A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

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  • #2258964
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    ARSo asked you a simple question, “Since the Rebbe stated that the Friediker Rebbe was Moshiach was he wrong?” Stop playing games. It’s a simple question and the answer is that he was wrong or that when the Rebbe said that his father in law was Moshiach he wasn’t using the term Moshiach as we understand it in which case he is also not Moshiach as Judaism undestands it.

    To CS

    You accuse me of speaking loshon hora fpr calling your Rebbe a god clothed in human form When I answeted that I just called him what he called himself you responded that he meant it in a good wsy but meant it as slander. Sorry CS you ‘re not a mimd reader so don’t put thoughts into my words. No rational human bbeing ever compared himself to god in any way except tje Rebbe. Therefore he declared homself a god.

    To CS

    You claim that the Rebbe is the head of the Jews. This os necause he said he is. Again Hashem despises Gaavah.

    Edited

    #2258966
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “I guess you missed the heavenly funeral bit. For starters“

    Cs I hope you’re not quoting a “new testament” when he redeemed klal yisrael from mitzrayim he “disappeared” he didn’t die, he wasn’t around for a few months between when he went to pharaoh the first time and when he went in front of him by maakos dam

    #2258975
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    To fend off the challenge from Ramban CS asserts that he wasn’t truthful during those debates. Talk abput the pot calling a kettle black. A Lubavicher accusing the Ramban a liar. In fact he only agreed to participate when he was told that he could speak his views freely. That’s why he had to leave Spain shortly after. His comments angered certain people. Try again CS keep producing those bogus sources and ridiculous claims.  edited

    #2258990
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    1] You did not answer my questions 123 and ABC.

    2] Hasidei Habad did NOT change the words of their Leader .
    They are Hasidim and every word emanating from him is Kodesh Kadoshim .
    Even more than Moshe Rabenu’s words in the eyes of Jews since matan torah .
    [It figures, because he is – in their eyes greater than Moshe rabenu]
    Absolute folly and a total non starter .

    3] They never claimed missiles will not land . They claimed that nothing will happen to yoshvei EY.

    Wiggling your way out of it ,does not equal honesty.

    There is more to write iyh

    #2259002
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    Ramban himself took notes of his argument and published it FOR THE YIDDEN .
    He himself.
    That was the true reason why the notsrims candidate was PROVEN WRONG .
    .
    This WAS THE CLEAR OFFICIAL HABAD [!] POSITION pre 94.
    You are too young to remember this .
    But I do .
    It was one of the 13 ikarei emuna .
    He COULD NOT DIE .
    There is a nevua that he is mashiach .
    Mashiach HAS to be alive [!!!!] , [like the Ramban ]
    So He CANNOT DIE.
    You would have to blind and deaf at the time not to notice .
    This was the position of ALL habad rabanim and mashpi’im .
    .
    It is almost laughable that we are debating this issue where habad claims he can die – no problem .
    Its so detached from reality that it seems like a dream .
    Mashiach’s times [hayinu ke cholmim] ….
    to end off with a bit of irony …..

    #2259004
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @qwerty
    Ramban disseminated his claims in writing TO THE YIDDEN after the debate . Where he says that the yidden should know that the PROOF that their false candidate is a non starter , is because he died without completing the job .
    .
    NO ONE EVER CHALLENGED THIS RAMBAN DURING ANY PERIOD OF JEWISH HISTORY .
    .
    that is until something very urgent happened sometime during summer ’94….
    .

    #2259018
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    Could someone comment on CS’s Hebrew source?

    #2259100
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “Wow alot here”

    Ditto!

    Your quote from Rashi in Daniel says that Mashiach will be “covered” from us for 45 years. If you are relying on this, why do you keep hoping/saying “Mashiach Now!” And if you are not relying on the 45 year time period, then don’t quote us the Rashi. You can’t have it both ways!

    And the Toras Moshe you quoted says six months. So here the problem is the opposite. Either you believe it’s only six months, so obviously your rebbe isn’t the Mashiach he is referring to, or you don’t believe in the six month time period. So don’t quote that Toras Moshe. Again, you can’t have it both ways!

    Anyway, as someone pointed out, “covered” or “disappearing” is not the same as dying.

    “Firstly this was a major prediction that no one else made and came with a lot of achrayus.”

