ארץ ישראל and the state

First, it is very refreshing that anti z position here is defended by a small but determined group that is not very eloquent. I could have written better responses for them. It really indicates that wider thinking charedim do not hold by that.

Also, just heard in R Lebowitz kinos about baryonim who wanted to put spear in r Yochanan to verify that he is niftar: people with agenda will eventually go to great lengths in defending their position.

Calling any Jew a ‘galach’ ‘sheigitz’ etc. is disgusting, and accomplishes nothing to get your point across.

@YYA – I was mostly making a rhetorical point that the same can be said about the Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim and that Mr. somejewiknow should have never said what he did. He certainly should not have posted it two days before Tisha B’Av.

@smerel
it’s very simple Xtianity long ago stopped claiming (in a meaningful way, especially vis-a-vis common judaism) that it is the real Judaism.
Zionism, on the other hand, still claims itself a valid form of (or at least compatible with) Judaism.

That prefaning of the holy makes it much worse than just going of to India and, chv”sh, worshiping a getchke.

This might allow the argument that Jews for Zionism is the same evil as Jews for J.
(neither are great methods of kiruv)

AAQ – Not because ‘Satmar will stop davening by us’ or because of ‘Chareidi reaction’. Simply by seeing that there are people who (usually/in general/in many areas/disclaimer of your choice) do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ. Not because they are afraid of anyone, but because they are also Jewish and they also want to be ehrlich and this silently reminds them that they can be better. Again, I am referring to those areas in which Chareidim do in fact do better than MO. No intention to start a debate on the relative merits of either group. The same can also be said of the symbiotic relationship of all different groups of observant Jews, (Sephardim, Litvish, Chassidish, the serious RZ, and all variations of the above), who each excel in some way, and inspire others to be better too.

I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship. No one, not even Satmar etc., ever remotely suggested that entering a MO/RZ Shul (at least normal mainstream MO that conform to basic Halacha) is in any way comparable to a non-Orthodox בית הכסא.

ZSK – I was also disgusted by the language used, and especially the timing, and I let him know that too. I’m starting to think that the real reason some people are so fixated on fighting ‘Zionism’ is that it ‘allows’ them to copy-paste harsh language from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue, and apply it to anyone they don’t like now, without feeling guilty – because such-and-such a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva ‘also said that’ (in a completely different era and context). Even back then, usually by the time these ‘statements’ attributed to Gedolim made it to street level or to biographies of questionable accuracy, much was added and embellished… The Chazon Ish and the Satmar Rov (for example) wrote many seforim. Someone who wants to see what they definitely did say can look there. But it’s more exciting to quote apocryphal (and ‘juicy’) stories…

@YYA – You’re likely right. By perpetuating a mostly irrelevant issue and insisting they are on the “right side of history” (for lack of a better term), they are giving themselves carte-blanche to be as nasty and rude as possible.

As it happens, I may harshly criticize the Charedi Tzibbur at large, but it is not out of actual hatred or malice.

YYA> do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ.

that might be. I see it mostly through Charedi teachers in MO schools. Maybe by some MO professionals coming to learn with kollelnikim. Mabe, some youngsters starting coming to a Charedi minyan feeling “frummer”. Otherwise, those in MO community who are serious about their observance and pretty self-sufficient. Those who are less serious, look up to those who are. When I mention an opinion of one of the Charedi rabbis in the community, some of MO people never met them and barely heard of them. Maybe it is different in other places.

> I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship.

I meant that R Soloveitchik is stricter towards non-O because he, and his community, has more chances of interactions and it is both a more frequent issue and a need for more strictness. For Rav Moshe, it is a question whether you can enter for a funeral. For R Soloveitchik, a question from a student whether he can be a Rabbi in a shul with mixed seating; or an invitation for a shul opening dinner in honor of the Rabbi who is a personal friend; or an issue of listening to Shofar on R’H when there is no alternative (answer in all cases is “no”, the last one – “the easiest question I was ever asked”)

Yaakov Yosef A:
“…from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue…”
This is one of the sillier Zionist memes.

Many years ago, the wicked Zionists were doing atrocities like yaldei teiman and yaldei tehran and all the rest. But even if they aren’t literally throwing away people’s priceless sefarim as they dock in Haifa, they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).

As well, right now, the wicked Zionists are pulling out all the stops to close the yeshivos there. As you can read on the Jewish blogs like YWN, their gestapo attempted to take away a yeshiva student from his house at 1 AM just last night.

