December 18, 2012 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #607481
I was recently looking at a frum publication and noticed 2 troubling advertisements. One was an advertisement for a fancy brand name hotel for people to make simchas in. The other ad was an ostentatious advertisement for a frum Jewelry business with a picture of a $40,000+ watch on it. Are we Jews so rich that we now wear $40,000 watches? Who are they advertising to and if people do wear $40,000 watches its very sick indeed. A Jew shouldn’t be so megusham. Furthermore we keep hearing about how nobody has parnassah yet these advertisers obviously are getting business of people making simchas in hotels and people buying insanely expensive Jewelry that costs more than most cars. If we have so many rich Jews why do Yeshivos and organizations have such a hard time staying afloat? What is going on? I am confused when I see such ads.December 18, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1009158
+1 WIYDecember 18, 2012 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1009159zahavasdadParticipant
You never drove through Borough Park or Flatbush at night and see inside peoples house and see fancy Chandeleiers?December 18, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1009160WolfishMusingsParticipant
Who are they advertising to
Obviously, people who can afford watches in that price range.
if people do wear $40,000 watches its very sick indeed
That’s merely your opinion. I personally hate ostentatious displays, but that doesn’t mean that one who doesn’t hate them is “very sick indeed.”
yet these advertisers obviously are getting business of people making simchas in hotels and people buying insanely expensive Jewelry that costs more than most cars
What is your problem? Is it that the advertisers are earning a living? Or that people go on these vacations and buy these cars?
Furthermore, once a person meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes.
In addition, keep this in mind: if you don’t allow someone to spend his money on luxury items, all you’re doing is putting the luxury item maker out of business. You are, in effect, *removing* parnassah from the community, not adding to it.
The WolfDecember 18, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1009161gavra_at_workParticipant
If we have so many rich Jews why do Yeshivos and organizations have such a hard time staying afloat?
When the yeshivos open the books, and are not so “exclusive”, then people will give more. Now they believe that the money is better spent on themselves than on others who don’t need it. Especially if the rich man’s child would never be accepted.December 18, 2012 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1009162yaakov doeParticipant
Obviously some members of our community have more money than they know what to do with and their friends and neighbors spend beyond their means to imitate them. There’s no reason for a $40,000 watch. Better off buying 2 $1000 watches and hgiving the $38,000 to tzdaka. Some of the wealthiest people I know of live normal lives without flaunting their wealth and give generously to numerous tzdakas.December 18, 2012 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1009163ED IT ORParticipant
Recession or no recession: THE RICH GET RICHER THE POOR GET POORERDecember 18, 2012 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1009164
why does this bother you so much? wow, i can’t believe the nastiness towards the wealthy. jealous much? Everyone has their tayvos; if someone can afford it, wearing an expensive watch is relatively harmless. if someone is super wealthy and can afford an expensive watch, who are you to tell him not to? the wealthy people that i know literally support the city. if they choose to wear fancy clothes and make lavish simchas etc, that’s part of our nisayon as non wealthy people, not theirs. i can’t understand this attitude that it’s the wealthy people’s fault that someone else feels the need to break the bank by imitating them. everyone live according to their means, and shalom al yisroel.December 18, 2012 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1009165oomisParticipant
I am not wealthy, but I feel strongly that as long as someone IS regularly giving tzedaka, it is no one’s business how they spend their money otherwise, assuming it is not contrary to Halacha.December 18, 2012 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1009166
Wear a fake Rolex that cost $100 and that looks real and like it cost $40,000. Then you’ll make the rich guy with the real watch angry.December 19, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1009167zahavasdadParticipant
There is no Halacha that if I can afford it, I dont need to drive a Kollel Mobile instead of a LexusDecember 19, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1009168
Ten yours ago the price of a coffin (in a Jewish funeral home) was in a range between $ 900.00 and $ 36,000.00
Most likely, some people willing to pay $ 36,000.00 for a coffin and some – $ 40,000.00 for a watch.
