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OK Oomis, heard you, got it.
No mothers.
What do you say when a guys wants to see a photo before he dates?
Looks are subjective. And he wants to see for himself how she looks before they go out. So?
And btw, you’re making me very curious where you live/ what community you’re part of. You mention often how important it is for a girl to be neat & for a guy (found this on another thread) to brush his hair and teeth and shower (!!!!) before he goes out. I never came across a guy (or girl) that needed instruction in basic hygiene before a date. Admittedly some look more pressed and put together than others, but unbrushed teeth (Ewww) ? What gives?
We all care! Tell us the truth!
Some people think a girl who wears a size 12 or 14 dress is overweight – Lucille Ball was that size, and she never looked overweight to me.
I don’t believe that’s possible. She looks more like a size 2 or 4. I’m a size 4 for anyone who wondered and she looks thinner than me. I think you mean Marilyn Monroe and even she looks thinner than that.
OK Oomis, heard you, got it.
No mothers.
What do you say when a guys wants to see a photo before he dates?
Looks are subjective. And he wants to see for himself how she looks before they go out. So?
And btw, you’re making me very curious where you live/ what community you’re part of. You mention often how important it is for a girl to be neat & for a guy (found this on another thread) to brush his hair and teeth and shower (!!!!) before he goes out. I never came across a guy (or girl) that needed instruction in basic hygiene before a date. Admittedly some look more pressed and put together than others, but unbrushed teeth (Ewww) ? What gives? “
Golfer – I am opposed to ANYONE, boy or girl stipulating to seeing a pic of the prospective shidduch before they will deem them worthy of meeting them. Pictures lie. And someone’s personality can affect their looks. There are visually stunning people who are so self-absorbed and shallow, that when you get to know them, they are a total turn-off. There are some plainer, but really wonderful people who get to be more attractive as the date wears on, because their sense of humor or personality is so sparkling, that it takes you by surprise.
This inyan about seeing a photo is relatively new. Ten years ago, no one would have had the chutzpah to demand such a thing before arranging a blind date. For the shadchan to MEET the young man or woman prior to making an arrangement – yes. That makes total sense. But for the prospective in-laws or boy and girl?????? For a chevra that is hung up on seeing lack of tznius everywhere, it frankly disturbs me greatly that this ever became a thing to do.
As to my community? I live in a frum, non-Brooklyn neighborhood. I know people whose kids have dated people from an eclectic set of demographics, and yes, there have been times that some dates have been less than well-groomed. As I do not want to ascribe this fault to any one group of guys (or girls, but you see it more with guys), I will refrain from doing so. If any guy reading this is guilty of not taking sufficient pride in his appearance and personal hygiene, then hamayvin yavin.
What do contemporary Poskim say about this practice of asking for pictures?
Can you believe it? The topic is shidduchim, and oomis and I agree!
DY, Moshiach is DEFINITELY coming!!!!!!!
Some people think a girl who wears a size 12 or 14 dress is overweight – Lucille Ball was that size, and she never looked overweight to me.
I don’t believe that’s possible. She looks more like a size 2 or 4. I’m a size 4 for anyone who wondered and she looks thinner than me. I think you mean Marilyn Monroe and even she looks thinner than that. “
Interjection, I just looked it up for confirmation. Lucille Ball was indeed a size 12. Vivian Vance was about 10 lbs. heavier, but made to look frumpier, so she would look much heavier than Lucy.
No one would look at Lucille Ball and think she was fat. But by our foolish standards today, she most certainly would be considered to be un-shidduch worthy (by weight alone), were a shadchan to be asked to redt her a shidduch. That, IMO is beyond sick.
Oomis: I looked up her measurements and I checked those measurements on Nordstroms website and those measurements are a size 00. She did wear baggy clothes so I estimate her clothes to be a 2-4. In the past 20 years, clothes sizing has changed due to ‘vanity sizing’, meaning that people like knowing that their clothes are a smaller size so the manufacturers changed the numbers for each measurement. Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 in vintage sizing but nowadays she would be a size 8.
Interjection, I just looked it up for confirmation. Lucille Ball was indeed a size 12.
I think it is commonly understood that there has been size deflation since Lucille Ball’s days, and that she would be a 6 or so in today’s sizes.
Try pulling an outfit out of your grandmother’s wardrobe and putting it on.
