these Zionists hiding behind a new SN.

    I obviously can Not repeat all my posts about the Medina, but I will give you a quick summary. The basic Hatred of Jews from the Muslim world is because the Jews made a Medina. Yes, Muslims always hated Jews, but every Goy hates Jews and the muslims are/were no different. The Medina caused the hatred to grow a thousand-fold. Getting rid of the Medina would cause most of the Muslim world to go back to the original hatred.

    All what I have posted now I based on historical fact of which I’ve previously posted.

    #955443
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, I am also interested in knowing what you are smoking.”

    You like ROB are drunk on the AZ of Zionism!

    “Because of the debts on the “Hurva” synagogue he Turks persecuted ASshkenazi olim to the extent that they had to adopt Sephardi dress (this is, in fact, the origin of the Yerushalmi robes). At the outbreak of WW1 they expelled Jews who had not taken Ottoman citizenship”

    So you’re saying the victims of Arab terrorism and their families are happy they died under Israeli rule, than have to be alive under the “terrible” persecution of the Turks? And you ask me what I’m smoking?!?!

    “HaKatan, and America and European countries can protect their citizens?”

    You’re right they can’t because of Liberalism that prevades Western society. But we are still safer here than under the protection of the IDF, even with the drafting of the Charedim, and the Medina. Or are you oblivious to fact of how many Jews have been killed in Israel since the beginning of the Medina compared to how many Jews have been killed in Western countries?

    #955444
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    health- “the basic hatred of jews from the muslin world is because the Jews made a medinah”. mmmmm….I would think that the armenians, copts, assyrians X-ians and multitude of others would dispute your contention that hatred of the muslims to the other religions rest solely on the medinah….

    The sad part is that you live in a fantasy world of your own making. How the Jews fared in the Ottoman world has no relationship to today’s world, when -as Leyzer wrote- the Muslim religion has metastasized into a virulent , murderous religion that will not deal kindly with any religion other than their own-see Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Nigeria and others, too numerous to mention. Your fantasia would bring destruction and catastrophe to the Jewish people. NEVER AGAIN!

    #955445
    writersoul
    Member

    mdd: “The previous wave Jews were mostly irrevocably lost.”

    I think that’s unfair to those immigrants who did manage to keep their faith. And they existed- I’m a proud descendant of one.

    The thing is, it may even be true, what you’re saying, except:

    1) If those same Jews had come over earlier (which I think is the point of zahavasdad’s posts) then arguably the US Jewish community would have just been revitalized earlier, and

    2) The conditions, weirdly enough, of the 30s and 40s were better for observant Jews than those of the previous decades. The five day work week first became standard in the late 20s, and the Fair Labor Standards Act wasn’t made law until 1938. In fact, according to Wikipedia (no, I usually don’t quote Wikipedia but I found this interesting, and feel free to take it with a grain of salt), “the first five-day work week in America was instituted by a New England cotton mill to afford Jewish workers the ability to adhere to their own religious Sabbath.” It was early on, but until Ford instituted it in 1926 it was an anomaly.

    Those frummer Jews really just came at an opportune time for Yiddishkeit.

    #955446
    HaKatan
    Participant

    MDD, regarding what “annoys” you, the context in which I am posting is that of people who are so blinded by Zionism that they completely refuse to face facts and reality and insist on keeping their heads in the sand.

    So, to begin with your own post, I posted a number of unique “features” of Israeli living, like ubiquitous bomb shelters (not to mention all the blown up buses). Those don’t exist elsewhere. And I previously mentioned that thousands of Jews lost their lives because of Zionism.


    ROB, thank you for the yom tov wishes.

    Even Rabbi Soloveichik admitted that the State of Israel is the cause of Arab hatred to Jews. This is actually quite obvious to any objective observer. While the Arabs did not love us beforehand, we basically lived side-by-side both in their countries and in Mandatory Palestine. As a “religious Zionist”, are you arguing with “the Rav” (and reality)?

    Had the Zionists not started up with the Arabs (and had the Zionists not also convinced everyone that Zionism =, lihavdil, Judaism), the Arabs would not hate Jews even if they may not have been our friends either.


    Again, Rabbi Soloveichik himself admitted that the establishment of Israel has caused Arab hatred of Jews (and it’s obvious that this is the case). Not to mention all the gedolim who said Zionism is A”Z and/or apikorsus.

    Yet any time there is a post reminding Jews that Zionism has been a disaster for Jews (Zionist shmad, then and now, and also the tens of thousands who died or were murdered, many horrifically so, CH”V, and the continued need for an IDF) and that Zionism is not Judaism, the majority of posts in response spout propaganda and/or irrelevant facts trying to defend their idol.

    If you want to claim that your religion of Zionism proclaims all this to be worthwhile on the altar of Zionism, then please understand this is very much not, CH”V, Judaism.

    Gut yom tov to all.