I don’t think it is anybody’s business, how people spend their own money.
As WolfishMusings said: “once a person meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes”December 19, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1009169
“Wear a fake Rolex that cost $100 and that looks real and like it cost $40,000. Then you’ll make the rich guy with the real watch angry”
And why, exactly, we need to make a rich guy angry?December 19, 2012 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1009170
I am not understanding what is big commotion over expensive Zachen in this news-papers. If There are geveirim who giving to lots and lots of tzedaka and needs a gift for self,wife, or for resale needs.
Sincerely, A Bp Yid,December 19, 2012 2:09 am at 2:09 am #1009171
A fake Rolex is not so good, since it is only not real diamonds so for man in jewelry business such as me, it is a big turn off to my customers.
I apologize if my posts are not so good sound, as I speak good Yiddish, but English isn’t so good for my speaking.
Shkoyach, a BP YidDecember 19, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1009172
CV: We don’t need to. But he’ll naturally be angered that his gaaividik watch that he spent a fortune on was one-upped by a cheap imitation that few can tell any difference between. Don’t wear the imitation to anger him; but be advised that’ll be his likely reaction.December 19, 2012 2:12 am at 2:12 am #1009173
I agree with CV and wolfishmusings, if the tzedaka is given, then monies can be used with no badness.
(B”h, Google translated has a Yiddish to English translate!)
Signed, a BP yidDecember 19, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1009174frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Whether buying $40,000 watches is appropriate is a good question. For someone considering buying one. Are you considering buying one? No? Then none of your business. Unless you are acting out of love for someone that you think is making a misguided error.
So much compassion out there I see.December 19, 2012 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1009175
“CV: We don’t need to. But he’ll naturally be angered that his gaaividik watch that he spent a fortune on was one-upped by a cheap imitation that few can tell any difference between. Don’t wear the imitation to anger him; but be advised that’ll be his likely reaction”
Do you really think, that rich people have no clue cheap imitations exist? And if they know and don’t buy these imitations, most likely they have a reason for it and they will not have the reaction you predict.December 19, 2012 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1009176
CV: What IS the reason? Gaaiva.December 19, 2012 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1009177
Are you fabulously wealthy? If not, al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkokmo.
As others have pointed out, there is nothing inherently assur about buying expensive luxuries. Is it praiseworthy for someone, even if wealthy, to live a relatively simple life? Will it reduce jealousy, and possibly leave more money available for more important things? I would agree that the answer to these questions is “yes”.
I don’t think, though, that someone should be degraded or looked down upon for not acting with what is essentially a midas chassidus.December 19, 2012 5:42 am at 5:42 am #1009178frumnotyeshivishParticipant
cnatgetit – it’s only gaaiva if there’s an assumption that $40,000 is better than a cheaper one, and having money is better than having no money.
Obviously, we all know, that Hashem gives everyone the perfect amount of money.
Therefore, there is no gaava to the informed individual.December 19, 2012 7:42 am at 7:42 am #1009179old manParticipant
One should always remember the rule:
If it’s not your money, it should not be in your thoughts.December 19, 2012 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1009180uneeqMember
DY: Well said. I object the OP for a additional reason though. Many people have the money and buy the watches as an investment. Usually these type of watches especially when they have gold or diamonds, go up in value over the years. I was told that certain watches even after being used will still sell for the same value in couple of years. Many people like to diversify their assets, and this is just one of the ways to do it.
