April 22, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #591590APushetaYidParticipant
40 Days Shir HaShirim – Does this segullah need to be done a certain time or by lighting a candle or just saying it 40 days..
thanks,April 22, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1050753Mayan_DvashParticipant
I heard it has to be 40 consecutive days. I also heard that you should say it for someone else (and they say it for you) following the principle of you and someone else needing the same thing and you daven for them, you get answered as well.
That’s just what I heard.
;April 22, 2010 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1050754agentParticipant
I said Shir Hashirim for someone and she said it for me for 40 days straight. I got engaged the night of the 40th-(and it was not planned!)-it can be any time during the day or night-I don’t think it makes a differenceApril 23, 2010 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1050755FUN123Member
Is there a special yehi ratzon or something you say after you say shir hashirim, if your saying it for someone else? like where to you say the name of the person? after before?April 23, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1050756
Thank you for the opportunity to post an anti-segulah rant.
I don’t know whether segulahs work or not. I do know that as I understand them they are not part of how I understand Judaism. Judaism is the worship of G-d and the fulfilling of his command. We are commanded 613 things.
We believe that G-d always does what is best for a person. By doing what we are supposed to, we ensure that in the next world we will be rewarded. What happens in this world is not guaranteed.
Learning Shir Hashirim is a mitzva. So is learning perek shira and saying “amen”. And so is learning the 17th perek of Iyov.
The Torah gives us guidelines on how to decide which mitzvos should be performed at which times. We are supposed to follow these guidelines as the ratzon Hashem. The only deciding factor in any decision should be what is ratzon Hashem.
Some people imagine that by performing certain mitzvos in certain orders (sometimes not even mitzvos), they will “force G-d” to act in a certain way. I know of no basis to believe such a thing; but, even if it were true, is it a good idea? G-d does what is best for a person, by “forcing him”, you may get what is bad for you.
This is not the same as davening. We are commanded to ask G-d for our needs and G-d responds with what is good for us. Sometimes the asking changes what is good for us. But can anyone believe that if a person does what G-d wants, asks for his needs, but neglects to recite Shir Hashirim for 40 days, he will not get what he deserves?
Just what type of G-d do you believe in?April 23, 2010 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1050757arcParticipant
Your rant is over the top. You make a segula out to be an alternate God it isnt and no one implies it is.
Do you believe in R Meir bal hanes?April 23, 2010 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1050758
arc: I was more delicate than to call it avoda zara, but you may if you wish.
Do I believe that giving tzedaka is more effective when invoking the name of R’ Meir baal hanes? I suppose one can daven in his merit. I suppose one can use the memory of his nissim to bolster his bitachon. I don’t suppose one can superstitiously babble his name and expect miracles.April 25, 2010 2:29 am at 2:29 am #1050760
mod: why was my post taken down?
Segula’s are part of the Torah She’Baal Peh.April 25, 2010 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1050761ThinkForJustAMinuteMember
I would like to add one point. People have this idea that they will daven for someone else who needs the same thing and thereby get it themselves. I believe this is a misinterpretation of the chazal.
If despite one’s own needs, one is able to care even more about the problems of the other, and so davens for him, this shows a deep concern and high level of chesed and rachamim- the purpose of creation. It easily follows that such a person deserves an extra level of rachamim from Hashem.
If however, a person davens for someone else BECAUSE he thinks it will help himself, this only reflects on his concern for himself. He is merely using the other as a tool to fulfill his own needs. (Perhaps he is even happy to find someone with the same problem so that he can daven for him and be answered first.) The oft quoted statement of chazal does not really apply to this person.April 25, 2010 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1050762
I don’t think anything I said was against the torah shebaal peh in any way. I’m not sure you are qualified to decide on that either. Perhaps if you would have posted a specific quote, I could have responded. Was my response to the r’ meir baal hanes issue unreasonable or apikorsus?
You opened your self-described “anti-segulah rant” stating segulah’s “are not Judiasm.”
