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@katan
what your term ‘zionist’, is not one personits thousands or more correct , millions of people spread over many generations with untold varying degrees of religiosity , sincerity and degrees of zionism
in the mashal there is one and only person who lights and extinguishes the fire
in the real world there is one person who exclusively lights and another who exclusively extinguishes .
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.So as a continuation of my previous post –
the answer is : yes some zionists saved a lot of people
notwithstanding that some other zionists did exactly the opposite
but forget about katan — he has totally forgotten about the existence of a midah called ‘modeh al ha’emet’.
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>>>When the Mufti came to Rabbi Kook to complain, instead of decrying the wicked Zionists… (Hakatan)
You gotta to be kidding. You really believe that the mufti went to Rav Kook to complain about something and work things out??? LOL ,
Anyway for accuracy sake and according to all neutral reporting of those events, a temporary mechitza was usually allowed by the Kosel on Yomim Tovim. During the Yom Kippur tefilos of 1928 the Mufti decided that this was way too much of a provocation and successfully got the British police to remove it during the Yom Kippur tefilos . Afterwards the issue escalated.
According to the anti-Zionist propaganda I was always fed there is no way the people who were there on Yom Kippur and wanted to daven with a mechitza were Zionists…
>>>Was Uganda an alternative to create a safe place for all Yidden and keep EY for only a small religious community? Possibly.
Uganda would have been an absolute disaster. It had all the downsides of EY and none of the redeeming factors. It was an offer of a largely undeveloped and isolated piece of land without the topography or arable land capable of making it a sustainable one for a large group. The native population itself did not agree and was hostile to the idea of a Zionist takeover. To top it all off the British who were making the proposal did not have the undisputed sovereignty over the land .They had only recently taken over, never established a firm foothold and their presence was still being resisted by the indigenous population. How could such an idea possibly have worked out?
And as far as the small religious community in EY they would have been wiped out when the Arab Nationalists took over. Which they certainly would have.
chiefshmerel:
You seem to have missed the part that Rabbi Kaplan lived there and attended that yeshiva in Chevron. You can ignore the reality of the Zionists having caused that, if you choose to do so. But those are the facts.HaKatan, I acknowledged that R’ Kaplan lived in Chevron at the time. For the umpteenth time, which part of the following is hard to understand?
If you pride yourself on NOT following current events, you won’t know what happens until it directly affects you. Saying they read the Palestine Post at the Chevron Yeshiva is extremely unlikely. His views at the time were certainly inaccurate and would never be accurate until he acknowledges parts that he wasn’t told, which would require adjustment of views.
Why are his views the only possibly true version of events? My great grandfather learned in Chevron at the same time and was no Zionist at any point in his lifetime. Yet he didn’t think the blame was on any single individual or faction. Saying “Zionists caused it” is oversimplified and inaccurate in the sense of the word “cause”.
To reiterate my comment in my previous post: You still haven’t answered my Occam’s Razor sighting on this thread or others beyond “nuh uh… because I said so.”
By the way, thanks for yielding on my challenge for primary sources of the time, not fuzzy recollections decades later from people who didn’t follow current events at the time. This will be my last post on this thread unless someone has those sources, I’ve made my point.chief > His views at the time were certainly inaccurate and would never be accurate until he acknowledges parts that he wasn’t told, which would require adjustment of views.
This seems like the biggest challenge of our times. We learned, the hard way, that world affect us – through assimilation, reform, communists, nazis, UN, arabs, zionists … So, if we stay limited to our own way of life, we get blindsided. If we join the fray, we might asiimilate…
In old times, it sometimes worked when just the askanim and great leaders like R Yochanan b Zakkai would get involved, but it looks like it is not sufficient in our times. The story goes that anti-religious theatre (tautological?) showed a Jewish army where those who bilta house/got married leave, then those who are afraid leave, with only R Chaim Brisker and R Spector were left. R Chaim responded taht this is right and they won the war.
But do we really think that a modern Rosh Yeshiva can win all the wars without socvial scientists, generals, doctors, engineers – all working together.
If this were so, then Chofetz Chaim would have helped Polish government build tanks to fights germans and russians instead of petitioning the Poles to relax sanitary regulations on mikvaos explaining Jews could not afford building non-stinky ones (he did not ask for subsidies either).AAQ:
Indeed on topic.
The Zionists caused the Holocaust, and actively and otherwise contributed to it. Yet you’re claiming that the Zionists saved some Jews.
The Zionists also have intentionally shmaded at least three generations of Jews there. That’s millions of people more. Yet you claim that some Jews were saved from assimilation due to the “State”.Bottom line: the world in general, and Jews in particular, would have been incalculably better off had the Zionists never started. Period.
what you term ‘zionist’, is not one person
its thousands or more correct , millions of people spread over many generations with untold varying degrees of religiosity , sincerity and degrees of zionism
in the mashal there is one and only person who lights and extinguishes the fire
in the real world there is one person who exclusively lights and another who exclusively extinguishes .