Oomis, on a personal level, I totally agree with you.
This new phenomenon of attaching photos to resumes is extremely distasteful, to say the least.
And completely weird when you consider the fact that the whole system of shidduchim was instituted to preserve tzniyus during the process of people meeting members of the opposite sex to set up a Jewish home be’Kdusha uve’Tahara.
The first time I opened an email attachment expecting to see a neatly typed resume and saw a photo instead (Yes, I know all you computer savvy people out there- you would’ve known before you opened it)- I jumped! Literally. Was that a hack? Why is there a picture of a pretty girl with long hair and lots of makeup on my computer screen?!?
Of course, while I may emphatically agree with oomis, I am in no position to agree or comment on the quotes from Talmidei Chachamim provided by DY. Except perhaps to say that I do feel a bit validated and thank DY for providing them.
What I was wondering, oomis, was- Why are you fixated on boys’ mothers looking at pictures of prospective candidates? I’ve been puzzled for a while by the vilification and demonization of boys’ mothers. Presumably the guys in question, if they’re out searching for a wife, are adults. They’re actively involved in the pursuit. (I know there are circles where the parents are extremely involved in the process, and the young people only meet briefly, but those are not the circles passing around photos on the internet.) I would prefer to lay the blame directly in their laps.
I’ve tried to redt shidduchim where I’ve been told the young man won’t consider it unless I provide a picture. I’m left with the choice of requesting a picture (which makes me very uncomfortable) and passing it on (makes me even much more uncomfortable), or dropping the shidduch.
Maybe it would be a good idea to have professional shadchanim all agree not to provide pictures. This idea, I think, has the prospects of that famous snowball in a very hot location. Shadchanim are loathe to implement any changes to the “rules” that have been arbitrarily, often foolishly, implemented for dealing with shidduchim. I’m about as far from professional as a shadchan can be, and I don’t see people lining up to take advice from me.
So my question to you was (and remains)-
What do we do with the guys who want to see a picture of a girl?
I thought my earlier post was quite long enough, maybe more than long enough. I did want to add, however, that I see nothing wrong with a man or woman wanting to be married to someone whose appearance they find pleasing. It is always advisable- and in fact this has always been the practice- that the man and woman see each other before the engagement (eirusin) takes place.
I also find it completely irrelevant to the discussion whether men now prefer brunettes when they used to prefer blondes, whether men prefer extremely thin women when they used to look for more rotund partners, or how society may or may not have changed with regards to viewing physical characteristics.
What I take issue with is the nonsensical assumption that this situation will in any way be enhanced by a young man receiving a photo of a young woman before going on a date.
Girl: optimism, vatrunis, self sufficient
Boy: mentch, yirei shamayim, honesty
Why I seem fixated on the boys’ mothers is because I have never yet met a girl’s mom who demanded to see a pic prior to saying ok. The boys themselves, especially if yeshivish, are not so involved in the process in my experience. Is that they case 100% of the time? I am sure not. But I have seen it over and over in the last ten years. I have many friends who are by the book followers of the shidduch “rules” and they were the arbiters of whether or not a girl was good enough for their sons. Often, they wanted to see a picture first, even though the girl had alle mailos.
1) A desire to accomplish something in life as a Jew. For that you need marriage to a decent person. This is very different from the goal of gaining a romantic high or fun times where you need an exact match.
2) A connection to Hashem and Judaism. People who lack that connection seek perfection in a shiduch where it does not happen. Only Hashem and Torah are perfect.
3) A handle on reality. Unrealistic people want the world, want the impossible, want contradictions. Realistic people know what they have to offer and can see the same in others.
Thank you, oomis, for never failing to respond to a post.
*Most Courteous Poster Award* goes to you, as usual.
(I sincerely hope Miss SUC will forgive me for handing out awards.)
But- No answer to my question?
-How would you, as a would-be shadchan, or as a hypothetical girl in shidduchim (or her mother), answer with my question??
(Of course this question is also open to other posters. But doesn’t seem to have stirred up much interest. Or thought.)
A true statement.
But I’ll give you another true statement: young people are nearly all attractive, older people not so much. Get married young when you still have your looks.
Golfer: the reason no one has responded is because you’re preaching to the choir. Anyone who likes the idea of pictures before agreeing to date, will continue to do so. Anyone who is against, will continue to be upset about it.