    Right, and I still remember it being that no one will be killed, not that there will not be missiles. A major prediction with lots of achrayus… and in the end, incorrect.

    “Secondly, in the sicha, The Rebbe referenced the Alter Rebbe as saying that Chassidim should only ask for spiritual guidance, because guidance for physical matters belongs to neviim as Shaul asked the Navi Shmuel about his lost donkeys… yet we see that all Rebbeim, including the Alter Rebbe, did dispense advice about physical matters, which indicates they were neviim.”

    Is that really your proof?! Wow! How weak. Because guidance in physical matters should belong only to nevi’im – is there a source for the Baal Hatanya saying that, or are we just to take the Lubavicher rebbe’s word for it? – therefore someone who gives physical guidance must be a novi!

    Guess what? I have just realised that I, and most of my friends, and my bank manager, and the person next to me in shul, are all nevi’im, as we have all given physical advice.

    Furthermore, according to what you wrote, not only Lubavicher rebbes are nevi’im, as other rebbes – even those few past or present who Lubavich believes in – have given physical advice. So, according to the weird logic above, they are also nevi’im. What is special, then, about Lubavich?

    “at least in one instance, someone asked his Rebbe for not a bracha, but a havtacha, to which his Rebbe said that if he wants a havtacha, there’s only one place in the world- Lubavitch…”

    A story about a rebbe without a name is almost as strong a proof as the “proofs” the Lubavicher rebbe said about himself!

    “There are countless stories where The Rebbe told people not to have life saving surgeries, and similar situations, which turned out fine.”

    I am sitting here shaking my head at how naïve you are. Let me enlighten you. There are countless stories about other tzaddikim – some of them, perish the thought, even Litvish – who have advised against apparent life-saving surgeries and were proven right! Yes, it’s true and documented. You can find them online if you search.

    #2259140
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    There’s an expression that was popular in my youth, “close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.” Now, thanks to CS, we can add, and prophecies from the Rebbe.”

    #2259171
    CS
    Participant

    CA
    you’re right, I should’ve clarified. By yetzias mitzrayim, there was only disappearance. My point was that you can’t always take what looks and seems like fact for granted, because before the eigel, Moshe looked like he was being buried by the Malachim in shomayim.

    Also there’s the Rabbeinu Bachya on parshas Vayechi, where he says that a true tzadik like Yakov and Rabbeinu Hakadosh, has two physical bodies, a guf gass, and guf dak. The guf gass is buried but the guf dak lives on, and that’s how Rabbeinu hakadosh kept coming home and making kiddush after his passing (must have been physical body or wouldn’t have been motzi the others). The Rebbe referenced this in relation to the Frierdiker Rebbe

    #2259173
    CS
    Participant

    Arso and YB, I cannot reply to that which happened before my time and I’m unaware of. If you find a sicha printed, (they’re all the same) where the Rebbe said no one at all will be hurt or killed, there’s something to talk about. And yes, it makes sense that the Chassidim were excited about the Rebbes prediction and applied it in ways that the Rebbe himself had not said (although within the same spirit.)

    Regarding the Ramban, like I said it’s a plugsa bemetzius. What I remember is either true or isn’t. If someone knows and can reference, that would be helpful.

    Regardless, I posted other sources to back up what I said about the stages.

    Arso, the point is they all say the concealment period is different times. It’s not Halacha, and obviously the geula will not be delayed when we merit it because we have to fit exactly 45 years + the bit he mentions.

    #2259174
    CS
    Participant

    To qwerty
    I’m sorry you didn’t understand my previous post. The point is they were one Neshama split between two bodies, so both are correct. Although very later on, the Rebbe hinted it would be Moshiach as nassi of the seventh generation- so that would mean his body.

    Qwerty,
    I’m sorry you’re not understanding the subject. I did explain it as simple and short as I could. Maybe the online forum style isn’t the way you learn? Regardless it doesn’t give you the right to slander a tzadik based on your lack of knowledge on the subject. If someone would open a medical book, not take the time to read it properly, and then say the head surgeon doesn’t know what he’s doing, what does that say?

    Qwerty,
    The Rebbe didn’t make up the term Nassi, it’s found in rashi, and other sefarim. The other Rebbeim used it too , as far as I know. In any case it’sa description of a position. No more arrogant than you going by the title of your profession.

