A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

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  • #2258461
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.

    #2258491
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To yb

    There’s no point trying to get through to Lubavichers. While I for one will acknowledge the Rebbe’s genius etc no Lubavicher will ever admit that any point we make has validity.

    #2258493
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.

    #2258502
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To DaMoshe

    Just a desperate ploy by CS who senses that her cause is lost. We recognize Reb Chaim’s greatness in Torah but no one suggests he’s Moshiach and certaimly not god.

    To CT

    Your silence is deafening.

    #2258456
    CS
    Participant

    Btw all of this has taken on practical importance to me in the past few days. Seeing the hostage release proposal, which is below stupid seeing that we have experience from the shalit deal (sinwar was released then), October 7, etc etc, and then looking around the government/ parties to see who would be best to pin hopes on leading Eretz Yisraels security so as to be a keili for Hashems miracles… And there’s literally no one.

    The not frum crumble under the vast internal and international pressure (just look at this hostage plan from the best smooth talking diplomat).

    The frum don’t really mix into Israel’s security, and mainly focus on frum matters such as the draft etc. Many of them were also told by their Rabbonim to support the withdrawal from gush katif, oslo etc. which we all see what it has led to.

    We had a religious Zionist who also made incredible compromises of values.

    There’s really no one. The only one who pushed the formulas which have been successful in EY, advised countless security members including Prime Ministers, effectively, and was proven right every time was The Rebbe. The Rebbe pushed for shleimus Haaretz (no giving away our land both because it’s ours and for security), shleimus haam (fought for Mihu Yehudi) and shleimus HaTorah (without the hundreds of shluchim in EY, the so called chilonim would not be as Mitzvah observant as they are- shabbos candles, kashrus, Yomim Tovim, not to mention baalei teshuvah etc etc etc)

    He also advised on how to counter international pressure.

    The Rebbe could also unite the people around him as he is well loved by many disparate populations there.

    Really, all there is to do is to daven that the first stage of techias hameisim happen ASAP (Tzaddikim rise earlier), with Moshiach with them, and finish off the job he started.

    Agav, Chabad cannot otherwise be part of the government, because the policy is to stay apolitical to be able to unite all yidden around Torah and Mitzvos. There have been one or two exceptions but this is the policy.

    #2258515
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    This thread should be renamed, “As CS changes the subject”
    As I told Menachem Shmei on numerous occasions,”If you can’t or won’t answer a question it’s checkmate.”

    #2258523

    “Really, all there is to do is to daven that the first stage of techias hameisim happen ASAP (Tzaddikim rise earlier), with Moshiach with them, and finish off the job he started.“

    😂

    You along with the notzrim

    A second coming……

    #2258545
    ARSo
    Participant

    DaMoshe: “Arso, about the Gulf War, you made a mistake. R’ Chaim didn’t say nothing would happen in Israel. He said it specifically about Bnei Brak, not the entire Israel.”

    If so, I stand corrected on that. Thanks.

    CS: “Secondly, you have homework now: (I’ve saved mine from the other day): 1. Proof that The Rebbe said not one Jew will die”

    Being a little older than you, I remember it! I don’t know whether I can find a proof, as it’s likely that if it ever was online it has since been deleted, but I hope to search for it. Nonetheless, as I wrote, I remember it clearly.

    “2. Proof for your claim that indeed two Jews died directly from the rockets”

    Google “how many people died in Israel during the 1991 gulf war” and look through the numerous sites, including at least one official Israeli site.
    And if you expect me to prove those sites as correct and truthful, I can’t because I didn’t work in the chevra kadisha.

    I just did a search for your no. 1. and what I did find is that the Lubavicher rebbe said before the Gulf War that Israel is the safest place in the world. I don’t think it was for all those people who died due to war-related incidents. Do you?

    #2258546
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS, the sefer (actually a Torah journal) is called צפונות, and the issue in question is from שנה ג גלון יד. As I wrote its book number 26654, so search for anything, then change the book number to 26654 and see 70 and 71.

