A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

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  • #2254206
    Ysiegel
    Participant

    @lakewhut
    We have not just writings from 40 years ago, but even audio recordings…and many, many writings and first hand accounts of those who were there (so 1st and 2nd hand accounts, not so much 3rd).
    Gdolim in Chabad – R’ Yoel was a very big one until he passed, the Jacobsons are major (YY and Simon), not to forget good ol’ Manis Friedman and his brothers….In EY there are quite a few that I’m more familiar with (I’m sure there are plenty of names of Gdolim of Chabad who are more in the “nigleh” realm – their names don’t tend to be as broadly known because the more knowledgeable Chabad Chassidim (and there are plenty of them) don’t make themselves very well known for their Torah knowledge, I’m more familiar with those in EY) – there are the members of the Chabad Beis Din, which the Rebbe ZY”A established to make proper decisions on the derech HaTorah as it pertains to the derech that the Rebbe established within Chabad – Rabbi Yeruslavski, Rabbi Gluchovsky, etc. There’s Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer who’s a tremendous Talmid Chochom, (I’m talking about nigleh now, of course), Rabbi Goldshmidt (The grandfather – who’s extremely knowledgeable in all chelkei haTorah – when he first received a position as Rosh Yeshiva in the Chabad Mesivta in Bnei Brak, he was asked to take the Heichal Shlomo test in order to be officially recognized by the medina as being a rav, so he took a bus over that day and got 100% on the test…), Rabbi Volpa is a major figure as well with an amazing wealth of knowledge, oh, and not to forget Rabbi Farkash! He’s an amazing one… There’s Rabbi Goldberg from Migdal Haemek as well, and a number of other geonim from the latter….and so on.

    Each of these names are an authority in his own home town or neighborhood, and Chabad Chassidim look to them for guidance on particular matters. The bigger Chabad figures – such as the ones first mentioned, like the Jacobsons, Manis, Shais Taub, etc… – are famous for their knowledge of Chabad Chassidus, specifically the Rebbe’s, and in this capacity, are turned to for guidance in place of the Rebbe – only it’s not so much as “instead of” the Rebbe, as it is “what would the Rebbe have told me to do in such a case? – And since the Rebbe left so many teachings to be learned, and sooo many letters answering specific and general questions in light of these teachings, and on and on, it is very easy for an individual knowledgeable in these teachings etc. to provide guidance based on them.

    Arguably, since the Rebbe realized that the event of Gimmel Tammuz would eventually arrive, he must have taken several measures to prepare for that event —
    (just as an anecdote, for the yellow flaggers among us – the Rebbe himself is the one who designed the compound of the Ohel, where the Rebbe and his predecessor are both buried, and if you consider the way it was designed before the Rebbe’s own histalkus, you will notice something very “strange” indeed – the Previous Rebbe’s tzion is not located, as I would “expect” if I were waving yellow flags around, in the center of the compound, but rather it was placed BY THE REBBE HIMSELF, very conveniently, off to the side, ALMOST as if to leave room for another kever where the Rebbe’s own kever happens to be today! Imagine that!)

    As I was saying, one of the measures the Rebbe took ahead of the inevitable, was to institute a practice of each chossid having a Rav and/or Mashpia to approach with personal questions. Very often the Rebbe would refer those asking questions to a Rav instead of answering himself, proabably in order to strengthen this established inyan.

    And to @2qwerty
    Yes, obviously.

    #2254252
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @yseigel, that list is just plain ludicrous, if all it takes if some knowledge of the Rebbe’s ZTL torah and speaking ability then throw in Shmuly Boteach for good measure, fact of the matter is there is no one of the caliber of Reb Mendel Futufas ZTL or Reb Yoel Kahn ZTL hence the hefervelt we see today.

    I grew up in the 70s and 80s and the zeknai lubabvich were simple g-d fearing people who would never never thought of breaking down walls in a shul because of some warped person decided to do so.
    And yes you need a living breathing person to guide you.