    #2259175
    CS
    Participant

    Yb, I didn’t answer abc 123, because I challenged what you wrote in a, and explained it. So the following ones are irrelevant/ change once that’s there. Again if you find a source in Toras Menachem or sefer HaSichos, please post. Otherwise I can’t comment as there’s no evidence

    #2259176
    CS
    Participant

    YB:
    I understand why the Chassidim of then were buttressing their position. It did seem impossible for things to end up this way, much as it must have seemed impossible for Moshe to delay coming (which was very real in their reality although it wasn’t true.) I’m not here to answer for every Lubavitcher as an individual. We are not collectively holding by beinoni/ tzadik, at least the communities I’ve seen. I’m here to answer questions and open to seeing sources inside.

    #2259187
    CS
    Participant

    Arso, I guess I wasn’t clear. The sources are all in the sicha shoftim 5751. What I meant was not physical advice, but rather someone using Nevuah to tell someone else something regarding physical matters which they wouldn’t have known otherwise. Like Shaul and the donkeys, and obviously more weighty things as well.

    The other thing, I think many other Tzaddikim and Rebbeim pre the world war did this, it was quite common then. I’ve heard the same about the Baba Sali. This is not something unique to lubavitch, although after the war it was alot more rare it seems, for someone to have directed others in this area with certainty, not just as a brocha or wish which is also beautiful but not on the table

    #2259191
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    You should read what I wrote more clearly
    I didn’t challenge the term Nasi, what I challenged is your assertion that the Rebbe was the head of all Jews. He may have been your leader but he certainly wasn’t the leader of Klal Yisrael. As for me being arrogant for calling myself doctor. That’s the title I earned and was given to me by the state of NY. Should I tell my patients to call me qwerty? You keep returning to my supposed slander. We both agree that the Rebbe called himself god clothed on human form. You choose to believe that thos is correct. I choose to believe, as do all rational Jews, that this is Kefirah.

    #2259196
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “The Rebbe said that we will see miracles and that Yidden are safe in EY”

    Were those two people who were killed by missiles safe? And the others who died from heart attacks brought on by fear, or who suffocated in gas masks that weren’t properly fitted, or who died because they injected atropine, where they safe?

    In simple English: if that is indeed what the LR predicted, he was wrong. And if YOU want to consider it nevua (I don’t, and neither do any of the other non-Lubavichers on this thread), then he is a novi sheker.

    And again, I REMEMBER that he said no one will be killed, but that doesn’t really make a difference as I have just demonstrated that even according to you what he predicted did not come to pass.

    “Chassidim decided that it must mean that there will be no missiles etc.”

    Just as they decided that you can get answers from the LR via random opening of the Igros. Where did that come from? And don’t tell me the LR said it because I know that he didn’t. Over the years I have asked a number of Lubavichers for a source for that, and no one has ever given me a straight answer.

    CS in reply to the following: “moshe rabbeinu didn’t die when he “disappeared”
    I guess you missed the heavenly funeral bit. For starters”
    Whoa! If I understood you correctly, you’re referring to the image the Sotton made of Moshe Rabbeinu being transported on a bier. So are you now saying that the LR didn’t die? Because if you are that puts a whole different spin on what you have been saying all along. And if you’re not, then there’s no comparison, because Moshe Rabbeinu did NOT die at that time.

    #2259197
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “you’re right, I should’ve clarified. By yetzias mitzrayim, there was only disappearance. My point was that you can’t always take what looks and seems like fact for granted, because before the eigel, Moshe looked like he was being buried by the Malachim in shomayim.”

    In this paragraph you’re saying the rebbe is still alive bgashmius

    Not even the notzrim believe that their messiah is alive physically

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry

    #2259201
    ARSo
    Participant

    Sorry, CS, but the word “obfuscating” (yes, it has become one of my favorites) comes to mind when I read your replies (“2 answers…”) to my problem with your view on both the LR and his father-in-law being one and the same, and both, therefore, Mashiach.

    Simply, it doesn’t make sense. If the LR was himself Mashiach why refer to his father-in-law as Mashiach? And why “get answers” from his father-in-law’s grave? Wasn’t he good enough to be Mashiach on his own, or has Mashiach in your mind become a Siamese-twin concept? (Please don’t tell me that since the Rambam doesn’t say anything against it, that might indeed be the case ☹.)