The Torah She’Baal Peh is part of Judaism.
I have edited your post a bit and put it back up.April 25, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1050763
ok. I can let it stand the way you wrote it. The sentence seems a little wordy now, but I don’t know what to do with it.April 25, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1050764oomisParticipant
This is how I view segulos, and I may be right or wrong, but it is my personal view:
Segulos such as learning or reading Perek Shira, Iyov, Shir Hashirim, or whatever, are not done to “force” Hashem’s Hands, as if we ever could. They are done to make us more acutely aware of our connection to Hashem, and hope that by doing these things, we accrue some “brownie points” that make us more zocheh to hear a “yes” than we were the previous day. Some segulos or so-called segulos are naarishkeiten, but others, such as the learning, or having forty women (40 being one of a few mystical numbers in Judaism) be mafrish challah and bake it the same day, as a segulah for a refuah for someone, are not naarishkeit, because they either cause us to do more learning, or bring people together to do a chessed and make forty brachos shel mitzvah in the ZECHUS of the choleh, and it is the CHESSED and achdus (not to mention the many brachos), not the baking, that is the real segulah, in my opinion. Hashem always looks favorably when He sees His people caring about each other.
Because someone does not feel the need to partake of such things, is neither right nor wrong. It simply is that person’s derech. As long as something does not in any way NEGATE halacha, I don’t think it causes any harm, and often causes good.
Btw, isn’t the giving of tzedaka a segulah itself to be a shmira against death? Just a thought…April 25, 2010 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1050765FUN123Member
Can someone please answer if there is a yehi ratzon you say when you say shir hashirim, or do u just have the persons name in mind????? (same with perek shira?)April 25, 2010 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1050766potsandpansMember
yes, there is a yehi ratzon after shiur hashirim in most sidurim!…I was told you do need to say it after because part of the segula is the prayer part. the yehi ratzon ends “veyemale mishalos lebenu…”( May Hashem fulfill wishes of our hearts…) this is good time to say “for zivug hagun for____ Ben/Bas ____. you shud ask a rov thou what to do on shabbos when one does not say the yehi ratzon as we dont’ ask personal bakashos on shabbos. some say you shud say yehi ratzon before shabbos and have in mind the shir hashirm u’ll say on shabbos….best to ask your rov.April 26, 2010 3:27 am at 3:27 am #1050767
Reminds me of a story. A certain yungerman’s wife had agreed to bake challah as part of a 40 woman group. Thursday night, this woman was extremely tired and was distressed at the thought of beginning to bake challah. The husband told her, “go to sleep, I’m baking challah.” Now that is my kind of segula.
oomis: I like your take on the issue. To view it as a way to do chessed sounds good to me.You also seem to be asking what danger I see in segulas.
The way I heard it from my rebbeim, the issue is that people tend to use it as a substitute for real growth. Every emphasis is also a de-emphasis on something else. Recall the recent perek shira frenzy. Perek shira is a nice thing to learn, but is it really as important as many other things which could have been focused on? Saying “amen” is extremely important, but are amen parties really the best way to use that time to serve Hashem.
My point is that by focusing on easy, less important issues, people get a sense of having achieved levels in ruchniyos which they have not, and do not work on the issues which truly need work.
Please address this: I applaud your view that baking challah is an exercise in chessed and achdus. However, I can think of far better ways to do chessed and practice achdus. Why not get 40 women together to actually help people in a physical way?April 26, 2010 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1050768the.nurseMember
I agree with popa_bar_abba. I think many people view segulos as their guaranteed way to X, and when that (often enough) doesn’t occur, they feel slighted. I like oomis’s way of explaining it… it is the higher spiritual level one may achieve when going about the segulah that may make us more zoche to whatever it is we are hoping.
Whoever is modding this thread -you mentioned that there is a Torah basis to segulos. Where is it from?
You understand what “sheba’al peh” means, right?