    “just for everyone’s info: taking a public stance
    comes with liability. My father was a Bochur during the gulf war, and the lubavitch bochurim would go to the rooftops during sirens and watch the scuds explode. The Rebbe promised…”

    I wonder whether those people who were killed were also standing on a roof watching the scuds…

    yankel berel: “What is missing here an acknowledgement from the Habad side that there were two colossal u – turns in habad theology in the last 40 – 50 years .”

    I seem to remember you mentioning this in the past, but I can’t remember what it is referring to. Can you please refresh my memory?

    #2258556
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    You imputed that I’m not familiar with the concept of a Sichah and that’s why I reject it. Since I’ve been davening in a Chabad shul for years I’d have to be retarded not to be aware of the Rebbe’s sichos. IMHO a sichah is the Rebbe making something up which is at odds with our accepted trsditions and then using his encyclopedic knowledge to produce supporting evidence(of course I don’t mean that everything he said was a lie just as I accept most but not all of Rabbi Miller’s Torah).The problem is that you take this one step further and invent “the three stage process” and then convince yourself that it’s true. Where are your sources?

    #2258547
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @coffee addict
    we have to take this second coming business seriously.
    It is not a joke and should not be taken lightly.
    It is clear that the notsrim are using habad’s second coming meshigaas to promote their impostors candidacy .
    For the last 2 thousand years the yehudim heroically resisted all attempts to lure them away from their heritage .
    It is a pity that just before the end of the galut ,we ourselves should create a new instrument to lure our innocent brothers and sisters towards a two thousand year discredited avoda zara.
    It should stay the same as it was for the Milenia of Jewish History . –
    A Second Coming is COMPLETE ANATHEMA in Judaism .
    Refer to the RAMBAN’s refutation of the Meshumad in his Vikuach in front of the King of Spain .
    This is a serious topic and deserves our attention in a serious way.

    #2258616
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To yb

    I don’t think Coffee waa making light of the Chabad belief in a aecond coming rather he was pointing out how odious is such a suvgestion. More than a decade ago Shmuely Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program and Zev asked him if he thought the Rebbe was Moshiach. Boteach answered, “The Rebbe is the greatest influence in my life, but he can’t be Moshiach because Judaism flatly rejects any suggestion of a second coming.”

    To CS

    Still waiting for your proof(s) that I’ve used Koshon Hora.

    Edited

    #2258661

    I wasn’t making light, like qwerty was stating, I was showing how moshichists don’t sound that much different than early notzrim and the only reason I believe that they haven’t followed in that path is that there hasn’t been anyone to distance them from yoddishkeit (no one has told them that the Rebbe came to him in a dream and said to move shabbos to Tuesday)

    If this is what Lubavitch really believes, I find that to be really disturbing

    #2258684
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    I am old enough to remember this myself .
    Lo teheh Shmi’a gdolah MeRe’iya.
    The Rebbe of habad came out unequivocally and 1] promised that no one will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War .
    This was distributed by the hasidim in the name of their rebbe with a “Shturem” .
    Then 2] this was used to establish the navi [emet – sheker?] credentials .
    he promised in advance and in fact really nothing happened ,no one died , no one was injured , thus he was crowned as navi .
    So we BH have – Hagai zharya malahi and RMMS.
    Both [the promise plus the navi credentials] were made by OFFICIAL habad publications .
    The kfar habad weekly magazine , dvar malhut .
    I remember those heady days . Nearly every week there was more news. The Rebbe of the habad hasiddim got them into a real frenzy with new utterances all the time about the geoula [ not the impending one – rather the one they were supposed to open their eyes to] which was already happening right under their noses.
    This was not the last generation of the galut . This was [supposedly] the first generation of the geoula !
    [some thirty odd years ago …]
    Suppose we can look it all up in the archives of kfar habad magazine of 1990 – 1992 in the period leading up to the stroke in ’92.


    @Arso

    Re the 2 colossal u turns – they are another topic which deserves mention in their own right
    Od hazon Lamo’ed bln

    .