    “In lubavitch, a Rebbe is not an inspirational yid.”

    Your naivete is showing once again! I have never heard a chossid of any Rebbe referring to his Rebbe as simply being an ‘inspirational Yid’. When will you learn that all the garbage taught to you in your Chassidic hashkafa classes – call them what you will – was designed to have you believe (wrongly, of course) that Lubavich is on an unbelievably higher level than Menagdim, Pailisher chassidim etc? It is all a crutch for you to lean on when you come face to face with people whose hashkofos are really Torah-true, and to prevent you realising that yours are false, misleading and dangerous.

    Quite a number of years ago a rov of a Chassidishe kehilla told me that his Rebbe (I know which Rebbe, and the only reason I am not saying it is because it may very well lead Lubavichers who hear the story to badmouth him. Rest assured he was an acknowledged worldwide as a huge talmid chochom and baal mesiras nefesh, and he had chassidim on a number of continents.) once voiced his disapproval when he heard his chassidim singing a Lubavicher niggun at a tish. He said, “They should not be singing a niggun of a group who consider only themselves as having the true path.”

    “but there are references to it being the dor hashvii”

    What are the sources of those references?

    And while I’m on a quest for sources, can you please provide a source for your claim that when the Ramban said we rejected yoshke because yoshke had died, he did not really mean it, and he only said it because that was all he could say?

    #2259203
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    CS: I’d use your medical analogy, but turn it against you. If a 3 year old would read a medical text cover to cover, would you trust what the kid says regarding medicine? No, because they can’t hope to understand it.
    Learning chassidus/kabalah as the primary type of Torah is like a 3 year old reading a medical text. You can’t hope to understand it, because the foundations are in Chumash, Mishnayos, and Gemara. You may think you’re an expert, but you’re not, because you’re missing the foundations. You just twist the words to suit your goals – just like the story I wrote earlier, painting the targets around the arrows.

    #2259204
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “Arso, the point is they all say the concealment period is different times. It’s not Halacha, and obviously the geula will not be delayed when we merit it because we have to fit exactly 45 years + the bit he mentions.”

    Pleeeeeaaase stop doing that! It’s really frustrating!

    I’m referring to the way you quote meforshim and then say, “Only accept the bits that suit my argument.”

    You can’t – I really feel like swearing here! – quote Rashi and then say, “Ignore the part that says 45 years because that doesn’t work for me.”

    Can you find any example of others on this thread who have done anything like that? I don’t think so. Men who are bnei Torah – even not the greatest of talmidei chachomim – NEVER argue that way because we know it is nonsensical. If you’re going to have a discussion with men, you can’t argue that way either!

    #2259205
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “Qwerty,
    The Rebbe didn’t make up the term Nassi, it’s found in rashi, and other sefarim. The other Rebbeim used it too , as far as I know. In any case it’sa description of a position. No more arrogant than you going by the title of your profession.”

    I believe that I can take the credit for saying that the term Nassi, as applied by Lubavich, was made up by Lubavich – quite possibly the LR we are dealing with. Not Qwerty. I have written about it at some length on earlier threads.

    Of course it’s found in Rashi and other sefarim. I’ll let you in on a little secret: it’s also in Chumash and the gemoro. But it has not applied to anyone for a millennium and a half. That is until Lubavich, in their great humility, decided to use it for themselves.

    #2259206
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “which was very real in their reality although it wasn’t true”

    I can’t believe a G-d-fearing Yid could write a statement like that in regards to anything at all! It is probably the wokest statement that I have seen in YWN.

    Real in their reality but not true?! If it’s real, it’s true. If it’s not true it’s not real.

    Could a belief in a statement like that possibly be the root cause of the problems in Lubavich?

    #2259207
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “So we don’t need a new Rebbe to tell us what is needed today- we know exactly what to do”

    Does that include breaking the wall of 770? It seems some know that that is exactly what to do, while others know that that is exactly NOT what to do.