Unless there is an issur of wearing a nice watch that I don’t know of, I think they are doing no wrong.December 19, 2012 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1009181mewhoParticipant
i find some of the jewlry store ads obnoxious—for shalom bayis make sure to bring home a new piece of jewelry to your wife for yom tov…..what about those who cannot afford that, is the implication that without a new piece of jewelry there is no shalom bayis?December 19, 2012 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1009182
I just think it is insensitive to most people especially post Sandy when there are 100’s of families who lost their homes or sustained huge damage to market $40,000 watches so rich guys can show off. I’m not rich I’m not poor Id say I’m upper middle class. I can’t afford a 40,000 watch and I can’t imagine any self respecting person would wear one. Its gayvah and tayvah and probably trying to poke out yenems eyes. You know if you are wearing some expensive rolex or whatever that you are making a statement. You do it anyways because you like the image and all that. Its certainly not within the guidelines of hatzneia leches im elokecha. It also brings ayin hora. Its just recently that I noticed such ads. I. the past the ads have been for more modest jewelry like chasson watches…this really raises the bar and is inappropriate. Feel free to disagree but I feel like advertising a $40,000 + watch is no different than advertising Bentleys and Rolls royces and feraris to the frum community. Is this what we are all about?December 19, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1009183PosterMember
I probably fall into the lower middle class catigory. I have no problem with the ads. In fact I think the manufacturers pay towrds the ads, not the jewelry stores themselves.
WIY, please understand that e/o is trying to make a living,
1) manufacturer for creating the wathc
2) the store for selling the watch
3) the magazine for advertising the watch
And you care to stop it?
You want to wear a 40,000 watch and drive a 2,000,000 car – go right ahead! I’ll continue wearing my ESQ.December 19, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1009184BaalHaboozeParticipant
I happen to agree to WIY. Ferociously!
I don’t know about anyone here reading these posts, but to me IMHO these ads reek of insensitivity, and the type of gashmiyus Rabbonim scream against since we were kids.
What do you ‘frum’ posters mean ‘If he can afford it, and meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes’???! What? On $40,000 watches?! ?”?! I don’t care how rich they are, if they are jewish & frum, they are sick (i.e. spiritually.), deeply sucked into Olam Hazeh and gashmiyus. I’m mesupik if there is an issur, I honestly don’t know, but I wonder if it goes into the violation of Kedoshim Tihiyu. But that’s all Bein Odom La’Mokom.
Then there is the insensitivity issue. To walk proudly with a luxurios $40,000 fashion accessory among your struggling jewish brothers and sisters who can’t afford basic tuition, food for their families, or to make a simple wedding. I don’t care if he gave $1 million dollars to tzaddaka! Where’s the sensitivity to the next person? Where is the tzniyus? and where’s the Middas Anavah? Out the window…
Parnassa? Sell it to the rich goyim, gezunterheit. Put such ads in their magazines for the wealthy. Beleive me, there’s plenty of them. But in our jewish frum papers, advertisements definitely should be strictly on something more low key, affordable and nice.
(*exhales*)December 19, 2012 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1009185
WIY, how do you know that the motivations behind someone wearing that watch? i highly doubt they would spend that kind of money to “poke out yenem’s eyes”. and how do you know if that person didnt already send at least 40,000$ to help those affected by sandy? i am barely even middle class, but i have friends who are fabulously wealthy and literally support the city. and i think that it would be disingenuous to say that there isnt just a teeny tiny bit of jealousy if you have a problem with it. and again, when you think of all the aveiros and tayvos that ppl have, is this one really so bad? and remember that if this was put in your face, then it’s a test for you, how are YOU going to respond. we all have our own nisyonos. i dont know about you, but mine are much more serious than wearing a 40,000$ watch.December 19, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1009186
the 40,000$ watch is just the adult’s version of a fancy toy. i’ve seen this attitude with raising children and it boggles my mind that parents seem to almost encourage their child who is jealous and wants what the rich kid has. it’s our duty as parents to teach our kids that being rich is also a nisayon, but our nisayon is to be sameach b’chelko and to have the basic emunah that Hashem gives us exactly what we need. but first, we need to teach the adults.December 19, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1009187BaalHaboozeParticipant
“….when you think of all the aveiros and tayvos that ppl have, is this one really so bad? and remember that if this was put in your face, then it’s a test for you, how are YOU going to respond”
Oh come on! That is the oldest excuse in the book for doing all the ‘little’ avairos, or to give in to ‘little’ tayvos!