AAQ – When speaking about how different communities are מחזק each other, I didn’t mean necessarily by direct contact and interaction, although that does happen to some extent. Simply knowing that some Jews out there, who also live in 5785 and deal with many of the same challenges you do, are better than you in field X, can often inspire one to invest at least a little more effort in that field than one otherwise would have been inclined. That idea actually was codified by the Rambam in Hilchos Deios, about the importance of where one lives and who one associates with, but the sources goes back to Tanach and Chazal in multiple places – הולך את חכמים יחכם and more. (Not דווקא one who is לומד מחכמים, even just הולך, to hang around with חכמים.)

The point you made about Rav Soloveitchik is לכאורה correct.

Yaakov Yosef A:
That means that of course they are doing more shmad now.

Zionism is shmad, of course.
For example, the wicked Zionists are pushing the filth that is Zionist heresy and idolatry to all the millions of schoolchildren in their school systems (except for the chareidim who know better than to take Zionist money).

YYA, ok I agree on mutual influence. Same happened before between chassidim and misnagdim. A similar issue is discussed in how is better to learn – one place or rmany? General advice is – firest learn basics from one place to make sure you are not missing material and then go earn from multiple places to learn different methods.

HaKatan – The wicked Israeli Left (ערב רב) is pushing all kinds of filthy progressive ‘treif alphabet soup’ ideology, as well as kefirah and sometimes avoda zara (‘Bagrut’ points for studying other religions in high school, for example. Did you know about that?). They aborted more Jewish babies than the Nazis killed children in the Holocaust (2,000,000 plus vs. about 1,500,000, so much for them caring about ‘Jewish continuity’). They do all kinds of filthy and wicked things you don’t even know about. But they are so far off that they don’t even believe in ‘Zionism’ any more… So, when you yell about ‘Zionism’, you miss the point. It’s like the whole point of what they are doing is just to try to get you to say ‘Zionism’, and then they trapped your Neshama… Knowing the enemy (and who the real enemy is) is the most critical thing in battle (not trying to plagiarize Sun Tsu). Many, if not most ‘RZ’ people today in Israel, are significantly more ehrlich than the average MO in America. Some RZ are basically Chareidim in different clothing, and with some idealism about building settlements etc. They aren’t Kofrim. Neither are Belz and Vizhnitz and Ger… (Who do take limited money from the Medinah.) The real bad guys (who are dwindling in numbers) don’t even call themselves Zionists. Try Googling ‘Post-Zionism’, or read a little about the ‘Bagatz’ and the ‘Rotschild protests’. Half of what you write is dated and no longer correct, and the other half is correct, but it isn’t ‘Zionism’ any more. Understanding the issues better, and targeting your bullets where they belong, will make your message more effective and less offensive.

As usual , somejew and katan are taking rightful causes, blow them up , distort them , and then claim that their corrupted one is the only version of Judaism around.

The fight with z is a valid one .

The portrayal of z as if it were xtianity is nothing more than a grotesque distortion of Judaism.

Somejew and katan are USING righteous and valid grievances in order to do some convenient soul snatching …..
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Even more evidence that the Agudath Israel organization is pro-Israel:

Yeshivah World News said this:

“Agudath Israel of America expresses its appreciation
to Ambassador Nikki Haley, whose service in
the United Nations over the past nearly
two years has been exemplary.”

“Ambassador Haley’s voice was clear and consistent
in championing the causes of human rights
and democracy across the globe.”

“Her strong support of Israel and articulate defense
of its security made her a deeply respected figure
in the Orthodox Jewish community.”

“Agudath Israel represents and among citizens of
goodwill of all faiths. She will be long remembered
as a fearless fighter against the pervasive
anti-Israel hypocrisy of the United Nations.”

“We wish Ambassador Haley well as she leaves
her post, and look forward to working with her
again in the years ahead in whatever form
of public service she may undertake.”

SOURCE: article titled: “Statement Of Agudath Israel
Of America On The Resignation Of Nikki Haley
US Ambassador To The United Nations”
2018 October 10 at 9:30 AM by The Yeshiva World [News]
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1602773/statement-of-agudath-israel-of-america-on-the-resignation-of-nikki-haley-us-ambassador-to-the-united-nations.html
______________________________
Fanatical anti-Zionists will never listen to this,
because they foolishly believe that they know
the will of the Gedolim better than
the leaders of Agudath Israel.
THEY DO NOT!!

Yaakov Yosef A and ZSK:
That is also Zionism, especially as per their current leader’s teacher’s teacher. Jabotinsky wrote that the new Hebrew Zionist, the replacement of the Jew, will be the exact opposite of the Jew (he misappropriated the term “ipcha mistabra”). When you look at a real Jew and see his characteristics, the new Hebrew Zionist replacement of the Jew will be the opposite.