    #2254306
    Ysiegel
    Participant

    I’d like to mention another inyan in relation to what @2qwerty asked, something that is mentioned (more often “in-between the lines” to those who learn l’iyuna) in Chassidus but is not often “noticed” or mentioned by Chabadniks unfortunately – there is a concept in Torah known as a “moshiach prati” – a private mashiach. The concept of mashiach refers to a daas Torah who in one way or another “redeems” another Yid, or a number of Yidden, from their own personal Mitzrayim/galus. By following a certain derech of Torah (70 panim…) as is laid out by an authoritative figure, a Jew hopes to climb to new heights in his avoda by following that derech. Climbing heights in this avoda effectively serves as an exodus from his personal mitzrayim, whether each day, each month, year, etc. This is one of the deeper explanations behind the discussion in Sanhedrin in which each Tanna will say the name of Moshiach, where they will mention their own teacher’s name. It is obvious that asked who the moshiach is, a Torah-based individual would mention his own rebbe’s name, because THAT is whom he holds to be the ACTUAL individual who has taken/takes him out of galus! Indeed, beyond this personal relationship, the talmid would pray and hope that his own rebbe would take ALL of Israel out of Galus, as the mashiach klali, but the two are not mutually exclusive. This is also why they mention even names of figures who have already passed – since it is not relevant in terms of following their own teacher’s path as the derech to one’s personal geula, since their teachings carry on.

    Now, Chabad chassidim still hold the Rebbe to be their own personal mashiach in that same regard – we still follow his teachings, we still hope to spread his teachings with the hope that their light and influence can aid the avodas Hashem of other Yidden (no, it’s not the only way, but obviously we will be proud of what we have). I’m NOT speaking about extreme cases right now, just about the essential inyan. I’m NOT going into the politics, the actual practices of many Chabadnikim (particularly on this forum…), and so forth, I’m only mentioned the inyan as it is at the source, and as it is celebrated by a very, very quiet portion of Chabad Chassidim and which I firmly hold to be the true and proper derech that Chabad is meant to be (the sources are on my side…).

    With all the above in mind, do we hope the Rebbe–being the figure that he is to us until this day–will still be goel all of Israel? Obviously that’s not quite a possibility right now, and part of the issue is that many Chabadniks can’t differentiate between their connection to their Rebbe’s derech that he set for them, and the reality of an actual living Mashiach. When thinking of the concept of “mashiach”, the typical Chabadnik immediately relates to the only version of mashiach known to them – that of Mashiach prati/personal mashiach, and they conflate that with the final coming of mashiach. Yes, this is a problem, but maybe this will shed a new light on a very, very old discussion.

    #2254350
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?
    I would prefer a straight Yes or No answers.“

    That’s like asking if a chazir chews its cud would you eat it

    If Lubavitch claims “the rebbe IS moshiach” there is no other option and if there is then their belief isn’t ironclad then your “hypothetical scenario” would be incongruent

    #2254351
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Menachem Shomrei,
    I’m not gonna write the history. I’m just gonna let you in on a (perhaps painful) secret.
    We are not so different or special than any other groups in many areas.
    I think everyone agrees we can look at 250 years of the US or 250 years of the Amish in America & see it’s history, society, customs, decisions & motivations but for some reason to many of us think we’re so “special” that Chasidism is above all these things. Well guess what? We’re not.

    #2254390
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    I grew up in the 70s and 80s and the zeknai lubabvich were simple g-d fearing people who would never never thought of breaking down walls in a shul because of some warped person decided to do so

    You seem to have no idea what happened last week. Or I completely misunderstood you.

    #2254391
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Kuvult, I’m not sure what you mean or how it answers my point.
    If you’re trying to say that an outsider to chassidus doesn’t see anything special about it? That’s pretty much what I responded to you previously about the outsider historian’s claim to frum Jews.

    #2254393
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To coffee addict
    Your argument is solid but I think there is validity to the question. When lostspark flatly says no that means that even if Moshiach is anointed and does everything that Rambam codified he qon’t care. Those who answered yes are reasonable to some degree and so there might be hope for them.

    #2254754
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group
    What’s interesting is that the Lubavichers don’t ask tbe counter question, “If the Rebbe is Moshiach will you(non Lubavichers) accept him? Obviously they know the answer. Torah Jews will accept, as Moshiach the person who meets Rambam’s criteria.

    #2254868
    sechel83
    Participant

    ”I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?
    i have a counter question: if someone comes and says he’s moshiach, how will you know to believe him or not?
    so this is a translation of the rambam perek 11 of hilchos melachim: If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.
    if you dont think the rebbe is moshiach? well who else is compelling all of isreal to walk in the way of the torah? anyone?
    so how will you know when moshiach actually comes????
    i dont even understand why you care about moshiach, what will be then? if you want penimius hatorah, learn it now! you want shibud malchiyus? for what?
    (i beleive moshiach is here, the giluy of penimius hatorah – chassidus, yes i still want moshiach bigashmius, main reason is shlaimus torah and mitzvos)

    As regards them, there will be no difference between the era of exile and the days of Mashiach, except for [the Jewish people’s release from] servitude to the nations.
    For they will not have tasted of the Tree of Life and will require the Mishnayot [which set out the laws] of prohibition and permission, impurity and purity.”
    Here ends the quotation from Raaya Mehemna.