It is mentioned, though, in the Seforim HaKedoshim.April 26, 2010 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1050771the.nurseMember
yes….. i know what ‘sheba’al peh’ means. sorry for the confusion. but thanks for the clarification.May 2, 2010 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1050772
I would like to publicly thank G-d for the yeshua I had this week. I had been in a difficult situation and, since posting my rant on this thread, I had a significant turn for better. I do not wish to post details, but let it suffice that this yeshua has a face value of $60,000-100,000 and a non-monetary value of far more.May 3, 2010 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1050774seeallsidesParticipant
popa_bar_abba: A wise person told me that when you were helped with a yeshua, you have a special koach to daven for others in the same boat – perhaps it is just a koach that comes from understanding the pain of that particular situation, and being able to empathize. Whatever it is, may you continue to have yeshuos and hatzlocha, and may the special koach you got, be successful in helping others.May 4, 2010 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1050775bombmaniacParticipant
MOD: please bring sources, your argument is completely invalid and you have no right to edit posts like that if you do not bring any better sources than “seforim hakedoshim”
to the rest of you, i would bring this all down to a very basic concept. mesorah. if there is a mesorah for something, then we have a right to be someich on it. obviously, we must see where the mesorah comes from, but ultimately this all comes down to mesorah. minhagim are the same, they all come down to mesorah. all of them. do popa_bar_abba, please stop being so narrow minded, MOD, bring sources or stop censoring, and to the rest of you, do what you want, segulos wont kill you.May 4, 2010 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1050776shlomozalmanMember
I agree with bombmaniac. The term “seforim kedoshim” has no relevance unless they are identified.Their “mesorah” is limited to those who accept it, and does not exist for those who don’t. The packagaing of it all under “torah sheb’al peh” is open to debate.
EDITEDMay 4, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1050777
bombmaniac: the yeshua did happen. I cannot go into detail, but I was given $60,000 which I may have otherwise borrowed at 8.5%. This money enabled me to make certain decisions which can have a significant impact on my life. The money was unexpected and I had previously been told I would not receive it.
I am not narrow minded. I believe everything I wrote, as do my roshei yeshiva and friends. This is all common knowledge in the yeshivos.May 4, 2010 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1050778
i was planning on making 2 points, one was made by oomis1105 so I’ll jump to the second.
I believe that if a holy person says do 15 jumping jacks and xyz will happen, it will happen! but i don’t think if someone prints doing 15 jumping jacks will bring you xyz, that it will! it helped me because the holy person said it will. so it’s not the jumping jacks that works but the holy persons blessingMay 4, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1050779dvorakMember
I get really uncomfortable when people say segulos “aren’t real” or “aren’t Jewish”. They are very real, brought down by Chazal and other holy sources (such as Ari). That a lot of people use segulos the wrong way or miss the point entirely, or that many “segulos” are entirely made up is not a reflection on the power or meaning behind real segulos. At the end of the day, you need to be zoch to the yeshua, whatever it may be. There’s nothing magical about, say, the words of Parshas HaMon. The idea is that by saying it, you should come to understand that Hashem is the one who sustains us each day and gives us what we need, no more no less; by coming to that understanding, you may be zoche to more parnossah (or at least to finding a way to make do with what you’ve got). Same idea for say, Amuka or Kever Rochel. They are not magical places, but rather the sites of righteous people who had trouble marrying/having children. This should spur people to do tshuva, daven harder, and ask Hashem to remember them as He remembered our ancestors. Someone already mentioned the idea behind davening for someone else in need of the same thing, and that holds true as well. Segulos are not some sort of golden ticket to all the things we want; they are ways of helping us improve ourselves so that we might deserve those yeshuos more than we would otherwise.May 4, 2010 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1050780oomisParticipant
“Why not get 40 women together to actually help people in a physical way? “
You will be delighted to know that the women in my community who do this, ALSO spend their free time cooking for people who are ill or chalilah sitting shiva, visit them, drive their kids to and from school, shop for them, and take them to and from doc appointments. I think that is pretty physical. They get together and say Tehillim as a group, on a regular basis, for the cholim of the community. That is both physical and spiritual. B”H, they are ready to do any and all types of chessed as needed.May 4, 2010 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1050781
There is a segula that giving masser will make one wealthy, as a matter of fact it’s even stronger than a segula, it’s a promise from hashem, anyone know why it doesn’t seem to work?May 5, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1050785
“anyone know why it doesn’t seem to work?”