This is pretty stunning, if you think about that. Both the Christians and Muslims each gained tremendously from their exposure to Torah and their respective corruptions of the Torah in service of their respective invented religions. But the Zionists are a very different breed than even the Christians and Muslims, according to this Zionist. Take a look at a real Jew and imagine his opposite – not “just” becoming nationalist idolaters and Esav and the like.

But, no, Zionism is very much alive there. Zionism holds, at a minimum, that Jews are a nation-state-based nation like all other nations and that the Zionist paradise is the nation-state of the Jewish people. All of that is false, heretical and (of course) abominable, but very much alive today, unfortunately.

And since you mentioned “Religious Zionists”: again, the facts are that “Religious Zionism” is heresy and idolatry. The Chazon Ish held that the wine of a Mizrachi is yayin nesech. Anyone (not just “Religious Zionists”) who believe in even the slightest deviation from the Torah is a heretic. If you claim there are some “Religious Zionists” who fully believe in the Torah and not at all in Nationalism and other heresies – like anyone else – but happen to be pro-settler or whatever, then that’s a different matter and that means that they (and only they) are not “Religious Zionists” in that sense of the word. I’m not looking to judge anyone CH”V; but we do need to be clear on the facts and ideologies.

SQUARE_ROOT:
Yes, their lay leadership does come across that way because they are concerned about the Jewish lives there, and they therefore think that advocating for the Zionist “government” is needed to help the Jews there under Zionist control. That seems to be the lay leaders’ logic.

IzoBar: The Jews living in the Arab countries for thousands of years before Zionism, lived there *relatively* peacefully for thousands of years. Yes, there were exceptions every now and then and you cited to examples. But you don’t have that many examples.

If you want, you can find prominent examples of antisemitism even in the US, the Leo Frank case, Henry Ford, Father Charles Coughlin, etc. Do you consider Americans to be antisemites?

The truth is we are living in Golus, and in Golus antisemitism is the rule and not the exception. Everywhere in Golus antisemitism is to be expected, from the time our bitter Golus began 2,000 years ago about through today. And that applies everywhere; in Europe (most prominently), in the Arab countries, in the State of Israel and in the United States and elsewhere.

By contrast, Jews living in Europe experienced murderous violent antisemitism every Monday and Thursday. Not to mention that the Europeans from Rome destroyed the Bais Hamikdash and attempted their first genocide in Yerushalayim and Eretz Yisroel; and not long thereafter Bar Kochba revolt they crushed. And ever since.

Compare how the Jews in Spain fared. Under Muslim rule the Jews in Spain lived in the golden age; when the Christians took over Spain, the Jews faced violence, forced conversions to Christianity and, finally, expulsion and the Inquisition with Jews being burnt at the stake.

The Europeans committed the Crusades multiple times, blood libels ongoing for centuries and centuries, expulsions of Jews from almost every European country that had Jews, at one time or another (including England, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, etc.) over hundreds of years, confined to ghettos throughout Europe,, blamed for the Black Death persecutions, murdering 100,000 Jews in Tach V’Tat/Khmelnytsky Massacres in Ukraine, Dreyfus Affair, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, many murderous Pograms, etc. etc. etc.

And, of course, the biggest of them all, the Holocaust, when Europe murdered 6,000,000 Jews just a few decades ago, with survivors of that still alive with us today.

Indeed, the whole European Christian Church is explicitly built upon the claim that the Jews killed their “god”; and what on earth can be worse than killing “god”. So the Europeans had a ready-made excuse to justify their centuries and millenia of anti-Jewish violence, murder and genocide.

The Arabs never came close to the above; not even a drop in the bucket, by comparison. The reality is that Jews lived under Arab rule for thousands of years, prior to the advent of Zionism, *mostly* peacefully.

Indeed, by comparison, throughout Golus, from all the places that many Jews resided in, those living under Arab rule fared the best; far better than the countries that had many Jews outside the Arab lands.

Unlike the Jews in Europe.

IzoBar:
You are ignoring the reality that the Jews did indeed live in peace with the Arabs prior to the Zionist invasion over a century ago and, yes, it is exactly Zionism that is the reason for the forever wars there that the Zionists caused.