    #2254874
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group

    Let’s examine sechel’s latest. He quotes Rambam, “If a king will arise from the House of David.” The Rebbe wasn’t and isn’t a king. “who will compel all of Israel to walk in the way of the Torah” The overwhelming majority of Jews have no connection to the Torah. I could go on, but you get the point.

    #2254904
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Menachem : “You seem to have no idea what happened last week. Or I completely misunderstood you”

    What happened last week was a bunch of bucherim who took it into there own hands and based on their own interpretation of what the Rebbeh may or may have not said decided to go ahead a destroy a shul, something that would have unthinkable with a true chosid of the old.

    @83, After you condoned what happened you lost any credibility.

    #2254950
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The concern has been expressed periodically over several hundred years that the normal (and some would say “obligatory”) custom of the Rebbe’s oldest son typically being chosen as the NEW rebbe when his father is niftar, does not always assure the best leadership of a chassidus. There may be reasons why another member of the immediate or extended family, or even someone from outside the family, would better extend the lineage, customs, hashkafah of the prior rebbe and perhaps more importantlly, provide the leadership and fundraising skills which are also of great importance in maintaining the Mosdos of a chassidus.

    #2254980
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “so how will you know when moshiach actually comes????“

    Our gedolim will tell us

    “i dont even understand why you care about moshiach, what will be then? if you want penimius hatorah, learn it now! you want shibud malchiyus? for what?
    (i beleive moshiach is here, the giluy of penimius hatorah – chassidus, yes i still want moshiach bigashmius, main reason is shlaimus torah and mitzvos)“

    Why can’t we have the same reason for moshiach for shleimus HaTorah?

    #2255145
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    What happened last week was a bunch of bucherim who took it into there own hands and based on their own interpretation of what the Rebbeh may or may have not said decided to go ahead a destroy a shul, something that would have unthinkable with a true chosid of the old.

    This is also unthinkable for a true chosid today, hence the outcry and outrage from all mashpiim, shluchim, rabbanim, balebatim and bochurim.

    #2255171
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To the group
    It’s worth noting that YY Jacobson made it a point to publicly attack NK has been silent with regard to the hooligans. No Lubavichers in positions of authority will ever speak out against inzirrer.

    #2255207
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Menachem Shmei,
    I’m not talking as an outsider about a secular approach to who wrote the Torah.
    I’m discussing the historical narrative of Chasidism based on how it was created & structured. Jews (inc. Chasidim) don’t live in a bubble. Chasidism didn’t start when it did by random chance. The world entered the “Modern Era” around 1,700. 2 factors were at play. The “Enlightenment” which questioned everything about the world including religion & “Emancipation” Jews lived in forced Kehillas were they were told how to live & how to practice. These 2 issues rocked the Jewish world to its core. The question was how to deal with this new world? Various methods developed. For instance “Reform” Judaism. In order to fit into this new & modern era we literally need to REFORM how Judaism is practiced.
    Another modern movement was “Chasidism” It’s not a “coincidence” when it started. It was a direct reaction to what was going on in this new world. (Almost all) Chasidic sects existed based on 2 principles. 1. With the pull of the new ideas it’s not enough to be Jewish, to survive you need to be “Super” Jewish. Everything is taken to the next level to keep Jews from getting near any modernization. This dealt with Enlightenment. 2. Emancipation, where Jews were no longer forced to live as part of a real Kehilla that had the power to fine you, jail you, tax you, & tell you how to practice Judaism. Chasidism is a direct response to Emancipation by (re)creating the Kehilla albeit with less power & on a volunteer basis (which actually makes members more loyal). This model worked by have an all powerful (in the sect) Rebbe who can navigate the waters of modernization as one unified group. Take a govt decree, how can an individual fight them? They can’t. But if a Rebbe tells his thousands of followers not to do it there’s nothing much the govt (before Stalin) could do. This almost militaristic passive resistance is what enabled Chasidism to flourishing & attract many new members. This ONLY works when there is a Rebbe controlling & guiding his followers.
    I understand your special relationship with a Rebbe which you feel is above the natural world & that’s fine. But at the same time we live in this world & I stand by the reality that “There is no such thing as a Chosid without a Rebbe”

    #2255208
    pekak
    Participant

    @qwerty613

    He also talks about the lofty neshamos of those who unfortunately go OTD but won’t condemn Footsteps.