    #955447
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan, stop harping about the shmad and those killed. Had they stayed in Russia, Poland, Hungary etc., they would have been either shamded or killed or faced oppression from the Goyim there. You and your freinds keep your head in the sand about it. It was the the European anti-Semitism which caused Zionism. Stop pretending it was just some crazy idea which appeared out of nowhere!

    #955448
    mdd
    Member

    Shelters? Have you heard of pogroms? It did not mean some anti-Semites throwing two stones through the window. It meant murder, maiming, bnos Yisroel assaulted etc. All of these on a massive scale. Have you heard of anti-Semitic laws in the Russian Empire and the persecution in Poland and other places. Of daily persecution in Europen countries? Do not pretend it never happened!

    #955449
    Wolfman
    Participant

    We are not allowed to link, but Google the words “Anti-semitism in the Arab world” and you will get much info. Zionism may have “exacerbated” anti-Semitism in the Arab world, but it was not a “cause” of anti-Semitism.

    #955450
    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“The sad part is that you live in a fantasy world of your own making. How the Jews fared in the Ottoman world has no relationship to today’s world, when -as Leyzer wrote- the Muslim religion has metastasized into a virulent , murderous religion that will not deal kindly with any religion other than their own-see Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Nigeria and others, too numerous to mention.”

    And the fact that you don’t mention is that this has to do mostly because of the creation of the Medina. The reason you don’t want to look back to the times before the Medina is because you don’t want to believe that the Medina has caused this great hatred from the Muslims. The fact is the Islam religion hasn’t changed over hundreds of years. The fact is the Zionists started up with them because they convinced themselves that to solve the Jewish problem would be to create a State. They sorely missed the boat -to solve the Jewish problem we need to return to our Father in Heaven. By pretending that the State will solve the problems only causes Hashem to be more angry at the Jewish people; by getting rid of it is the first step in going back to Hashem.

    #955451
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    health-I hope you had a good yomtov.

    You really live in a fantasy world if you think that “the Islam religion hasn’t changed over hundreds of years”. And you double that dose of fantasy if you think that all what happens in all the countries I mentioned have to do with the medinah (Nigeria??).

    HaKatan: As I and other posters have been saying for a while: you are blinded by an irrational hatred (fear?) of Zionism and therefore you make the most fanciful claims.

    #955452
    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“(Nigeria??)”

    Ya see – the reason they are in Nigeria is because when the Medina moves to Uganda, like the original plan, there won’t be any Muslims there to bother the Jews.

    “I hope you had a good yomtov.”

    Yes I did. And I said in Hallel -“Kmohem Yehyu Oseyhem Kol Asher Boteyach Bohem”. This is refering to Idol worship like the Medina, but the real Jews believe in “Yisroel Bitach BaHashem etc”.

    #955453
    HaKatan
    Participant

    MDD, your post is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

    Nobody claims 19th-century Europe was free of persecution. I also agree with you that there were serious spiritual issues in Europe, in addition, including (Zionism,) the haskalah, etc.

    Your greatest error, however, is the premise that any of this justified Zionism. We had similar, and also worse, periods in our galus; yet, nobody ever condoned violating the oaths and taking Eretz Yisrael en mass and with force against the nations as did the Zionists. In fact, when asked, the Rambam specifically warned the Jews of Yemen in Iggeres Teiman against doing so despite the danger and persecution, physically and spiritually, that the Jews then faced.

    They listened to the Rambam and, ironically, until the Zionists hoodwinked them into coming to Israel and then shmaded them (and more), those same Yemenites had kept their mesorah intact from Bayis Rishon.

    Zionism was not and is not the solution. As Health posted above, the Zionists decided that “normalizing” the Jewish nation would make the problems of galus go away. Especially in hindsight, it is very clear that the Zionists were very wrong. As the gedolim presciently predicted, they would create far more problems than they thought they would solve.

    As I posted earlier, Israeli living clearly reflects the disaster of Zionism (“security fence”, multi-million dollar missile defense shields, neither of which are fully effective, ubiquitous bomb shelters, mandatory conscription, never knowing a day of peace in its decades of bloody existence, etc.)

    The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs to hate not only Zionists but (other) Jews as well. These facts were understood already decades ago by “Religious Zionists” like Rabbi Soloveichik and certainly so by, lihavdil, secular Zionists as well.


    ROB, repeating your projections on others doesn’t make those any less mistaken than they were the first time you said them. I do not hate and I do not denigrate, as I have said in the past. It is unfortunate for your belief in your A”Z of Zionism that the facts are clearly stacked against this belief.

    Before you even get to the gedolim’s views, read what your own Zionists, religious and otherwise, have to say about your faith of Zionism. Childish insults do not make for meaningful contributions to conversations.

    #955454
    Avi K
    Participant

    Health,

    1. In case you haven’t noticed, the Islamists have fantasies of re-establishing the Caliphate and either converting or killing all “infidels”. In fact, they are already slaughtering Notzrim in countries under their control.