With all due respect to R’ Baruch Kaplan, his understanding of the Chevron massacre was historically inaccurate because of how tensions built up for a week and a half prior. Some frum groups asked the Waqf for permission to use a mechitzah at the Kosel on Tisha B’av; a far cry from the boogeymen who the anti-Zionists on this forum describe. The Mufti then used that as a pretext for claiming Jews wanted to take over al-Aqsa. Violent incidents based on this claim as a motive didn’t start in Chevron, the pressure keg exploded in Jerusalem first.
This was recorded at the time in the Palestine Post and other Hebrew-language newspapers published then. That’s why there were Zionist youths riding around Chevron on motorcycles a day prior; they knew what was happening and legitimately patrolled to protect its Jewish community. No Zionist CAUSED the massacre, although the Old Yishuv has slightly more blame (they didn’t directly cause it either); nobody knew what that simple request would cause.
It is highly unlikely that anyone in the Chevron Yeshiva was reading printed daily versions of the Palestine Post, Haaretz, or any other newspapers. Saying they did contradicts the whole function of what yeshivas of that nature are intended to be. If one doesn’t know current events, and it then affects them, it’s entirely inaccurate that it’s targeting them personally. One who doesn’t know about rising tensions will be caught ill-prepared and certainly does not have an entirely accurate picture of what happened.
Anyone who wants to challenge this series of events as described should review archives of the Palestine Post, Haaretz, and other Jewish dailies in Palestine and abroad, roughly between August 15-28, 1929. You’ll see how tensions climbed from Tisha B’av onward, regardless of individuals who chose to ignore it. Much of this is available as scans from the National Library of Israel; publicly accessible on their website page of Historical Jewish Press.
Mr. HaKatan and his ilk have never responded to such claims because there is no answer. Leave me on read and ignore this if you’d like; this isn’t for you but for anyone who actually cares about historical accuracy, not political soapbox.

the despicable murderers of chevron are the ones who are responsible .

lo tirtsach is said for them too

they hacked people to death

let’s not forget that

—

it is legitimate however to discuss what the jews could/ should do to minimize bloodshed

but we cannot forget for one moment who is responsible for barbaric murder – the barbaric murderer himself.
.
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ujm – there is a great little pamphlet circulating now on the draft issue called הכלבים צועקים… You would love it. It doesn’t use the word ציוני or ציונות even once, and it quotes many RZ Rabbanim and Roshei Yeshivot Hesder on their perspective on tzniyus issues in the IDF (among other things). Whoever wrote it understands exactly what ZSK and I are talking about.

It appears my response to HaKatan was banned by the mods.

Suffice it to say that HaKatan is once again lying and misrepresenting the RZ Tzibbur per usual.

Contrary to what he claims, is in fact looking to judge anyone he possibly can in the worst possible light.

And like I said in that post – “J’accuse”. And I mean it. (If you don’t what that means, go look up what it means in the context of Judenhasse.)

chief,
I would not fully discard the theory that it is Zionist fault. Of course, arrivals of so many people trying to establish a state ignited opposition.
But this has to be balanced against the real need to save Jews, both physically and spiritually, from the dangers of Europe and later Arab countries and USSR. Was Uganda an alternative to create a safe place for all Yidden and keep EY for only a small religious community? Possibly. But then everyone who hold by 3 shevuos should have spend their energy looking for the right Uganda, As it stands, Zionists saved lots of people, and RZ influenced them to the degree they could.

In some cases, Zionists under-performed because of their ideological bias. for example, starting mid-20s, they consolidated funding via sochnut instead of previous private efforts. As a result, money were directed to kibbutzim – both to hold the land and to propagate the “way of life”. Kibbutzim always required support, as all socialist enterprises anywhere … The alternative, previously advocated by gevirim, was to invest in the manufacturing base in Tel Aviv – that was creating jobs. As a result, many in Europe, including Germany, were reluctant to come because of the lack of jobs.

SQUARE_ROOT:
You seem very confused. Please take this discussion to a competent local orthodox rabbi.

AAQ:
As it is, the Zionists SAVED lots of people, you wrote? The Zionists are responsible for death and destruction, physical and spiritual, of millions of Jews since they started over a century ago (including the Holocaust). An arsonist could run over with a fire hose and put out a little bit of the fire that burned down a big building that the arsonist, himself started – to use the Satmar Rav’s mashal.

katan > As it is, the Zionists SAVED lots of people, you wrote? The Zionists are responsible for death and destruction, physical and spiritual, of millions of Jews since they started over a century ago (including the Holocaust). An arsonist could run over with a fire hose and put out a little bit of the fire that burned down a big building that the arsonist, himself started – to use the Satmar Rav’s mashal.

You start going specific and then regress to general rhetoric. Try to stay on topic. There are specific large groups of people saved due to Zionists and Medinah either physically or spiritually from assimilation (we have R Schach to confirm that it matters by his analysis that Arab anti-semitism was calused by danger of Zionist assimilation): pre-war arrivals from Europe, post WW2 survivors, Sephardim in 1950-60s, Rusim in 1970-90s. American BTs who were excited about 6-day war. Who did they destroy? As I mentioned before, my theory is that it was a choice for non-religious Jews to be a Zionist, a Bundist, a Communist, or a gvir in Amerika. I don’t think there were people who contemplated between becoming a Stamar chusid or a kibutznik. Zionism was the best choice for their survival.