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somejew – The story about the Chazon Ish doesn’t say so. לועג על דברי חכמים, certainly the way the Chazon Ish understood it, is something many ostensibly Chareidi people do in various ways. Learn the Sugya in Sanhedrin. Zionism has many problems, but not necessarily לועג על דברי חכמים, although it may be a big risk factor.
First, it is very refreshing that anti z position here is defended by a small but determined group that is not very eloquent. I could have written better responses for them. It really indicates that wider thinking charedim do not hold by that.
Also, just heard in R Lebowitz kinos about baryonim who wanted to put spear in r Yochanan to verify that he is niftar: people with agenda will eventually go to great lengths in defending their position.
ZSK said – We’d can be sure we’d be better off if the entire Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim publicly admitted their past positions toward Zionism were a Hora’as sha’ah that are no longer relevant and instead joined the rest of the Orthodox Tzibbur, got jobs, helped the RZ community turn the IDF into something respectable and paid taxes like they are supposed to.
Past issues with Zionism are not the reason for the present issues you mentioned. Most Chassidim do have jobs. There are different issues in Eretz Yisroel and Chutz Laaretz.
We’d also be better off the RZ and MO communities stopped compromising on Orthodox values to please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors, coworkers, colleagues, etc.
The main thing preventing them from doing so even more is that they see the example of the Chareidim. (Something Reb Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik said in his day about American MO and Satmar…)
And we’d be better off if the non-Orthodox communities just admitted they are essentailly bagel flavored progressivism and not attempt to speak for Judaism.
They have no way of figuring that out on their own, because for the most part they know nothing about real Judaism. The solution is not to ‘accept’ their matzav, but to be מקרב them. The rest will die out within three generations from assimilation, like half of them already did.
Calling any Jew a ‘galach’ ‘sheigitz’ etc. is disgusting, and accomplishes nothing to get your point across.
@smerel
it is obvious that being zionist is worse than being xtian, both for the rushe and for the yiddishe tzibor.MR Somejewiknow. It is not obvious to me in the slightest that that is true. In fact I think those who believe such things are bordering on heresy and have created a new religion that revolves on their opposition to . But I’m an open minded guy. Please explain to me why this is so obvious in clear simple terms that even I can understand. USING MAAREH MOKOMOS ONLY. No boich svoras or frothing at the mouth, raving, hatred that you usually get when extreme anti-Zionists to explain their beliefs
@YYA – I was mostly making a rhetorical point that the same can be said about the Charedi and Chassidish Tzibburim and that Mr. somejewiknow should have never said what he did. He certainly should not have posted it two days before Tisha B’Av.
AAQ:
Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists. The wicked Zionists created a cataclysmic mess in the holy land, and need billions of dollars each year to keep their idol “State” going. Like by the baryonim, the wicked Zionists wanted to force Jews to fight wars in the Jews’ land rather than letting them live in peace, as we just learned in the gemara in gittin over 9 Av.@smerel
it’s very simple Xtianity long ago stopped claiming (in a meaningful way, especially vis-a-vis common judaism) that it is the real Judaism.
Zionism, on the other hand, still claims itself a valid form of (or at least compatible with) Judaism.That prefaning of the holy makes it much worse than just going of to India and, chv”sh, worshiping a getchke.
This might allow the argument that Jews for Zionism is the same evil as Jews for J.
(neither are great methods of kiruv)YYA> please their non-Orthodox and gentile neighbors … The main thing preventing them from doing so even more is that they see the example of the Chareidim.
I am sure this happens somewhere, but I do not see it in day-to-day MO community. I see, one one head, occasional clashes between some progressives that advocate for some feminist direction, making symmetric men and women sections, etc and opposite reaction from the rest. The reaction is principled, not because “satmar will stop davening by us”. Wherever there is a reason to participate in some activities with other groups, nobody looks at chareid reaction either.
And if you compare R Soloveitchik and R Moshe teshuvot on entering non-O places of worship, R Moshe comes a little more permissive, in my opinion.
AAQ – Not because ‘Satmar will stop davening by us’ or because of ‘Chareidi reaction’. Simply by seeing that there are people who (usually/in general/in many areas/disclaimer of your choice) do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ. Not because they are afraid of anyone, but because they are also Jewish and they also want to be ehrlich and this silently reminds them that they can be better. Again, I am referring to those areas in which Chareidim do in fact do better than MO. No intention to start a debate on the relative merits of either group. The same can also be said of the symbiotic relationship of all different groups of observant Jews, (Sephardim, Litvish, Chassidish, the serious RZ, and all variations of the above), who each excel in some way, and inspire others to be better too.
I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship. No one, not even Satmar etc., ever remotely suggested that entering a MO/RZ Shul (at least normal mainstream MO that conform to basic Halacha) is in any way comparable to a non-Orthodox בית הכסא.