“It’s better than what other people do out there” (*rolls eyes*).
Excuse me, but that is just pathetic! And although it is a test for me when you stick that $40,000 watch in my face, but the issue here is the WEARER of the watch! What’s HIS excuse for being insensitive to others walking around struggling to make end’s meet – which unfortunately is NOT an exaggeration). Where’s the tzniyus??
But getting back to the ads, it doesn’t belong in our frum Magazines, newspapers.December 19, 2012 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1009188
@ BaalHabooze, really?? first of all, i wouldnt even recognize a fancy watch if i saw one, and dont have a concept of how much they could cost.
EVERYONE has their tayvos, no one is exempt. and when each of us look at our laundry list of things that we need to fix, why do you feel the need to look at your neighbor and worry about the simple tayva of a wealthy person. maybe that is his test, and i’m not even convinced that he failed if he chooses to buy it. seriously, why do we have to point fingers at other people? are we done fixing ourselves, that we have to go tell someone else what he has to fix? when i think of everything that is wrong with the world, sure, there are ppl who are too materialistic, but that is far from the worst tayva. sure there are ppl who break the bank to feel the need to live up to the Kohns and that is a problem, but it’s not the rich man’s problem.
in fact, when you think of all the Torah sources related to this, you have the halacha of giving tzedaka to the rich man to let him live according to his previous lifestyle, you have R’ Yehuda Hanassi who was known to be fabulously wealthy, and you have the idea of hiddur mitzva. for example, i know someone who got an expensive watch from his wife when he finished the daf yomi because he gets up in the wee hours of the morning and the watch was symbolic.
i just see so much pain and suffering in the world because of so many other things. someone is who bothered by how someone else spends their money, is just making their own life miserable. stop looking at yenem, and start doing your own cheshbon hanefesh.December 19, 2012 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1009189PBTMember
Since $40,000 is about 2/3 of my NET (AFTER taxes) salary for a single year, I don’t put much stock in $40,000 watches, and I can’t begin to think of the things that someone who could afford to buy such a watch would be thinking. However, bashing the rich (someone who could afford a $40,000 watch, etc.,), or companies whose products are marketed to the rich, is not a Jewish mida. It’s a mida of classical Christianity and of some in American political circles. I’ve said before, and say again, check the Igeres HaRamban, and what he has to say as to how we “commonfolk” have to think of the rich. We have no right to be jealous, or to begrudge them their wealth. Are we also jealous of their nisyanos in everyday life? I’ve seen some very wealthy Jews, and the heartaches and burdens they often have to carry with them. And I often think of them a bit, and conclude, “Thank G-d for MY problems.”December 19, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1009190MCPMember
The advertisers (and magazines) have a right to make a parnassah just like you do.
How rich people choose to spend their money is up to them. For all you know the guy with the $40,000 watch needs it to impress hotshot clients and along with the $40,000 he spent on the watch he also donated $400,000 to cover the tuition that you don’t pay because you are too busy ranting in the coffee room about how rich people spend their money and therefore have no time to work.December 19, 2012 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1009191MCPMember
#jealousyDecember 19, 2012 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1009192gavra_at_workParticipant
What’s HIS excuse for being insensitive to others walking around struggling to make end’s meet – which unfortunately is NOT an exaggeration).
Explain to me please what is “insensitive”. Hashem gives everyone, so we believe Hashem gave the rich man more 7 the poor man less. There should be no “sensitivity” involved on either side. I know that my house is smaller than my neighbors’. So what? This is what Hashem gave me, and I am thankful for it.