    2.According to Ramban there is a Tora obligation to conquer and settle EY, by war if necessary. As the Chafetz Chaim put it, we are all soldiers (and, as with every army, we have our Benedict Arnolds who go over to the other side).

    3. Part of returning to Hashem is returning to the land He gave us and establishing a state.

    4.”Kmohem Yehyu Oseyhem Kol Asher Boteyach Bohem” is going on those who have faith in other religious groups.

    #955455
    mdd
    Member

    HaKatan,again, I do not say that the Zionists were right. What I am saying is that after objectively looking at all the circumstances, your position should not have been so extreme and vicious. Most Gedolim do not hold like Brisk and Satmar. 3 Oaths is also not so simple at all as you present it. Just because you push the Satmar shittah it does not become the only pshat.

    #955456
    mdd
    Member

    Plus, about the missile shields etc. Do us a favor, drei nit ken kup. The US and Russia have missile shields. Russia also has a border fence. So?

    #955457
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Asher Weiss says that something which is not mentioned by Rambam, the Tur or the Shulchan Aruch (and the 3 Oaths are not) is not halacha pesuka.Moreover, Rav Chaim Vital says that they were only for 1,000 years and Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference repealed them. Moreover, the other nations violated their end of the bargain on many occasions.

    #955458
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K –

    1. They might live under persecution, but how many Xitians have been killed in let’s say Egypt this year? As many Jews that were killed in Israel? I think Not. You keep pushing the Zionist propaganda in spite of the truthful facts!

    2. Yes, only acc. to Torah. I got news for you the State of Israel doesn’t keep the Torah.

    3. Only acc. to Torah. Stop living in your fantasy world that the State is based on Torah -it’s based on Kefira. It’s not just the Chilonim’s way of life – everyday the State looks to remove some sort of Torah from it’s laws. Why don’t you listen to Lapid who keeps saying how much removal he’s planning on doing to Israeli Law?

    4.”Kmohem Yehyu Oseyhem Kol Asher Boteyach Bohem” is going on those who have faith in other religious groups.”

    Exactly and Zionism fits into this category!

    #955460
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Avi K, your “arguments” are futile and discredited “Religious Zionist” attempts at making kosher their A”Z of Zionism. For starters, the purpose of the oaths is to protect Klal Yisrael in galus and there is no logical reason they should not any more be in effect after an arbitrary amount of time.

    (In fact, it seems quite evident, Hashem Yishmor, that the oaths are in effect well past that 1,000 year mark. Suicide bombs and rocks thrown at cars, the Fogel family massacre, and all the other horrors endured by Israelis, are very much not normal. And some gedolim have argued that the Holocaust itself was a manifestation of these oaths.)

    The nations fulfilling their oath also has nothing to do with our oaths. Our oaths are for our protection.

    Despite Zionist wishful thinking, Rav Meir Simcha never said that. Had ALL the nations (including the Arabs) agreed AND had there been only limited and non-political/non-ruling ascent, then it seems that this would have been okay according to Rav Meir Simcha.

    But the San Remo conference does not nullify the oaths. For one, even if ALL the nations had agreed (which the Arabs and others did not), this would only take care of the oath against rebelling against the nations, not the oath against being oleh biChoma, en mass. Regardless, the Arabs never agreed, as is painfully obvious, so Zionism has violated both oaths.

    #955461
    HaKatan
    Participant

    mdd, I already posted the context in which these posts are posted. You, yourself, mistakenly propose that this is only a “Satmar and Brisk shita”. But I believe your moderation is misplaced. You are deceiving people as you so desperately defend this A”Z.

    Let’s get to the easy part first. The “missile shield” that the other countries have cannot be compared to Israel’s, and you know it, and it is disingenuous to compare them.

    Israel’s missile shield is part of an *ACTIVE* defense system, not just for a “doomsday” scenario like the others. When’s the last time you heard of Russia’s missile shield being activated or intercepting (or missing) a missile? Israel already knows just how effective (and ineffective) are its missile batteries. “Do us a favor, drei nit ken kup.” You also haven’t addressed the ubiquitous bomb shelters and the rest. This “defense” you are attempting is absurd, as is Zionism.

    Regarding the oaths and the State, who argues with a befeirush gemara that is brought liHalacha by poskim? This is even conceded by Zionists who are forced to attempt to explain away the oaths with “novel” approaches like “the oaths are only decrees; but if you can successfully disregard the oaths and establish the State of Israel then that’s fine.”

    Again, as previously posted:

    (The Brisker Rov said the State of Israel is the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel.)

    Rav Elchonon Wasserman said Zionism is Avoda Zara and “Religious Zionism” is religion and A”Z biShituf.

    That’s not enough for you?

    #955462
    ymn613
    Member

    THIS IS ALL LOSHON HARA AND I FEEL BED FOR WHO EVER STARTED THIS TOPIC GEHNIM IS BIG ENOUGH FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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