ZSK – I was also disgusted by the language used, and especially the timing, and I let him know that too. I’m starting to think that the real reason some people are so fixated on fighting ‘Zionism’ is that it ‘allows’ them to copy-paste harsh language from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue, and apply it to anyone they don’t like now, without feeling guilty – because such-and-such a Rov/Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva ‘also said that’ (in a completely different era and context). Even back then, usually by the time these ‘statements’ attributed to Gedolim made it to street level or to biographies of questionable accuracy, much was added and embellished… The Chazon Ish and the Satmar Rov (for example) wrote many seforim. Someone who wants to see what they definitely did say can look there. But it’s more exciting to quote apocryphal (and ‘juicy’) stories…
hakatan > Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists.
You can see some comparison between non-rel Zs of yesteryear with baryonim, although not fully. For one difference, they did not go into a fight with a superpower burning their own supplies. For another, you’d like that – baryonim were not violating 3 shvuos, they were there already. This is worth a good discusssion, but it takes away from our core disagreement – about RZ that are mostly not like that. And I brought a counter-argument several times – all minorities in middle east suffered in last 100 years, was it possible to live peacefully there? I don’t think you answered that. This is some contrast with Roman Empire – they were brutal to those who rebelled as a preventive policy, but they were often benefitting those who submitted to them.
@YYA – You’re likely right. By perpetuating a mostly irrelevant issue and insisting they are on the “right side of history” (for lack of a better term), they are giving themselves carte-blanche to be as nasty and rude as possible.
As it happens, I may harshly criticize the Charedi Tzibbur at large, but it is not out of actual hatred or malice.
>>>@somejewinknow it’s very simple Xtianity long ago stopped claiming (in a meaningful way, especially vis-a-vis common judaism) that it is the real Judaism. Zionism, on the other hand, still claims itself a valid form of (or at least compatible with) Judaism.
OK You have such a belief. Explain why it is obvious that what you are saying is true from a Torah perspective with maareh mokomos
YYA> do more for their Yiddishkeit, is מחזק the MO/RZ.
that might be. I see it mostly through Charedi teachers in MO schools. Maybe by some MO professionals coming to learn with kollelnikim. Mabe, some youngsters starting coming to a Charedi minyan feeling “frummer”. Otherwise, those in MO community who are serious about their observance and pretty self-sufficient. Those who are less serious, look up to those who are. When I mention an opinion of one of the Charedi rabbis in the community, some of MO people never met them and barely heard of them. Maybe it is different in other places.
> I didn’t understand what is the connection with the שיטה of R’ Moshe vs. R’ Yoshe Ber WRT entering non-Orthodox places of worship.
I meant that R Soloveitchik is stricter towards non-O because he, and his community, has more chances of interactions and it is both a more frequent issue and a need for more strictness. For Rav Moshe, it is a question whether you can enter for a funeral. For R Soloveitchik, a question from a student whether he can be a Rabbi in a shul with mixed seating; or an invitation for a shul opening dinner in honor of the Rabbi who is a personal friend; or an issue of listening to Shofar on R’H when there is no alternative (answer in all cases is “no”, the last one – “the easiest question I was ever asked”)
@AAQ
“….anti z position here is defended by a small but determined group that is not very eloquent. I could have written better responses for them.”
It’s funny you say that. I was literally considering doing just that.
Yaakov Yosef A:
“…from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue…”
This is one of the sillier Zionist memes.Many years ago, the wicked Zionists were doing atrocities like yaldei teiman and yaldei tehran and all the rest. But even if they aren’t literally throwing away people’s priceless sefarim as they dock in Haifa, they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).
As well, right now, the wicked Zionists are pulling out all the stops to close the yeshivos there. As you can read on the Jewish blogs like YWN, their gestapo attempted to take away a yeshiva student from his house at 1 AM just last night.
somejewiknow:
Zionism is much worse, actually.Zionism is the wholesale replacement of Judaism and Jews with, instead godless and idolatrous/nationalist Zionism and Zionists. Zionism doesn’t claim only to be compatible with Judaism. Zionism claims to **be** Judaism, discarding G-d, the Torah and our rich and beautiful heritage (including much of our history) in the process.
(The “Religious Zionists” simply add back on a little of the Torah (and G-d). As the Brisker Rav published, and many signed on to the same, “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.)
AAQ – When speaking about how different communities are מחזק each other, I didn’t mean necessarily by direct contact and interaction, although that does happen to some extent. Simply knowing that some Jews out there, who also live in 5785 and deal with many of the same challenges you do, are better than you in field X, can often inspire one to invest at least a little more effort in that field than one otherwise would have been inclined. That idea actually was codified by the Rambam in Hilchos Deios, about the importance of where one lives and who one associates with, but the sources goes back to Tanach and Chazal in multiple places – הולך את חכמים יחכם and more. (Not דווקא one who is לומד מחכמים, even just הולך, to hang around with חכמים.)
The point you made about Rav Soloveitchik is לכאורה correct.
HaKatan said – they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).
They aren’t DOING more shmad now… Those Israelis are the grandchildren of the ones the old Zionists tore away from Yiddishkeit BACK THEN. The larger numbers reflect population growth over 70 years. (As opposed to secular Jews in חוץ לארץ whose numbers shrink due to rampant assimilation…) That is a terrible מצב, but the way to fight it is not by screaming (at other Chareidim no less…) about ‘Zionism’, but by doing more Kiruv, or helping those who do so.
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