    #2258685
    my voice
    Participant

    @cs
    I’ve been following this conversation with quite some amusement, and one thing I can say is that my belief in chazals wisdom in exhorting women not to learn (except for applicable HALACHA) has exponentially increased.

    #2258695
    CS
    Participant

    “ Apples and oranges ”

    Mr mod, while I admire your admirable approving/ editing, I disagree with you here. It’s not just about the Rebbe being Moshiach (and he claimed his father in law as such…) it’s also about Nevuah (he showed how nevuah was present by all Rebbeim.) in other words, anything atypical. I should add the reverence the Chassidim have naturally, seeing who the Rebbe was and is, is called avoda zara even though all the original sources on the topic describe the way one should view his Rebbe exactly as we do. (Think Rambam, Pirkei Avos etc)

    Hence the natural conclusion is that this particular crowd of Jews is not used to being exposed to things beyond the realm of nature (whereas that was the expected with the Rebbe.) Which leads to the attitude in this demographic of, if it’s not what I’m used to/ what’s typical, it must be wrong/ person must be arrogant / misleading etc etc etc

    You a sorely misunderstanding the conversation 

    #2258696
    CS
    Participant

    YK which two you turns are you talking about? I do my best to be honest

    #2258697
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty
    “ You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.”

    Actually I said you accepted lashon hara, but you repeated it too so I guess that qualifies 😀.

    How about saying that The Rebbe said he’s god? Although the words may seem similar they are poolat and extreme opposites. If you don’t take the time to understand something serious properly, and then you parrot it, it’s actually not lashon hara, it’s motzei shem ra.

    Now you don’t understand it- that’s ok. I tried to put it very simply (did you see that post)? And it’s always best for complex matters to discuss it properly. You can call Rabbi Zajac for example.

    #2258699
    CS
    Participant

    Ca
    “ You along with the notzrim

    A second coming……”

    I hope you agree with the notzrim that we should await Moshiachs coming every day. Oh and believe in Moshiach to begin with. Otherwise…

    What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.

    Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.

    The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say (and the Rebbe actually wrote this about the Frierdiker Rebbe) that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
    the rest) and finish the job.

    I listed earlier in the thread, there are classical sources (rashi, Medrash, Rabbeinu Bachya, The Chasam Sofer) that say that Moshiach will start the job and then disappear for a period of time, and that this disappearance is a test of Emuna.

    #2258700
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    I don’t know you personally, what I do know is that you have a bitter bias against Chabad, so unfortunately I cannot take your word that you heard (and you’ve never said you were in 770, somehow I don’t picture you at a farbrengen). I hope you understand

    About your second point about Eretz Yisrael being the safest place, the way I appreciate it is that because there is no sar appointed to Eretz Yisrael, everything there is not just hashgocha protis, but very very pinpointed. Like on simchas Torah, got many stories were there of people who davened or took on one Mitzvah, and were inexplicably saved? When I was there, I felt it. I hadn’t experienced an atmosphere of a place beforehand, but I felt it there.

    And yes, there may have been an extremely limited number of people who died from side effects, but the natural death occurrences elsewhere (traffic accidents) were probably higher than the supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies.

    #2258701
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty, apparently some of my posts last night were posted after your new queries, so hopefully the answers will have come through above. I hope all your questions were answered, please lmk if not

    #2258698
    CS
    Participant

    DaMoshe

    “ CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.”

    Interesting. So the response of the Litvishe world to what I thought was well known is to doubt it? Was the person who said it reputable?

    #2258744

    Cs,

    Disappearance doesn’t mean die (moshe rabbeinu didn’t die when he “disappeared”

    Yet again you sound like a notzri trying to twist Torah and meforshim to fit your beliefs

    #2258747
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
    If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
    When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
    There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?

    #2258758
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.