Chesedname – Aizehu asher? Hasameach bechelko.
Are you starving? Do you have a roof over your head?
Don’t assume that if you had it, you’re still going to have it. What you have now is a new gift from Hashem, not an old one.
So if you show your appreciation for the gift, and give more Tzedaka, Hashem will continue to provide.May 5, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1050786
everything you wrote is true, BUT that isn’t the promise hashem made!
the promise is anyone that gives masser will be so wealthy they won’t be able to say stop giving, enough times. the question is why that promise doesn’t seem to come true.
to make the question stronger, hashem says you can even test me on it, and this is the only time we’re allowed to test hashem.
so yes we have to be thankful for what we have, and be happy with it, but why doesn’t the PROMISE and GUARANTEE seem to work??May 6, 2010 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1050788
I don’t know if that promise applies to Maaser K’safim. It is written in the pasuk by giving Maaser of produce. Many peopel extend it to Maaser of money as well though.
Also, how do you know it doesn’t work? The promise doesn’t say that as soon as you give the Maaser, more money will magically appear in your bank account. It could be that it takes time. Have bitachon that Hashem will fulfill the promise and eventually he will.May 6, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1050789
i think every posik and rav says it does apply to masser k’safim. (otherwise you would be right)
why do i wonder if it works, or why it doesn’t? how many ppl do you know are so wealthy they say “enough already” how many frum ppl do you know that are really worth many millions? compared to the amount of yidden giving masser very few.
so it’s more than just wait it out and you’ll get the promise fulfilled.
and I’m stuck with the question, why a promise like that, doesn’t seem to come true?May 6, 2010 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1050790
how many ppl do you know are so wealthy they say “enough already” how many frum ppl do you know that are really worth many millions? compared to the amount of yidden giving masser very few
Hashem says he will give “bracha ad bli dai”. You seem to think this means that the person giving the maaser will say “enough already”. I don’t know what your source is for that, but there is a concept of “sameach b’chelko”. Some people can be given millions and it still won’t be enough for them, does that mean that Hashem didn’t fulfill his promise or that the person himself is too absorbed in gashmiyus to recognize the bracha? Being worth millions does not mean wealthy and wealthy does not mean worth millions. Give maaser and Hashem will provide you with more than enough – whether you notice it or not. In today’s economy many people are only now realizing how wealthy they were a few years ago. A few years ago as their businesses were going up they just wanted “more and more” and never said “enough”, today they wish they could have what they had back then without the extra “more and more”May 6, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1050791
the promise is not “to be happy with what you have” because if that was the case a pauper that gives masser, his reward is being happy and broke?? NO! the promise is wealth! and 99% of us are not wealthy.
the question is why not?May 6, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1050792
You say the promise is “wealth”. Pirkei Avos defines “ashir” as “sameach b’chelko”. I’m not sure exactly what your source is other than the pasuk in Malachi which says “bracha ad bli dai” which basically means “a blessing of enough”, why do you define that bracha as “wealth”? And even so, how do you define “wealth”? Should Hashem give you $1 million? $2 million? $100 million?May 6, 2010 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1050793
The problem is that we live in the age of the mega-millions where most people are not happy with what they have. They all say, “if only I won the lottery…”.