—
waiting for your ‘non parrot’ answer …..
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.katan> The Zionists caused the Holocaust, and actively and otherwise contributed to it.
maybe we have a problem with the method the discussion. you are repeating statements, without bringing any specific proofs, at best referring to some isolated events.
Maybe, (I am guessing) you refer to spiritual reasons that are hard to argue about. In the physical world, you can point to German Jewry assimilation as possible trigger for German antisemites, Germans were mostly anti-Zionists, though. Other than that, WW1 and post-WW1 attempts to reach world peace are usually to blame. I suggest reading history books by R Berl Wein Zt’L to catch up on some facts.
chiefshmerel:
Speaking of Occam’s Razor, it’s much simpler to simply take Rabbi Kaplan’s words as authoritative unless you have an equally authoritative and clear source that conflicts – at which point you would compare the two. If you have any authoritative source to that effect, please feel free to post it.Again, the facts are that Jabotinsky’s secularist youth group marched on the Kosel – provocatively against both the British and Arabs – and claimed that the Kosel was their national treasure. When the Mufti complained to Rabbi Kook about that, he told the savage that he cannot distinguish between nationalist fervor and religious fervor (even though the youth group was very much not religious).
As a result of that provocation, the Arabs spread a rumor that their Al Aqsa mosque was being threatened by the Zionists. The savages’ religious leaders inflamed the masses, with the tragic result of the savages murdering the European-looking – but non-Zionist – yeshiva students in the Chevron Yeshiva. And those students had previously lived peacefully among the Arabs, as Rabbi Kaplan testified as well.
AAQ:
Read Min HaMeitzar. Read the history books. They caused it physically/materially, too, not “just” spiritually. And When a Zionist was interviewed decades later if he regretted not using Zionist money to save Jews from the Holocaust, he replied that he did not at all regret it because Zionism is above all else.yankel berel:
By your “logic”, it would be incorrect to consider the Nazis as bad because there were varying degrees of Nazis and also many of those who helped Jews.Many “holy” jews say that the holocaust was ‘atchlah d’goola’ and that is it a great merit to have died working in their slave camps. And that if only we could send more of our religious boys (of course, the vast majority who aren’t REALLY learning) to die in those camps, then moshiach would come! Instead stupid traditional Jews just can’t grasp the hidden good of these nazi murderers and won’t join their brethren in the gas chambers. AND YOU WONDER WHY WE ARE STILL IN GALOOOT!
/S
HaKatan, why do you lack sources for every single one of your claims in response to me? I referenced the Palestine Post and Ha’Aretz. What have you referenced?
huh? Hakatan, just in his last comment to you, referenced the statement of the survivor Rav Baruch Kaplan.
katan :
By your “logic”, it would be incorrect to consider the Nazis as bad because there were varying degrees of Nazis and also many of those who helped Jews.
—which nazis ‘helped’ jews ?
names, dates and places , please ?
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.survivors I have spoken to claim that many days in the Nazi slave camps there were some nazi’s that would provide them old bread and sometimes soup-water. They even had established kitchens on campus to support jewish life.
That food helped them stay alive.In fact between 1942-1944 Nazi Germany was the SINGLE GREATEST SUPPORTER OF JEWISH FOOD for Polish Jews still alive.
Sure, you might be confused as the Nazis were ALSO the ones who confiscated as much food from Jews as possible and took control of their lives, forcing them into camps. But, that was Nazi Germany from 1938-1941, a VERY different almost unrecognizable thing entirely.So too Zionists claim themselves the SINGLE GREATEST SUPPORTER OF TORAH in the world…. v’hamaiven yuvin.
somejewiknow:
Nope. No gedolim ever stated the heresy that the Zionist “State” was the beginning of the redemption. It’s also silly to claim that almost a century later, but that’s besides the point. The source of that lie is Rabbi Kasher’s forgery in which he sent a KK to various rabbis – including some who had already died – and told them than unless they objected that he would use their signature. In addition, he changed the wording from what he sent them from gathering exilees to the infamous “reishis tzemichas”. There were some Torah sages who were fooled by this forgery (and quoted it), but none held of it on their own.All sheker.
no comparison whatsoever
.No Gadol is against Eretz Yisroel. NOT one! Only Meroglim are against it.
I would like to know what you are smoking. Gotta get me some of that!!
somejewiknow, I acknowledged R’ Kaplan multiple times in this thread and explained inaccuracies. I referenced sources at the time, not recollections, with many more details. It is a greater source when analyzing it since they had more diverse knowledge. No one has rebutted this.