    #2258760
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To DaMoshe

    You were Michavin to what I was thinking. Yes Joe Namath is Moshiach. He predicted the Jets would win the Super Bowl in 1969. Now we have to trace his lineage to Dovid Hamelech. Hey you never know

    Edited

     

    #2258769
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @Cs
    CS is claiming to their best to be honest .
    SO – lets start with the details already brought up –

    1] Official Habad claimed their leader as Navi Emet because he predicted no one will be hurt in First Gulf War in EY .
    True/False

    2] Fact is that people were hurt . Fact is that people died [directly and indirectly].
    True/False

    3] Rambam says clearly that if a candidate Navi predicts future and even one small detail is incorrect , we know for a fact that he is Navi Sheker and he is sentenced to death.
    True/ False

    Please answer the above 3 questions in a clear manner
    and your honest opinion plus well reasoned thinking behind your answers re the above and the following:

    A] is he a Navi Emet [about who the Torah commands [not merely advocates- but commands] Elav Tishma’un and whoever transgresses his words is hayav mitah biyedei shamayim al pi hahalaha ?
    Meaning the overwhelming majority of Klal Yisrael who ignore his words are Hayavim Mitah Biyede Shamayim [ChvSh] ?

    Or
    B] He is a Navi Sheker – Meaning that that he is Hayav Mitah BeBeth Din and that he should be kavur bein harsha’im who are hayavei mitah [chvsh] ?

    Or
    C] He is neither – not a Navi emet nor a Navi Sheker and no one is hayav mitah , not him and not the majority of Klal Yisrael ?

    Please , honest and WELL REASONED answers – for BOTH 1,2 and 3 , AND , A, B and C.

    THanks

    #2258773
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.

    Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
    The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say …. that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
    the rest) and finish the job.

    [Previous post by CS]
    ————————————————————-
    RAMBAN clearly states that the Notsrims Mashiach can’t be mashiach.
    And he also states the reason .
    NOT because he was a rasha.
    But because he started and [ to our eyes] passed away . EVEN IF HIS WORK AND INFLUENCE CONTINUED …..
    That was according to RAMBAN sufficient reason to say –
    HE CANNOT BE MASHIACH
    .
    This Ramban was not a chidush .
    It was pashut.
    Not challenged by anyone.
    Not in his days .
    Not in any of the multiple subsequent generations .
    Not even in 1992 and 1993

    ONLY from a very specific date in 1994 and onwards, was it discarded by some Jews [for some secret specific tsorech , I am not telling you what ,but you are allowed to guess it yourself]
    .
    Something against RAMBAN is treif .

    Yes ,treif .

    #2258787
    ARSo
    Participant

    So much stuff to comment on. I hope I do it justice and don’t miss anything out.

    CS, both yankel berel and myself REMEMBER the Lubavicher rebbe saying that not one Yid will be harmed/killed, and he was wrong. By your own admission, you were not born at the time, so you may heard a laundered version of his “prophesy”. (I prefer to refer to it as a prediction, which, as yankel berel writes, would not result in anyone being c”v chayav misa. Just one person, as knowledgeble as he may have been, being wrong.)

    And I’ll have to commend ‘my voice’ for saying what I have been thinking for a while, and have been reticent to write due to the woke world we unfortunately live in:
    “one thing I can say is that my belief in chazals wisdom in exhorting women not to learn (except for applicable HALACHA) has exponentially increased”

    #2258788
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “It’s not just about the Rebbe being Moshiach (and he claimed his father in law as such…)”

    Hold on a second. The Lubavicher rebbe claiimed his father-in-law was Mashiach? So was he wrong or right? If he was wrong, then you admit that he could be wrong, and thus possibly wrong in other statements. If he was right, then his father-in-law was Mashiach – and btw he hasn’t been alive for over 70 years and has still not returned! – so your rebbe was not Mashiach.
    Having had tons of experience with Lubavich obfuscating (another word which I never get to use, so please mods don’t delete that word!) I am guessing that you will answer something along the lines that they are really the same person and the neshama has moved from one to the other, being “nesi’im” of Chabad. So if that’s the case, simply appoint another live “nasi” and he wil be a live Mashiach, removing so many of the problems.
    (For the record, the title “nasi” is a term which I have shown on other earlier threads that does not exist, and was made up by Lubavich to suit themselves. That is why I have put it in quotes. No reason at this point to reiterate what I have written elsewhere.)