How would you, as a would-be shadchan, or as a hypothetical girl in shidduchim. (or her mother), answer with my question??
Can a hypothetical father answer the question?
Not trying to preach, interjection.
Trying to figure out- What would you do if you tried to redt a shidduch to a guy and he said he’d only listen if he got a picture?
-Would you grit your teeth and get one to send?
-Would you drop the whole thing?
And what if you were not the shadchan but the girl (or girl’s mom)?
-Would you give your photo to shadchanim?
Sure-
Fathers, and hypothetical fathers- Welcome!
I would not send a picture. If it were for the boy to see, I would probably nix the shidduch. If the mother wanted to see it, I wouldn’t send it either (she is not the one who needs to find pleasing aesthetics), but I would still consider the shidduch if they were willing to go ahead without the picture. (I am b”H a real father, but the situation is hypothetical).
Now, golfer (and anyone else out there, real or hypothetical), what would you do if the mother wanted to meet the girl first?
Golfer: could be I got the idiom confused. I meant that people who hate this idea of pictures will continue to hate them and people who like the pics will continue to like them.
As for myself, I told the shadchan that if a guy needs a picture then I’d rather not go out with him than send a picture because I find the whole pictures thing to be nauseating and creepy. I gave her my work address (although it was on the resume to begin with) and said if someone so badly needed to see what I look like, they were invited to come down to my work and go spying.
At the time I had facebook and I had a really blurry picture as my profile picture so I told a shadchan she could look me up on facebook since she wasn’t in the same city as me.
Honestly I don’t think it’s as nauseating if the boy’s mother needs to see as if the boy himself needs to see it. Let’s be honest, if you send a picture to a mother, probably she’s going to look at it just to decide if her son will be mad that she set him up with an ‘ugly’ girl and she’s just making sure he’s not ugly. If you send it to the boy he’s looking at it to see if she gets him ‘excited’ and then he’ll likely show it to his friends to see if they have the same reaction.
Interesting question, DY.
Right now the question is hypothetical for me too.
Somehow I’ve never found this as offensive as sending a picture.
The idea of a picture being passed around on the internet to people I don’t know, and the idea that the other party wants to see a two dimensional (possibly photo-shopped, haha!) picture before they see the real live wonderful girl, makes me cringe.
On the other hand the mother (or parents) wanting to actually meet her doesn’t bother me as much. I’ve always felt that in this respect the girls’ parents have a huge advantage. They meet and speak to the guy before he takes their daughter out. If she wants to discuss things with them afterwards they understand her better since they’ve all met him. This sure beats her texting all her friends after the date to get their opinions. (Common practice I’ve heard, but a no-no in my book.) The boy’s parents are in the dark, and if he does have a concern that he wants to hear their opinion about, they can’t be as helpful.
I’d probably ask that the meeting be included somehow in the first date.
But fair’s fair. If I, Mrs Hypothetical Girl’s Mom, get to meet the guy, no reason his mother can’t have a word (or two) with my daughter.
***
I have heard of a practice that I found strange, distasteful, and a little hard to believe, wherein the boy’s mother and the girl both show up at a prearranged location and don’t speak at all (!!!) but the boy’s mother gets to see how she looks.
I would never agree to anything of this nature. And would drop the shidduch if it was suggested. What? They can’t act civilized and say hello to each other? And the boy’s mother wants to look at her (Why?) but has no interest in engaging her in any conversation?
(If I was the hypothetical girl I’d probably embarrass myself by flicking a glance in the matriarch’s direction and saying something like “the eagle flies at dawn” or “Winston was my dearest friend” then choking on a fit of giggles.)
I’m curious if anyone else has ever heard of this. Snopes, anyone?
On the other hand the mother (or parents) wanting to actually meet her doesn’t bother me as much.
****
I have heard of a practice that I found strange, distasteful, and a little hard to believe, wherein the boy’s mother and the girl both show up at a prearranged location and don’t speak at all (!!!) but the boy’s mother gets to see how she looks.
I would never agree to anything of this nature.
Agree with both.
Thank you, oomis, for never failing to respond to a post.
*Most Courteous Poster Award* goes to you, as usual.
(I sincerely hope Miss SUC will forgive me for handing out awards.)”
Golfer, I thank you most sincerely, because I value THAT particular description of me.