Let’s say you did win $100 million in the lottery. Would you be rich? Can you afford a new home? Yes. Can you afford to buy a baseball team? Probably not. Do you need to buy a baseball team? No. Do you need to buy a new house? That is questionable. If Hashem feels that you do need it, and you give maaser, than he will provide you with the means to buy it, but he won’t necessarily give you $100 million.May 6, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1050794
most ppl don’t have much money and live month to month, as per the halacha these ppl are not only wealthy, but are entitled to tzedaka (less than 6 month cash reserve, makes a person entitled to tzedaka)
ad bli dai, dai means enough, translation is they’ll have wealth until they say enough, that’s literal translation.
all the gemarahs, seforim, rabbi’s, tanach, say the reward is wealth, not that you’ll be able to make a living
So we established the reward and promise is wealth, and that doesn’t mean being poor and happy!
The question of what is wealth? 100 million, 500 million? great question, I’m not sure. i guess it would depend on what makes that person “happy” (that’s what pirkei avos means happy with what you have) but in either case it’s not living month to month, or even 10k in the bank. maybe you can argue if someone owes zero on his house, car, and has money put away for all his kids weddings, etc. that’s wealth, fine. how many ppl have that kind of money?
not many, so we’re still back to the question of why not?May 7, 2010 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1050795
Now we have to ask what is considered living month-to-month and how much does a person need to live 6 months. The answer is a lot less than people think. All the houses we have nowadays would be considered mansions in the days of the gemara – and that’s even without indoor plumbing, etc.May 7, 2010 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1050796
no, there is no set amount to be called wealthy.
but if someone has a modest home, drives a Honda accord, etc.. and doesn’t have more than six months worth of expenses put away (again, he can collect tzedaka with less than 6 months worth) i think everyone would agree he’s not “wealthy” comfortable maybe, wealthy not.
lets do even better, shouldn’t the guy who gives masser, have at least 6 or more months worth of expenses in the bank (assuming he doesn’t have investments)May 7, 2010 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1050797not2brightMember
sorry to interrupt your thought-provoking conversation, but even though the mod has made some good points, first of all, chesedname, you really have to make sure you are giving correct maaser, also, even though it might sound slightly foolish, think about it, that how do you know hw much you would have right now were you not to give maaser- maybe you are $10,000 richer because you gave maaser, wouldn’t you call that wealth? just think about it, and, as everyone keeps on telling you, you really do have to be happy with what you have, then you will see that you really are richer than anybody else. try that also. lastly, maybe richer is in what really counts- torah, middos, family, simchos, or is money the main thing that you consider riches?May 7, 2010 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1050798HaLeiViParticipant
Chesedname, I notice that your question is about “everybody”. Let’s keep this about yourself and it would be alot easier to answer it. Before speaking about others, speak to them first.
We find that Moshe Rabbeinu asked Hashem the famous question of Tzaddik V’ra Lo. It is not clear if he got an answer. Moshe Rabbeinu was shown the plight of Rebbi Akiva and said, “Zu Torah V’zu S’chara?” On the other hand when we look at Rebbi Akiva himself, we find that he answers his Talmidim that this is the greatest opportunity in his life. No questions.
Back to the issue at hand, in the Gemmara in Shabbos we find that Rebbi asked Rebbi Yishmoel B’reb Yosi in what Zechus did the rich of Eretz Yisroel become rich. He answered that they give Maaser. Then he asked about the rich of Bavel, to which he replied that they are Mechabed the Torah.
First of all, from the fact that he was not satisfied with the first answer as pertaining to the Bavelites, shows us that the Mod is correct in that it is referring to real Maaser.
Second of all, nothing is a sure way to anywhere. Richness has to do with Mazel among other things. If you notice, the question is, how where the rich Zocheh. Not everyone will become rich, but in order to become rich there has to be a Zechus. If it helps, you can also think of it as adding gas to the engine. If it’s broken, leaking over-loaded or choked, the effect will be stopped or dampened. But, my point was more than that.