    #2255238
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To kuvult

    You write beautfully and logically, but logic is lost edited. I will challenge you on one point. The Baal Shem predated the Enlightenment. His goal, in spreading Chassidus, was making the Tehilim Yid feel that his Avodas Hashem was also a valid expression of Yiddishkeit.

    #2255223
    Ysiegel
    Participant

    @qwerty613
    The official Chabad beis din in EY published/publicized a scathing letter harshly condemning the incident and calling on all Chabad figures of authority to take action against it etc.
    I’m very surprised that YWN did not make an effort to publicize this letter, but DID go out of their way to publicize the statement of a single individual who, while well known in Chabad, is not an internationally listened-to authority.

    Also, the Chabad beis din of Crown Heights published their own letter expressing their horror and outrage and the occurrence.

    I haven’t a doubt in my mind that would they be asked about, YY and other public figures would not hesitate to speak harshly against it, but they typically don’t go out of their way to speak negatively about another Jew. In the case you mention regarding NK, it is a world wide chilul Hashem that they are doing and for which reason I suppose he saw it necessary to speak out against it (I didn’t look too deeply into his comments on the matter, so I’m speaking out of pure supposition).

    Can you provide any other examples of where Lubavitch public figures have davka avoided speaking against the public wrongdoing of other Chabad chassidim?

    #2255261
    qwerty613
    Participant

    Absolutely. In December of 2008, Rabbi Shlomo Cunin declared that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus. He should have been removed from his position, but nothing, as far as I know was done.

    #2255287
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @ysiegel, yes Shmuli Boteach.
    PS when you have people like @83 who think what was done was 100% ok is all the proof that you need a living breathing rebbe.

    #2255375
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    PS when you have people like @83 who think what was done was 100% ok is all the proof that you need a living breathing rebbe.

    common, no one has yet answered my question: What about other chassidusen that also have dumb people who do really dumb things like violence and fighting that makes it to the news etc. DESPITE having a living breathing rebbe? The only response I’ve gotten is “How dare you point out problems in any sect which is not Chabad.”

    In the Rebbe’s opening address on Yud Shevat 73 years ago, he said that Chabad chassidus doesn’t believe in the concept of relying on the rebbe to do all the work for you. Every chossid has bechira chofshis to work on refining himself and behaving properly, or ch”v the opposite.

    Here’s a free translation of that sicha (right after saying the first maamar, formally accepting the nesius):

    Fellow Jews, listen now!

    Traditionally, Chabad has demanded that every individual do his own avodah alone, instead of relying on the Rebbeim. This is the difference66 between the Polish school of Chassidus and the Chabad school of Chassidus. The former school has a non-literal interpretation of the verse,67 וצדיק באמונתו יחי-ה — “And a tzaddik lives with his faith”: “Do not read yichyeh but [in the causative mood] yechayeh.” I.e., it is the tzaddik who gives life to all those who are bound to him. We of Chabad, however, all have to do our own work alone, with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the body and with all the 248 organs and 365 sinews of the soul.

    The Sages teach:68 הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים — “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven.” I am not (G‑d forbid) withdrawing from giving help to the degree that one’s capabilities allow. However, since “Everything is in the hands of Heaven except for the fear of Heaven,” then if there is no independent individual avodah, what can be gained from giving out manuscripts [of Chassidus], singing niggunim, and saying LeChaim?

    The Rebbe [Rayatz] used to warn chassidim against self-delusion. Every individual chassid himself has to transform the folly of the Other Side [i.e., of the forces of evil] and the seething disposition of his animal soul — to kedushah.69

    #2255384
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Menachem, I can tell you about Bobov, Belz and Klausenburg even after they had splits, all had zero tolerance for such behavior and people were asked to leave, I know of at least three cases in the 70s and 80s where the Rebbe pulled shiluchim from the post for doing things contrary to Chabad, you need to answer about your behavior to a live person,
    people like @83 think what happen was just fine yet you don’t, a living person would tell who is right.
    Lets me ask, would any of the chasidim of the Rashab ever even thought of acting this way?