    “it’s also about Nevuah (he showed how nevuah was present by all Rebbeim.)”

    Claiming is not showing.

    “all the original sources on the topic describe the way one should view his Rebbe exactly as we do. (Think Rambam, Pirkei Avos etc)”

    There is not even one source that says that someone who comes up with outlandish, weird and unacceptable statements, thereby leading a large group of Yidden to believe in a second coming et al, should be viewed the way you view the LR. There are other reasons to make that claim, but אין כאן המקום להאריך.

    “Hence the natural conclusion is that this particular crowd of Jews is not used to being exposed to things beyond the realm of nature (whereas that was the expected with the Rebbe.)”

    I, who have been exposed for decades to many things beyond the realm of nature brought about by brochos of tzaddikim, should take offence at what you say. But I don’t because I know that despite you wanting very much to see the truth, you are facing away from it, and you therefore consider everybody else bent, and only Lubavich upright. Brainwashing in Lubavich has been going on for so long that they have it R”L down to a fine art.

    From the mods: “You are [corrected] sorely misunderstanding the conversation”

    Once again, the mods have hit the nail on the head.

    #2258789
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.”

    For the trillionth time, the LR did not start the job, any more than any other person who tries to bring Yidden closer to Torah and mitzvos. In fact, there are problems that he caused that those others did not cause, and that makes him a less-likely candidate.

    And for the record, as I see it a melamed in a cheder of FRUM kids from FRUM families, as well as anyone else involved in chinuch, is doing just as an important job as Lubavichers or others who work in kiruv (you prefer the word hafotzo because it makes you seem on a higher level – but that’s another thing I won’t go into now). Especially today with the street and its influences being what they are, keeping someone frum and aiding him in retaining his ingrained Yir’as Shomayim is not small feat and is, IMHO, more important that bringing people who are further away from Torah closer to it. After all, what is worse, a person born not-frum who unfortunately never becomes frum, c”v, or a frum kid who goes off the derech R”L?

    #2258790
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “I don’t know you personally, what I do know is that you have a bitter bias against Chabad, so unfortunately I cannot take your word that you heard (and you’ve never said you were in 770, somehow I don’t picture you at a farbrengen). I hope you understand”

    True I have an extremely strong bias against Lubavich, but I wouldn’t call it bitter. It just upsets me greatly the way Lubavich has attempted to bring concepts into the Torah world that have clearly always been unacceptable, and are distorting Torah-true hashkafah. And by that I mean hashkafah that has always been accepted by ALL streams of chareidi Jewry, including chassidim, misnagdim, Ashkenazim and Sefardim.

    Anyhow, as yankel berel wrote, he too remembers the prediction that no one will be killed in the Gulf War. So it’s just the two of us bitter people against the brainwashed multitude of Lubavicher, many of whom, I am sure also remember the prediction but won’t admit to it.

    “About your second point about Eretz Yisrael being the safest place, the way I appreciate it is…”

    Well said! The way YOU appreciate it, not the way it was understood literally by anyone who heard it at the time. Because the way it was understood then would have to lead you to conclude that the LR was wrong!

    “And yes, there may have been an extremely limited number of people who died from side effects”

    The two who were killed from missile strikes were killed by ‘side effects’?!

    “but the natural death occurrences elsewhere (traffic accidents) were probably higher than the supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies.”

    I’m not a mathematician, but I believe that ‘supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies’ is still more than the zero in the prediction… oops… sorry… nevuah.

    #2258791
    ARSo
    Participant

    yankel berel, I really liked your post about the Ramban’s reason for rejecting yoshke as Mashiach except for one minor point.

    I think you should have used the term “died” rather than “passed away” in reference to that false Mashiach.