The concept that we learn from this Memra of Chazal also applies to Tzeddaka in general, of course. Now, of course it does not mean that you will surely get rich. It does mean that Hashem gives to those who give. The Maharal likens this to a well that as you take water from it, more flows in. If you speak to people about this you will hear remarkable stories of how after giving Tzeddaka they got helped from unexpected sources. I had my own experience a few days ago, when although very pressed, I gave somebody more than I would usually think of giving, and that day, I avoided a car accident at the last second.May 7, 2010 5:27 am at 5:27 am #1050799
certain things are indisputable, for example hashem promises anyone who gives masser, so much wealth, ie money! until they say enough. that means more than, be happy with what you have, or you could have $10,000 less, or be happy your rent is paid on time, etc…
hashem says clearly you will be WEALTHY, that’s CASH, and it will be so much you will say enough!! ppl don’t say enough already because their rent is paid for the month.
if hashem did mean, give masser and you’ll have a nice job, and make $200,000.00 a year, the promise and guarantee should have been give masser and you’ll be comfortable, or you’ll always have food, or I’ll reward you that you’ll be happy with what you have, but again the promise! not bracha, is you will be an asher (a wealthy person) until you say enough!!!!!!May 7, 2010 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1050800
chesedname – Most wealthy people are not satisfied with what they have and have never said that they have enough.
So the promise that you reference is allegorical: If you give Tzedaka, you will get back more than you give. So the more you give, the more you get since Hashem sees that you are a good repository for His money to be dispensed to the poor. We are in essence Hashem bank tellers; He deposits with us and the poor withdraw.May 7, 2010 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1050801Be HappyParticipant
I have a house and am B”H happy with my “palace”. My neighbour on the other hand is building another floor and extending his house. Is he more wealthy? I don’t know, but I know there is something special about being satisfied with what one has.
We also have to remember to give Tzedoko happily.May 7, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1050802
based on what you’re saying the reward for masser is being happy with what you have.
besides the fact that goes against every sefer and gemarah, which says the reward is wealth, which means a lot of money.
how would you explain the ppl that give masser and are not happy with what they have? you can’t say they should learn to be happy, because that’s true for all of us, according to you the reward should mean that hashem makes everyone happy with what they have?May 7, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1050803
Vi shteit that wealth means “a lot of money”? (Without even discussing the fact that “a lot” is a relative term.) Wealth could mean “more money” than otherwise.May 7, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1050804
now tanach give masser and hashem will give you back ad bli dai, dai means enough, translation is they’ll have wealth until they say enough, that’s literal translation.
now gemarah, it says in many places the rewrd for masser is wealth, they get it from the torah and tanach quoted above.
i don’t think hashem would promise wealth, and go as far as saying you can even test me, and then say well really the reward is i’ll make yoiu happy with what you have, of the fact you have an apartment and some ppl are homeless means you’re wealthMay 7, 2010 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1050805
chesed: According to your own words and interpertations, $40,000/year could be considered wealthy.
As far as “until they say enough”, there are many folks making $200,000, $800,000, or more – with 2 children, that aren’t saying “enough”.May 7, 2010 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1050806WolfishMusingsParticipant
$40,000/year could be considered wealthy.
Just as a side point, one should not confuse income and wealth. While one may lead to the other, they are not the same. A person can have a very high income and yet be quite poor.
The WolfMay 7, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1050807
lets say someone makes $40,000.00 and says enough, then yes he was rewarded with wealth. but if that is how it works why isn’t the person wanting a million dollars getting it??May 7, 2010 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1050808
lets say someone makes a million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants ten million dollars, why isn’t the person making ten million dollars??
lets say someone makes ten million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants a hundred million dollars, why isn’t the person making a hundred million dollars??May 7, 2010 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1050809
Chesedname – “i don’t think hashem would promise wealth, and go as far as saying you can even test me, and then say well really the reward is i’ll make yoiu happy with what you have”
The Rambam says that Strength and Wealth are not meant to be taken literally. Azehu Gibor? Hakovesh es Yitzro; not necessarily Charles Atlas. Just as Azehu Chochem? is someone who learns from everyone; and not necessarily someone with a high IQ.
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