Do anti-Zionists have reading comprehension skills? Do they listen, or only hear?somejewiknow, I gave sources. I don’t dispute R’ Kaplan as a source, only that there was more to the story. Has HaKatan (or anyone) done the same for me? I disputed some claims and give sources, no one else has done so.
These reactions boil down to the classic childish bully tactic: “because I said so”.The rabid anti-Zionists here unfortunately do not possess reading comprehension skills. One only needs to read through recent threads concerning Israel, Zionism etc. over the last few months to half-year to see that they do not respond in a material manner when questioned. In particular, despite Yankel and and myself being on opposite sides of the Charedi draft issue, both of us have questioned them on the same grounds repeatedly with no material response. YYA has done so as well.
It doesn’t matter if it was questioning the applicability of the three oaths on Halachic grounds; respectfully questioning the applicability of Vayoel Moshe and such a work having any binding authority upon anyone outside the Rabbinic jurisdiction of its author; respectuflly yet forcefully showing how the RZ Tzibbur is very different from secularist Zionism; and even calling out divisive, bombastic rhetoric 2 days before Tisha B’Av as well as recent threads with bombastic titles for no reason other than to be rude and offensive.
The response has been the same. They repeatedly reference the same three Rabbonim, insist that any works which imply some support for Zionism on any level are intentionally being misinterpreted and misunderstood by their disputants, use Halacha as an excuse for a total lack of Middos, much less basic politeness, and ignore anything they disagree with or cannot respond to.
They also are quite frankly the Yeshivish/Chassidish equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills, meaning that vis a vis Zionism, they are continuing to fight a nearly century old battle now irrelevant. They should be looking at the far more insidious, underlying issue at hand – ideological secularism (a century ago this took the form of Zionism and communism, it is now currently in the form of progressivism and militant antitheism), and joining the RZ Tzibbur in combating that issue which concerns Orthodox Judaism in all its stripes.
yes. what you say is not just obvious but well documented as well. my earlier comment was sarcastic in nature to mock the heresy of notzri and/or zionist supporters. I ended it with the customary “/s” annotation to clarify for anyone foolish enough to believe the nonsense the zionists spew forth.
chiefshmerel:
You mentioned the existence of some newspapers. That’s not giving sources.
So, if you are not disputing Rabbi Kaplan, then take the entirety of what he stated and try to refute any part of that with specific sources.
No, this is not “because I said so”; it’s because he said so, as a talmid chacham who lived there and described the the general conditions and exactly what lead up to this massacre of innocent Jews HY”D thanks to the Zionist heretics.ZSK: Excellent comment!
HaKatan, your selectiveness is indeed “because I said so”.
According to you, multiple newspapers at the time describing events as they went on daily, all of which supplied more to the story than Rabbi Kaplan, are not valid sources. But his lack of connectedness with current events outside his daled amos, as present in 1929, is 100% emes!
HaKatan, you don’t care enough about historical accuracy. If anyone wants a better picture of what happened both immediately before and after, you are invited to read an article titled “Eye Witnesses Describe Horrors of the Moslem Arabs’ Attacks at Hebron on Saturday, August 24”. It’s dated September 1, 1929, and is available publicly and online from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA).
Rabbi Jacob Joseph Slonim understood his city much better than any American relatively fresh off the boat with next to no connection to current events. Haganah youth didn’t show up in Chevron one day before for no reason. Rabbi Slonim didn’t necessarily agree with their presence (based purely on excessive optimism) but knew why they were there.
This is my last post on this thread. I’ve made my case, and everyone besides the three stooges knows that said individuals lack reading comprehension skills. They should learn some political history and evolution of communal relationships in Eretz Yisrael, once they rejuvenate their brains from long(er)-form brainrot.
HaKatan, you can have the last word if you want it so badly. My posts above, although directed at you, are not intended for you. I wouldn’t argue this with a close-minded stranger in an empty room, ditto for a close-minded stranger in private. Anything so pressing and leading to so much disagreement contains more to the story. Right or wrong, you’ll get nowhere without that.ZSK > equivalent of Don Quixote tilting at windmills,
this is a structural problem. If you are not following events, do not understand technology and politics, then you only see things when they hit you in the face. As R Avigdor Miller said – if something is happening in Viet Nam – learn lessons from it. Otherwise, the next lesson will be closer to home.
So, Jewish response to modernity seems to be often somewhat late. And memoirs (like mentioned here about Chevron) talk about what happened right there, without awareness of the world.
We don’t want, of course, to react to any new -ism, Judaism is conservative by design. But this conservative approach works in stable societies. When things change quickly, like yetiyat mitzrayim, hellenism, destruction of BM, and – recently every ten years … you have to do things within 18 minutes, maybe that is the lesson of Pesach …
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