    #2259219
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    CS unintentionally resolved the difficulty which has been the subject of so much discussion, Moshiach coming from the dead. In fact only the Rebbe’s guf gass died but his guf dak is still alive and so he’s mot dead at all. Rather he’s hanging out at 770. This explains how he cam gey Aliyahs everyonday amd Thursday. Moreover because the Rebbe was an engineer he made the plans for the tunnels. Several years ago a Lubavicher came tp our shul and spoke at the Kiddush, “People make a mistake when they compare the Rebbe to Moshe. The Rebbe was much greater.” He explained, “The Torah says that Moshe ggot angry, but the Rebbe never got angry.” Yes CT Chabad is a normal variant of Judaism.

    #2259358
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CT
    1] Ramban is in sefer havikuach – part of kisvei haramban
    2] you did not answer whether all yidden who do not listen to ‘nevua’ of the leader of habad are hayav mitah byedi shamayim or not [and why]
    3] According to your explanation of nevua i. e. every rebbe of habad who gave etsot in gashmiyut is a navi . we should extend that to every rabbi in yahadut who gives etsot in gashmiyut . why only to habad rebbeim ?
    so, following your reasoning nevua NEVER stopped in in Jewish History . Every rabbi gave etsot in gashmiyut . this NEVER stopped .
    Ela Mai – they gave etsot because it says in AVOT Ch 6 . Kol Halomed Torah LiShma … Nehenin Mimenu Etsa VeToshiya…
    Ditto for the Rebeim of Habad .


    @Arso

    It is mentioned in Tanya . Quite a Mitnagdishe Shtikel I must say …

    To the Group

    CS promised to be honest
    Meanwhile all I see is more of circle painting around the arrows and then claiming to have hit the target.

    “To the group”? Are you qwerty613?

    #2259367
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    All Your sources about ‘DISAPPEARANCES’ have No connection whatsoever to the Ramban who is talking about DYING before finishing the Geula .
    A sloppy proof is BY DEFINITION — no proof !

    Lehavdil the Xtians employ that same method . They bring one so called ‘proof’ , its sloppy and flimsy , not watertight , so they move on to the next one , and all you get at the end is a repetition of countless ‘non proofs’ which prove …. NOTHING .

    On the other hand you have a clear RAMBAN .
    And the clear HABAD shitah pre 94 ,accepting that Ramban
    And a Rambam that a dead mashiach is no mashiach [hilch. melachim]
    And a universal acceptance by klal yisrael bemeshech kol hadorot

    Isn’t it obvious that the source of CS’s and all other habadi’s so called “Proofs” stem from their deep wish have their arrow surrounded by the appropriate circles ?

    HOW BLIND CAN YOU GET ?
    .

    #2259382

    Arso: a melamed in a cheder of FRUM kids from FRUM families, as well as anyone else involved in chinuch, is doing just as an important job as Lubavichers or others who work in kiruv

    Without diminishing the role, these kids have parents who have a mitzva of teaching their kids and they are capable of hiring a melamed. Those other lost kids are like orphans as there is nobody to hire a melamed for them. Maybe, if you are melamed who is teaching kids for free, or at least not differentiating between those who pay you and those who do not, then you might be comparable.

    On the other hand, you are right, the “frum” people also need to be baalei teshuva.

    #2259384

    CS > probably would have cost him [Rambam] his head.

    Did Muslims of his time get that agitated about the founder of another religion who they in theory respected? Rambam did risk his head when he was confronted by a witness who said Rambam previously behaved as a Muslim, probably in the times he was learning science in or near Fez medrasa/aka first university.

    #2259401
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS

    @Arso

    re the term nasi .
    The problem is not so much the term nasi [although I do see a problem as it is more elevated than the term rebbe or admor which is used in other circles]

    Rather the problem is the word which is mentioned after the term nassi :

    NASSI HADOR

    the whole generation ….

    Cannot remember the whole generation getting together and appointing the leader of the habad hasidim as Leader of the Whole Generation ….

    What really happened – was the following : Habad hasidim [a small minority when using a worldwide Orthodoxy perspective] , crowned their leader as nasi over the overwhelming majority of Orthodox [non habad] Jews who did not even have any voting rights …..

    You can give it any name you fancy . I would call this “Cultural Imperialism”.

    But in the greater scheme of things , this is understandable [and even logical] .

    Think about it .
    If your end goal is to get all Jews to accept your leader’s messianic position , you have to first prepare their psyche .