The Tznius point is valid, but lost in our world of denier & necklines.December 19, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1009193midwesternerParticipant
I just want to know what was the Yiddish word that when put in the google translator, yielded “badness.”December 19, 2012 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1009194
The goal of an advertisement is to get your attention. I think it is safe to say both the hotel and jewelery store got your attention. From the responses here, I would say that the ads created more positive than negative attention. Only the troll and his/her alter egos have an issue with the ad, everyone else is either enthusiastic or ambivalent about the ad.December 19, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1009195
i find some of the jewlry store ads obnoxious—for shalom bayis make sure to bring home a new piece of jewelry to your wife for yom tov…..what about those who cannot afford that, is the implication that without a new piece of jewelry there is no shalom bayis?
See the gemara in Shabbos (62b) that there is indeed a difference between one who can and cannot afford it.December 19, 2012 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1009196uneeqMember
There seems to be two possible issues that posters are suggesting:
A) Frum businesses shouldn’t be advertising things that don’t fit so well with Jewish values.
B) That people shouldn’t be buying wildly expensive things even if they have the money for it, and even if they give a lot of tzedaka
To which I answer-
A) A big reason for advertising, especially in jewelry and fashion, is to create an “image” of a brand or company, and not necessarily to sell the pictured item. Showing images of high priced items gives the consumer the idea that the store is high class, which leads regular consumers into their store when looking for a nice watch of any price.
B) There’s no issur of buying expensive watches, clothing, etc. Additionally, expensive watches have an extremely high resell value (unlike the Ferrari’s that posters keep mentioning), and can also be bought for investment too. I know one person who had $1.5 million worth of watches, each one 30-40k and up, most of which were not even worn.
C) Mind your own business.December 19, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1009197
I would sum up my position on this with the observation that someone who lived his life according to the Orchos Tzaddikim would not wear a $40,000 watch, and someone who lived according to the Orchos Tzaddikim wouldn’t rant against those who wear $40,000 watches.December 19, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1009198
are we done fixing ourselves, that we have to go tell someone else what he has to fix?
It is our duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct others.
in fact, when you think of all the Torah sources related to this, you have the halacha of giving tzedaka to the rich man to let him live according to his previous lifestyle, you have R’ Yehuda Hanassi who was known to be fabulously wealthy, and you have the idea of hiddur mitzva.
You gotta be kidding. 1) We would not give $40,000 tzedaka so a formerly rich man can buy the Rolex he is used to wearing. 2) Rav Yehuda Hanassi was wealthy but very far removed from ostentatious. 3) A Rolex is a “hiddur mitzvah”??? Surely you jest.December 19, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1009199
I started this thread. Dont come here accusing innocent people of being Joseph. I am not Joseph.December 19, 2012 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1009200
Who said anything about Joseph?December 19, 2012 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1009201
“It is our duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct others.”
If there was ever a mitzva that was misused, abused, misapplied and used as an excuse to knock another person, this is it.December 19, 2012 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1009202
@ DaasYochid, well said.December 19, 2012 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1009203lesschumrasParticipant
Wit, I see your point but I have a problem points such as yours. You are making the assumption that your standard is the one to measure others against. You said you were upper middle class. To a kollel family, your lifestyle would appear just as obscene to them as the rich man’s seems to you.everything is relativeDecember 20, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1009204HaLeiViParticipant
BaalHabooze, the ads usually only go one step further. It is a cycle. The lifestyle you are speaking of doesn’t necessarily start with the ads, although it may be assisted by them.December 20, 2012 1:04 am at 1:04 am #1009205
@ cantgetit, if i wasnt mildly amused, i would be offended, at how you went to such lengths to apply my words and twist them to suit you.
i would love to be a fly on the wall when someone takes upon themselves the “duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct” you.December 20, 2012 3:42 am at 3:42 am #1009206
1) We would not give $40,000 tzedaka so a formerly rich man can buy the Rolex he is used to wearing.
Practically speaking, no it won’t happen. But al pi halacha, we really should.
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