    #2258828
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To CS

    You misunderstood what I meant about Rabbi Zajac. Qe don’t know each other. If I get stuck on a point in the Gemara I liaten to him online and he usually clarifies it for me. When it comes to Hashkafah and Halacha I have plenty of mainstream Rabbis to rely on

    #2258835
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    just now read your assertion that there are sources that M will start the job ,die, resurrect and finish .
    Against a clear Raman in sefer havikuach .
    Where are your sources please ?
    Am guessing those sources are talking about something else [although similar].

    #2258820
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is fundamental. Even though our Patriarch’s face is on the Kisei Hakovod the ladder was planted on the ground meaning he was grounded in normalcy. Rabbi Moshe Tendler spoke about his father in law and syressed how normal he was. Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.

    #2258832
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @Arso
    Thanks for liking of the post about RAMBAN .

    Re ‘two bitter’ people you are referring to .
    I am not bitter at all . I like the Habadi’s. They have tremendous qualities .
    I also happen to like clarity , however , and I hate obfuscation .
    So bitterness is not called for here , but clarity and honesty are .
    Common thread in habadi’s response is ,as you mentioned: obfuscation / change of topic.

    The other point you mentioned that there are 2 people [you and me] who stand against a multitude of brainwashed Habad hasidim

    – I wouldn’t characterize it that way . At all.
    rather it is the huge multitudes and the overwhelming majority of Yidden ,all around the world, from any type of background ,who all agree and look upon this strange and totally new theology with a huge dose of healthy skepticism , reality and sehel hayashar, and therefore reject it out of hand ,They stand against modern Habad theology whereas , in comparison, a very few [when compared to the rest of klal israel ] Habadi’s who refuse to think for themselves and keep mindlessly regurgitating the false platitudes they have been continuously fed .

    #2258910
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To ARSo and Yankel Berel

    You are both completely missing the boat by pointing out that rlthe Rebbe’s prediction(prophecy?) didn’t come true. The Rebbe’s credentials as a Novi allow him to retain that syatus even when he’s proven wrong. And there are many sources for this.

    #2258913
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To ARSo and Yankel Berel

    CS calls you “bitter people.” And she calls me ignorant besides what the moderators don’t let through. But that’s par for the course. Chabad tells ots minions that Rav Shach criticized them because he wasn’t given hiredb as a Rabbi in a Chabad yeshiva. And Dr. Berger wrote his book because he hadn’t published anything and he was going to lose his teaching position.

    #2258915
    CS
    Participant

    Wow alot here:

    YB: Regarding the Ramban, I have heard that it’s won somewhere, (this is either a fact or not, I’ll look into if others don’t know) the mode of refutation in those says, when the whole thing was dangerous to begin with, was not done in a completely truthful way The way we see things, but on their terms. So even if it may say something different in Torah shebaal peh, they would still argue it because the notzrim only cared about Torah shebichsav.

    Regarding the sources for the stages of revelation, concealment, final revelation, here you go (was on page 3):

    משיח נגלה ונכסה וחוזר ונגלה
    אשרי המחכה וגו’. ארבעים וחמש שנים נוספים על חשבון העליון שעתיד משיחנו להתכסות אחר שנגלה וישוב ויתגלה. וכן מצינו במדרש רות, וכן יסד רבי אליעזר הקליר )בסילוקיוצרפרשתהחדש(ויתכסהמהם ְשבּוִעיםששה.
    (רש”י דניאל יב, יב)

    משיח יתכסה כגואל הראשון
    ויהיה הגואל נגלה וחוזר ונכסה כדי להתעות את העכו”ם ולהקשות את לבם, שכן מצינו בגאולת מצרים שנגלה להם משה וחזר ונכסה מהם, וזהו שדרשו רבותינו ז”ל: ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן, אחר ששה חדשים נגלה הקב”ה במדין וא”ל: לך שוב מצרימה, בא משה ממדין ואהרן ממצרים ופגעו בהם שוטרי ישראל כשהם יוצאים מלפני פרעה. וכן דרשו במדרש חזית: דומה דודי לצבי, מה צבי זה הוא נראה ונכסה וחוזר ונראה, כן גואל הראשון נראה להם וחזר ונכסה מהם וחזר ונראה להם. וכמה נכסה מהם, רבי תנחומא אומר שלשה חדשים, הדא הוא דכתיב ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן. רבי יהודה ב”ר אומר ללריסין, כלומר לשון פגיעה לפרקין היא. וכן הגואל העתיד יהיה נגלה וחוזר ונכסה, שהרי גאולה זו עתידה
    (רבינו בחיי פר’ ויחי עמ’ מד)