    First let them get used to calling him Nassi hador . Nassi of EVERYONE.
    The next step – the messiah of EVERYONE , is not such a big unsurmountable step anymore …..

    Food for thought …..

    #2259430
    ARSo
    Participant

    Always Ask: “Without diminishing the role, these kids have parents who have a mitzva of teaching their kids and they are capable of hiring a melamed”

    Theoretically, yes, but unfortunately nowadays it is so often the case that parents are not mechanech their kids properly, and it is up to the melamed to instill Torah values. Speak to melamdim and you’ll hear lots of hairraising stories of kids who are being “allowed” to go off the derech by their parents being ineffective and/or scared of the kids.

    #2259442
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty

    “He may have been your leader but he certainly wasn’t the leader of Klal Yisrael.”

    How about you may not consider him your leader but myriads of Jews from all walks of life were touched by the Rebbe, and many many from all backgrounds came to him for personal interaction and guidance Yechidus and dollars.

    “ As for me being arrogant for calling myself doctor. That’s the title I earned and was given to me by the state of NY. Should I tell my patients to call me qwerty?”

    Sorry I didn’t remember your stated profession. It was meant to be an innocent example.

    “ You keep returning to my supposed slander. We both agree that the Rebbe called himself god clothed on human form. You choose to believe that thos is correct. I choose to believe, as do all rational Jews, that this is Kefirah.”

    It is evident from the way you post about it that your understanding of it is kefira. That’s unfortunate but when I was a high school girl and learned it in the sicha it’s in by “chance”, I didn’t understand it the way you do, and no Lubavitcher would.

    #2259446
    CS
    Participant

    Ca

    That’s a different discussion. We all know what we saw happened on Gimmel Tammuz, we can all see the clues in the sichos and the Rebbes actions in hindsight. And yet, there are references that make it clear to us that there’s a lot more here than meets our eye. We have various sources that bridge the gap such as the Rabbeinu Bachya mentioned, but ultimately no one will know until this period is over.

    #2259450
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “Simply, it doesn’t make sense. If the LR was himself Mashiach why refer to his father-in-law as Mashiach? And why “get answers” from his father-in-law’s grave? Wasn’t he good enough to be Mashiach on his own, or has Mashiach in your mind become a Siamese-twin concept? (Please don’t tell me that since the Rambam doesn’t say anything against it, that might indeed be the case ☹.)”

    The Rebbe was completely batul to his father in law, and only finally agreed to take on the nesius when his wife, (FR’s daughter) told him that if he doesn’t do so, all her fathers work will go to waste. The Rebbe was Malchus which is the sefira that doesn’t have anything of its own but crowns the next level. The Rebbe campaigned for every chossid to have a mashpia and this was the Rebbes mashpia. Etc. in Lubavitch we have no problem being batul to the Rebbe, seeing how great he was and yet so incredibly batul to the Frierdiker Rebbe. In any case the Moshiach of the generation The Rebbe always considered his father in law. In the last two years of The Rebbes nesius, we saw some indications that this had switched to the Rebbe as the head of dor shvii.

    “In lubavitch, a Rebbe is not an inspirational yid.”

    Your naivete is showing once again! I have never heard a chossid of any Rebbe referring to his Rebbe as simply being an ‘inspirational Yid’. When will you learn that all the garbage taught to you in your Chassidic hashkafa classes – call them what you will – was designed to have you believe (wrongly, of course) that Lubavich is on an unbelievably higher level than Menagdim, Pailisher chassidim etc? It is all a crutch for you to lean on when you come face to face with people whose hashkofos are really Torah-true, and to prevent you realising that yours are false, misleading and dangerous.”

    No I actually got this education from outside of lubavitch starting from when I was in eighth grade and a Rebbes granddaughter was boasting about her zeidas car and it didn’t compute in my head that that would be something of importance to a Rebbe until she explained to me that their Rebbes aren’t the same anymore due to yeridas hadoros. Btw even the mashpiim etc of lubavitch, who understand as much about the Rebbe as a goat does, to quote R Hillel Paritcher, who was actually a tzaddik (not that todays are), could care less about physical status symbols.

    It then continued with the exposure to other groups and their lack of understanding of our natural bitul
    to the Rebbe, which makes sense in this light.