    #2255445
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To Common

    You”re right that Chabad needs a living Rebbe, but that Rebbe must explain to the Chassidim that the deification of the Rebbe must end. The person who could do this is Rabbi Shaul Shimon Deutch but he was driven out of CH for saying the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach.

    #2255673
    sechel83
    Participant

    @qwerty613 you didnt answer my question
    ”I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?
    i have a counter question: if someone comes and says he’s moshiach, how will you know to believe him or not?
    (i mentioned that the rebbe started doing (and continues to do thru his shluchim) what the rambam says about moshiach will do, and you still dont think the rebbe was moshiach when he was alive, so give me someone who you will accept as moshiach?
    a melech has to be appionted by sanhedrin and a navi! learn milchos melachim.
    so explain to me the rambam please and how according to you moshiach will come.
    great rabbonim paskened that the rebbe is moshiach and a navi

    #2255675
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    This thread gave my an interesting question

    What should happen to a chassidus that doesn’t have a present rebbe does every chassid decide to join a different chassidus? What if their mehalech doesn’t match with others?

    Just wondering 🤔

    #2255682

    why dont we use a traditional definition of Chassidim from gemorah – people who are machmir on themselves, esp when dealing with other people. Most of them did not seem to have rebbes, sometimes even doing things against what their rebbe taught them, like the gentleman in Bava Kamma who struggled to walk in the middle of the road even when his teachers walked on other people’s properties.

    #2255722
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To sechel83
    You ask, “If someone comes and says he’s Moshiach how will you know to believe him or not? If someone says he’s Moshiach he belongs in a mental hospital. The person who will be accepted as Moshiach will have fulfilled all of Rambam’s criteria. Thanks for your excellent question. Sadly no Lubavicher answers my questions.

    #2255723
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Man the coffee room is what it must be like to live in David Bergers mind.

    QWERTY if you obsessed on something constructive as much as you do finding ways to disparage ChaBaD, I’m sure you wouldn’t just be a doctor.

    #2255752
    ARSo
    Participant

    Ysiegel, could you please give a source for a “mashiach prati”?

    I’ve never heard of it, and I wonder if there is a clear source for it. Also, I’m very surprised that no one else has asked for the source.

    #2255759
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel83 quoted the Rambam: “If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.”

    We have been through all this before on other threads, but just to refresh (and not to let sechel83 get away with it):
    1. The Lubavicher rebbe was not a king. Did any Lubavicher make the berocho “shecholak mikvodo liraiov” when seeing him?
    2. There is no proof that the Lubavicher rebbe is from the House of David. Sure, he claimed he was, and I think his father-in-law also claimed the same, but I don’t believe that counts. Furthermore, he is not ben achar ben, as the lineage goes through Rashi who had no sons. The standard rule for yichus is patrilenal descent. If not, then it’s likely that millions of Yidden are from the House of David.
    3. The Lubavicher rebbe did not COMPEL even one single Yid to walk in the ways of the Torah. He certainly encouraged, but he did not compel, and the Rambam chose his words carefully.
    4. The Rambam’s reference to wars of G-d refer to literal wars, just as Dovid Hamelech and other kings fought. This cannot be taken to mean encouraging people to keep Torah and mitzvos.

    Elsewhere sechel83 wrote: “a melech has to be appionted by sanhedrin and a navi! learn milchos melachim.
    so explain to me the rambam please and how according to you moshiach will come.”

    I certainly can’t explain how Mashiach will come according to the Rambam’s definition, and I don’t know who can. But that does not mean that we can disregard the Rambam and pretend the Lubavicher rebbe was a king etc. Don’t forget, this is the Rambam that 1000s of Lubavichers have been quoting as proof since before 3 Tammuz. Just say you don’t understand how it will come to pass. Don’t try to misinterpret it.

    #2255772
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ”I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?’

    Well, its a nuanced answer, and likely depends. If its another chabadnik, perhaps yes. If its someone who looks strangely Litvish, adds “V’yatzmach purkanei” to kaddish and asks for some more sugar with his fish, perhaps not