To try to answer you more thoroughly, MOST boys do not ask for a picture, in my particular experience (which is not to say it doesn’t happen elsewhere). However, I feel that where this DOES happen, it is because it has in many cases lost the stigma of being a really impolite thing to do. A fine, TOP boy, can and should be attracted to his date/mate (so should everyone). But a fine top boy (and are they not ALL?) should not focus in on the externals before even MEETING the girl. That is simply inconsistent with the hashkafa that I have been led to believe is Ratzon Hashem. If she is a baalas middos, ehrliche frum, and looking to build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel, those are qualities that do not tend to fade with time. If she is also pretty in HIS eyes, that’s icing on an already well made cake.
If I were a shadchan, I would want to find common ground between the boys and girls. I would NEVER give a picture of the boy OR girl out, and if someone insisted, I would not make that shidduch. Period. That shows me the person is more interested in dating the picture than the person. The was once a story of a wealthy man who sent a picture of his wallet to a dinner committee that wanted to honor him. He sent along a note basically stating that as it was clear it was his money that they wanted to honor, he would just as soon stay home, and send his wallet in his stead.
The way I heard it:
For a boy:
1. Has a Rav
2. Davens with a minyan 3x a day
3. Has a daily learning seder
For a girl:
1. Middos
2. Middos
3. Middos
And for the boy, 1a, 2a, and 3a are middos.
Update:
Got clear, indisputable answer to my question.
Not here in the CR from CR members.
But here on yeshivaworld.com. (No links, so look it up for yourselves.)
Now it’s up to all the dating bachelors who entertain us in the CR, to read the article and pass around the info to all their friends.
As influential CR posters, I’m sure they have the necessary clout and powers of persuasion to assure us of a satisfactory outcome. Namely, that pictures of young ladies in shidduchim be henceforth verboten.
They usually let us link to YWN articles.
Don’t worry about qualities, etc – just let your parents hook you up.
My top 3 requirements are:
2 eyes and 1 nose.
Honest
Kind
Empathetic
Healthy self esteem
Non judgmental
Flexible
Has healthy goals, dreams for the future
1. Chein – looks (see above) is deceptive. The ikar is chein – is the girl pleasant to look at. Is there that special look that a boy feels lovely feelings for… Obviously choosing based on a checklist of sizes etc. is dumb. But you know what – tough luck. There are guys who like to have their wife wear things (not necessarily untznius) that are from a outside perspective “interesting” – an odd lipstick, a certain color skirt etc. Do these things make sense? No. But kvetching in articles is not going to get a guy to not like an odd shaitel haircut or funky glasses. Just deal. Everyone has their own bashert and your non-bashert does not need to want to marry you.
2. Extremely good middos. The vast majority of frum yidden have good middos when facing a situation of relative calm. When things start getting complex in life, marriage lessens the number with “great middos”. Find a girl that has really, really good middos. REALLY GOOD MIDDOS. Not stam. Find a girl whose stories make you pause in awe. Wow, she is really nice. If she says tehillim, smiles, and does not have a record of disciplinary problems – she might be a very nice girl – but you can’t claim (as of yet) that she has “good middos”. It’s like a guy in yeshiva who shows up the vast majority of sedarim and davens 3x a day – he might be a gadol, but you can’t learn out that he is a ‘good learner’ from being in yeshiva and learning. What else was he supposed to be doing? Of course, it’s not a knock for doing what’s right – I am saying it is not a proof.
3. Similar backgrounds/goals. Not everyone has to be from the same place or same background – but you have to be on the same page. Finances, long-term plans, family dynamics. Of course, the first year/two/three you might agree on being in Kollel or living in Hoopitsville – but long term do you shtim? Of course, things can work out despite. And no one can plan their own future. But why not make it easier on yourself – look for someone who you really seem to be on the same wavelength.
DQB: A wife shouldn’t be dressing in public for the husband’s (or anyone’s) attention. That should only be done in private.
Lior: Why would you think that I disagree? I was stating that there are guys who have their shtick (be it from themselves, their surroundings, theirs parents) – be it a way of dressing for wife/soon-to-be wife (be it inappropriate or strange) or of rules (dress size etc.) These are all easy to wail against when the fact is any person who follows said ways is not the people who are wailing’s daughters beshert. So no worries. We are in galus – people are confused. I was commenting that lamenting how people choose shidduchim is often an excercise in futility.
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