    Finally, your question about just replacing the Rebbe and a certain candidate you and others have referred to, just all confirm the same thing. My idea of a Rebbe and yours are completely different. Apples and oranges.

    “He said, “They should not be singing a niggun of a group who consider only themselves as having the true path.”

    We don’t consider ourselves as having the only true path, but we chose it because we think it’s the best path (as I hope others feel they found the best for them) and we feel incredibly lucky to be the Rebbes chassidim.

    “but there are references to it being the dor hashvii”

    What are the sources of those references?”

    Fair question. This is really inside info though only meant for those individuals who are already living with a geula mindset and seriously interested to know for the right reasons. I can tell you that if you learn the sichos of 5751 and 5752, especially with a Lubavitcher, and pay attention to the footnotes, there’s a ton of info in them, including what you’re asking. I know you won’t be doing that, but that’s my part in answering.

    “And while I’m on a quest for sources, can you please provide a source for your claim that when the Ramban said we rejected yoshke because yoshke had died, he did not really mean it, and he only said it because that was all he could say?”

    I’ve asked someone, in the meantime, you and YB should please answer how the Ramban could contradict the gemara (think it’s sanhedrin 98) which says that Moshiach can come from the dead or the living, and Rashi brings two examples of individuals thus suited from both. We all know the Gemara predated the Ramban.

    #2259451
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “You can’t – I really feel like swearing here! – quote Rashi and then say, “Ignore the part that says 45 years because that doesn’t work for me.”

    Can you find any example of others on this thread who have done anything like that? I don’t think so. Men who are bnei Torah – even not the greatest of talmidei chachomim – NEVER argue that way because we know it is nonsensical. If you’re going to have a discussion with men, you can’t argue that way either!”

    Ok please explain how Rashi could have brought the number 45+ when his sources in the Medrash gives a different number?

    Secondly, why is it a problem to say geula can always come quicker? If it has to conform to a number, why are you a kofer if you don’t expect Moshiach every day? Especially if the number is exactly 45+?

    Thirdly, if even a NEVUAH that is negative can be completely abolished, why is it crazy to say that Moshiach can come way sooner than the number a mefaresh says?

    Fourthly, if even the various sources on the topic disagree on the length, and various sources say it is a TEST, why can’t I conclude that the main idea is there, the difference is in the details of time- which implies that we don’t know the exact time, because as stated, it’sa TEST?

    Fifthly I’d be delighted to stop answering to this and let a male take over. Looking for proper candidates who will explain things clearly without avoiding what the Rebbe said and did.

    #2259453
    CS
    Participant

    DaMoshe:

    “CS: I’d use your medical analogy, but turn it against you. If a 3 year old would read a medical text cover to cover, would you trust what the kid says regarding medicine? No, because they can’t hope to understand it.
    Learning chassidus/kabalah as the primary type of Torah is like a 3 year old reading a medical text. You can’t hope to understand it, because the foundations are in Chumash, Mishnayos, and Gemara. You may think you’re an expert, but you’re not, because you’re missing the foundations. You just twist the words to suit your goals – just like the story I wrote earlier, painting the targets around the arrows.”

    Chassidus is not the same as kabbala, it’s basically the essence of Torah which can bring together all the other parts and apply it to human understanding. (You’re welcome to learn kutres inyana shel Toras HaChassidus for more info and sources.) Because it always ties down to the practical, it’s not dangerous. I think what is dangerous is litvishe people coming with their understanding of Hashem’s Unity, hashgocha protis, Rebbe, Neshama, yid etc, and then seeing a one liner here or there- they’re the ones who seem to have difficulty understanding Chassidus. It’s not that they’re less smart. Is that they may have less education on these topics, as the essence of them is not discussed well in nigle, and they just throw these things around like a joke. Like the Atzmus sicha.

    #2259456
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “That is until Lubavich, in their great humility, decided to use it for themselves.”

    Is calling ourselves the chosen nation arrogant? No because it’s much more of a responsibility and liability. Taking the title of Nassi means taking responsibility to be there for every Jew in any way needed. If you feel your Rebbe behaves in this way, feel free to call him nassi too. I really don’t care.

    #2259460
    CS
    Participant

    Arso:

    “CS: “which was very real in their reality although it wasn’t true”

    I can’t believe a G-d-fearing Yid could write a statement like that in regards to anything at all! It is probably the wokest statement that I have seen in YWN.