    להיות כדמיון גאולת מצרים בהרבה ענינים.
    נסיון גדול
    וזה נסיון גדול שנעלם הגואל ששה חדשים, וכן יהי’ בימי משיח צדקינו, יהי’ נעלם אחר התגלות כדאיתא במדרש וה’ יעמוד לימין הצדיקים בבי”א.
    (תורת משה פר’ שמות)

    #2258920
    CS
    Participant

    DaMoshe:
    “CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
    If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
    When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
    There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?”

    Firstly this was a major prediction that no one else made and came with a lot of achrayus. Secondly, in the sicha, The Rebbe referenced the Alter Rebbe as saying that Chassidim should only ask for spiritual guidance, because guidance for physical matters belongs to neviim as Shaul asked the Navi Shmuel about his lost donkeys… yet we see that all Rebbeim, including the Alter Rebbe, did dispense advice about physical matters, which indicates they were neviim.

    Also, anyone can give a brocha and hope for the best, but at least in one instance, someone asked his Rebbe for not a bracha, but a havtacha, to which his Rebbe said that if he wants a havtacha, there’s only one place in the world- Lubavitch. The man did go to The Lubavitcher Rebbe, and did end up getting a havtacha. There are countless stories where The Rebbe told people not to have life saving surgeries, and similar situations, which turned out fine. Jem put out 2 books of such stories so far, with the individuals names and pictures, that they culled from their videoed interviews. There’s also much more online with jem media.

    #2258916
    CS
    Participant

    Regarding the question about the gulf war from yb, that’s a legitimate question. I’ve asked about it, and here’s what the rabbis reply was:

    Regarding the gulf war:
    The Rebbe said that we will see miracles and that Yidden are safe in EY

    Chassidim decided that it must mean that there will be no missiles etc. They publicised that and it caused a chillul (as it is not what he said)

    https://www.chabad dot org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62184/jewish/1991-Missiles-Miracles.htm

    https://derher dot org/wp-content/uploads/103-adar-5781-7.pdf

    Ps. Arso I haven’t finished with the yichus piece- looking into it thoroughly.

    #2258924
    CS
    Participant

    Ca,

    “Cs,

    Disappearance doesn’t mean die (moshe rabbeinu didn’t die when he “disappeared”

    I guess you missed the heavenly funeral bit. For starters

    #2258925
    CS
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    “CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.”

    Ok that’s fair

    #2258926
    ARSo
    Participant

    yankel berel: “The other point you mentioned that there are 2 people [you and me] who stand against a multitude of brainwashed Habad hasidim. I wouldn’t characterize it that way . At all. rather it is the huge multitudes…”

    Of course you’re right, and I mentioned that all streams of Torah-true Yidden are against this. However, here I was just referring to the two of us who are the only ones on this thread who remember melech hamoshiach, nosi doreinu, navi emess, saying that not one Yid will be killed.

    #2258928
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty,

    “I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.”

    No, the way you presented it, due to your lack of understanding, indicated that The Rebbe is god Himself- like god who took his whole self and became a person. That’s NOT what The Rebbe said, whether the words sound similar or not, and anyone with a basic background of Chassidus would know.

    The Rebbe meant the exact opposite, that the potential of every Jew, which the Rebbe is the head so able to actualize it, is to completely negate his sense of separate selfhood, and tap into his true identity of his Neshama which is one with Hashems Atzmus (not that he limits Hashem to being enclothed in one body cvs- rather- you look at him and see Atzmus- that he’sa G-dly person.)

    Hope that clarifies.

