Reply To: The Dov Lipman Response�Controversial?

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#955453
HaKatan
Participant

MDD, your post is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Nobody claims 19th-century Europe was free of persecution. I also agree with you that there were serious spiritual issues in Europe, in addition, including (Zionism,) the haskalah, etc.

Your greatest error, however, is the premise that any of this justified Zionism. We had similar, and also worse, periods in our galus; yet, nobody ever condoned violating the oaths and taking Eretz Yisrael en mass and with force against the nations as did the Zionists. In fact, when asked, the Rambam specifically warned the Jews of Yemen in Iggeres Teiman against doing so despite the danger and persecution, physically and spiritually, that the Jews then faced.

They listened to the Rambam and, ironically, until the Zionists hoodwinked them into coming to Israel and then shmaded them (and more), those same Yemenites had kept their mesorah intact from Bayis Rishon.

Zionism was not and is not the solution. As Health posted above, the Zionists decided that “normalizing” the Jewish nation would make the problems of galus go away. Especially in hindsight, it is very clear that the Zionists were very wrong. As the gedolim presciently predicted, they would create far more problems than they thought they would solve.

As I posted earlier, Israeli living clearly reflects the disaster of Zionism (“security fence”, multi-million dollar missile defense shields, neither of which are fully effective, ubiquitous bomb shelters, mandatory conscription, never knowing a day of peace in its decades of bloody existence, etc.)

The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs to hate not only Zionists but (other) Jews as well. These facts were understood already decades ago by “Religious Zionists” like Rabbi Soloveichik and certainly so by, lihavdil, secular Zionists as well.


ROB, repeating your projections on others doesn’t make those any less mistaken than they were the first time you said them. I do not hate and I do not denigrate, as I have said in the past. It is unfortunate for your belief in your A”Z of Zionism that the facts are clearly stacked against this belief.

Before you even get to the gedolim’s views, read what your own Zionists, religious and otherwise, have to say about your faith of Zionism. Childish insults do not make for meaningful contributions to conversations.