    Real in their reality but not true?! If it’s real, it’s true. If it’s not true it’s not real.”

    Look I’m sorry you never came across this. There’s two realities: Hashem is the Only Existence period. 2) I’m here.

    Hashem created this world with these two senses of reality, and our avoda is to realize and internalize that the truth is 1, and make that true in 2.

    Now these two realities can seem conflicting sometimes. The Yidden really saw a funeral. Moshe was still very much alive.

    Yakov was embalmed and buried. He was alive and opened his eyes and smiled when Esavs head was knocked off.

    #2259462
    CS
    Participant

    Arso:

    “CS: “So we don’t need a new Rebbe to tell us what is needed today- we know exactly what to do”

    Does that include breaking the wall of 770? It seems some know that that is exactly what to do, while others know that that is exactly NOT what to do.”

    Everyone has free choice. Those who are sincere, speak to their Rabbanim and mashpiim and learn as much as they can, have plenty to do and know exactly what to do…

    #2259467
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty

    “This explains how he cam gey Aliyahs everyonday amd Thursday.”

    Yes that’s the root of it, but that behavior has no sanction by Rabbonim or sources in the Rebbes sichos.

    #2259471
    CS
    Participant

    Yb I’ll get back to you at my next opportunity iyH.

    #2259478
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To yankel berel

    They have irrefutable proof that he was Nosi Hador, he said so. In fact he said that every one of the seven Chabad Rebbes was Nasi Hador. Try betting that. For 250 years the greatest Jew is a Lubavicher. Talk about rigging the elections.

    #2259509
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    CS: Saying an individual is god clothed in human form is absolute kefirah. If you say no Lubavitcher would see it that way, and they all believe it’s true, then you’re saying that all Lubavitchers are kofrim.
    Thank you for clarifying that for me. I was hesitant at times to daven in a Chabad House, even when traveling to a place where there are no shuls. Now I know that I was correct, and I will daven b’yichidus rather than go to a Chabad House.

    #2259597
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To DaMoshe

    I can’t definitively state if they all believe it but since no one in Chabad has spoken out against this kefirah it’s safe to assume that Hashem is judging them all as Kofrim and Avodei Zarah. As for my davening in a Chabad shul I’m relying on the fact that they haven ‘t been officially excised from the teligion by the Gedolim. I do admit that I might be wrong but I can’t imagin not davening with a minyan.

    To CS

    You argue that the Rebbe is Nosi Hador because he influenced so many people. I’ve go a scoop for you. My wife is a follower of the Rebbe but not Chabad. She goes to the Ohel about 10 times a year because she believes in him. No she doesn’t ask me to jpin her. She hates the fact that I attack Chabad and the Rebbe but the Torah demands that you kofrim be exposed.

    #2259600
    CS
    Participant

    Getting back to Arso regarding the yichus question. The rabbi I know who’s knowledgeable in this field sent me copies of several pages of a sefer written on this with copious references to other sources. It’s not on Hebrew books and I’m not going to write up and translate the entire thing. I can send you the book title and page numbers if you’re that interested in getting a physical copy.

    Or if there’sa way to upload them here, and you want them, lmk.

    #2259620
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    qwerty, here is what R’ Belsky zt”l said about Chabad:
    “Chabad used to be about disseminating Chassidic teachings which the Baal HaTanya wrote, saying his Divrei Torah, etc. In America, Chabad started out with Shlichim going out and bringing the masses back to Judaism. These are goals which we share and do not contest.

    But present-day Chabad has nothing to do with the above. Present-day Chabad has become a personal cult centered on the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. Everything they do from beginning to end, revolves around this. They constantly project his image, talk about him and how great he was, how smart he was, how he was a better strategist than all the generals, that he was Mashiach. etc. This is the way people talk about a cult figure. There’s no room in Yiddeshkeit for a personality cult in which an individual is deified and glorified. Whether he was great or wasn’t great is immaterial. There have been many great people in Judaism. The personality cult of glorifying an individual person, giving him unique titles, elevating the shape other building he was active in. etc., has no place in Yiddishkeit.”

    #2259623

    And with those words from a Gadol B’Yisroel who didn’t glorify his car despite yeridas Hadoros – this thread is closed.

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