    #2258930
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “Hold on a second. The Lubavicher rebbe claiimed his father-in-law was Mashiach? So was he wrong or right? If he was wrong, then you admit that he could be wrong, and thus possibly wrong in other statements. If he was right, then his father-in-law was Mashiach – and btw he hasn’t been alive for over 70 years and has still not returned! – so your rebbe was not Mashiach.”

    The Rebbe was completely batul to his father in law, and even took the panim he received to the Frierdiker Rebbes ohel, where he would come back with the answers. When the Rashag was once pressed as to why he dropped his bid to become Rebbe, and became a chossid of his brother in law, he said that since the Frierdiker Rebbes histalkus, he hasn’t heard from him, whereas his brother in law, The Rebbe claimed to be in touch. One thing I know, he said, I’d that my brother in law is not a lier. So I became his chossid.

    Basically they’re one essence, even more than the other Rebbeim, as this kept up the entire nesius. So either way is fine, but there are references to it being the dor hashvii etc.

    “Having had tons of experience with Lubavich obfuscating (another word which I never get to use, so please mods don’t delete that word!) I am guessing that you will answer something along the lines that they are really the same person and the neshama has moved from one to the other, being “nesi’im” of Chabad. So if that’s the case, simply appoint another live “nasi” and he wil be a live Mashiach, removing so many of the problems.”

    2 answers:
    1. In lubavitch, a Rebbe is not an inspirational
    yid. We have Mashpiim and Rabbonim. He is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu, who stood
    between the yidden and Hashem, whose every word is Hashem’s word. (A Rebbe doesn’t know everything, but whatever he says in response to a chossid is from Hashem. Like the time The Rebbe advised someone to miss their place with later crashed- when asked why he didn’t say the reason so more people could have been saved- he said he didn’t know the reason. He just knew that the person shouldn’t get on.) this applies in Avodas Hashem- what is this persons personal shlichus in this world, generational shlichus etc. And also to help people connect to Hashem and help them receive Hashem’s brachos, which may have been impeded by certain things with the Rebbe tells the person to take care of (being more careful with a certain Mitzvah etc.)

    If you need a tailor, even if there’s an abundance of plumbers, it’s not gonna help you. Same here, there is simply no one else of Rebbe material in Lubavitch, and if you’rea good mashpia or Rav, that’s wonderful, but you’re nota a Rebbe.

    Answer 2: The Rebbe told us all that were the next Rebbe- meaning he turned over the mission he devoted his life to, to us. So we don’t need a new Rebbe to tell us what is needed today- we know exactly what to do and have the tools to do it. By the Rebbes kevura, the shluchim promised not to stop their shlichus, and to carry on until we succeed in bringing Moshiach, which is what we were tasked with. So it’s irrelevant.

    #2258931
    CS
    Participant

    Arso, I agree with you that the ultimate vision is not to take care of just not frum. The ideal vision that The Rebbe left us with is that every yid is a shliach. Whatever their talents are, whether in shlichus, teaching, business etc. they do that job with a sense of shlichus, always looking out to help other yidden come closer to Hashem, as well as themselves, and prepare the world for Moshiach.

    #2258934
    CS
    Participant

    Qwerty
    “Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.”

    I’m not familiar with his shiurim, but he was probably referring to what it says in Tanya, that because forgetfulness comes from klipa, we won’t need to learn Halacha more than once as we won’t forget it. Also, the Tanya continues, it could be that by learning the mysticism behind the Halacha, we will anyways know the Halacha. Therefore, our time will be spent on the secrets of the Torah, but this is not because we won’t keep Halacha, au contraire as above.

    In fact, the Rebbe always sent people to Rabbanim, and stressed that any changes in observance of Halacha can only happen through Rabbanim.

    #2258937
    CS
    Participant

    Btw, to YB:

    Knowing history, I’m not surprised The Rambams didn’t use the most obvious argument- that yoshke was never Moshiach material, (as Rabbi Immanuel Schochet A”H did in his debates), even though that should be fairly obvious to us all, I hope, because it probably would have cost him his head.

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