    #2255912
    sechel83
    Participant

    @qwerty. you did not answer the question. moshiach can not “compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God” without help from others. so who who help him? you wont, cuz you will say he belongs in the mental home. so please explain how moshiach will come. according to me, its in the rebbe the rebbe started with sending shluchim, and it is continuing (thats how the rebbe can still be moshiach after his pasing because his work continues its not over, the rambam writes if he does not succeed).
    so what is chassidus? chassidus came to wake up the deepest part of the neshama called yechida. one of the main aspects how that happens is thru being connected to the rebbe which is a higher neshama – neshama diatzilus. by chabad in addition the focus was and is on learning chassidus in chuchma bina and daas, to bring it bipnimius.
    so can you have chassidus without a rebbe alive? the alter rebbe in tanya igeres hadodesh 27 writes to the talmidim of R. Mendele of Vitebsk after his passing how the tzadik continues to give hashpaa to his talmidim after his passing and even more than in his lifetime, since hes not anymore limited in his body.
    he also explains there that a tzadik – tanyas definition – this holy neshama his life when hes alive is not life of flesh. (so if you ask me if the rebbe is still alive (assuming commen defintion of life) i would say “he was NEVER alive!)

    #2255956
    qwerty613
    Participant

    To sechel83

    You asked me a simple question, “If someone says he’s Moshiach how would I know to believe him or not?” I answered that no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution. ARSo just explained Rambam’s criteria for being Moshiach. If he accomplijshes all those things he ‘s Moshiach. It’s very simple edited

    #2256005
    lakewhut
    Participant

    This really isn’t too complicated. We know on a small scale how a shtiebel without a Rov or Rebbe often have hefkeirus all the more so by a sect of people who are convinced that theirs is the true Messiah.

    #2256016
    sechel83
    Participant

    arso and qwerty: you did not explain how moshiach can come. you basiclly explain its impossible for moshiach to come cuz he needsa to be a king appointed by a navi and sanhedrin. and force every jew to keep torah by himself with no help.
    so unlike you. i and alot of others actually learned the rambam in depth and many other sources about the coming of moshiach. the rebbe has over 500 pages printed explaining the last 2 peraking of hilchos melachim. so go learn and dont say moshiach cant come.
    no person has the right to say that he’s Moshiach and if he does he should be put in a mental institution: like the amoraim in sanhedrin, the gra and is written by his talkid in sefer קול התור. i think anyone who says they are a rosh yeshiva should be put in a mental insitution. or anyone who says he’s a rov, a doctor, anything!

    #2256022
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel83 :so if you ask me if the rebbe is still alive (assuming commen defintion of life) i would say “he was NEVER alive!”

    Since Chazal tell us that hayilodim lomus – those who are born are destined to die – and since we all “know” that the Lubavicher rebbe didn’t and won’t die, clearly he was never born. So I’d have to agree here with sechel83!

    #2256027
    CS
    Participant

    Arso, if you’re gonna say we went through it, please add that we’ve gone through your points before (1-4). At least I think it’s been rehashed multiple times. Maybe not though, so brief recap here:

    I haven’t learned the sugya in depth to the point that I could list by heart the references of how melech refers to Rabbanim with leadership personalities (as you admitted, the Rambam doesn’t make sense to explain as a literal king because then he’d be in Eretz Yisrael , anointed by Sanhedrin etc and the Rambam is speaking of the person who leads the process from golus)

    2. If Beis HaRav are able to trace their lineage, and you have no logical reason to dispute it (besides the obvious issue of saying they were lying), what’s your point? I also remember learning, that Moshiach can be descended from Malchus Beis David through his mother- and that was in relation to the Jews for Judaism course on fighting christinity if I’m not mistaken, and the reason why the rabbits bring this up with yoshkes lineage lhavdil, is because the christians don’t believe in Torah shebaal peh so we fight them with their weapons. So apparently that source is in Gemara- again calling all the learned menfolk on that

    3. In the language of Halacha, compel is also used to mean convince with words (we won’t need policemen when Moshiach comes, as Hashem promises to return our judges but not policemen, and you think Moshiach is the guy who has to physically compel people to listen to him? And with no policeman- cuz we’re in golus. Like you said you don’t understand your own understanding of the Rambam)

    I think that was all your points.

    Just a disclaimer, I have a reliable source to say that the Rebbes main aim was not to convince the world that he’s Moshiach, at that point, but just to let the c he chassidim know.

    I wrote a post here why I think The Rebbe thought that was important, but it wasn’t posted…

    #2256155
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel83: “you did not explain how moshiach can come. you basiclly explain its impossible for moshiach to come cuz he needsa to be a king appointed by a navi and sanhedrin…”

    I never said anything of the sort. I said that I don’t know how it will happen according to the Rambam, and that that is no reason to misinterpret the Rambam, as you and others have.

    Unlike you, it seems, I am able to say I don’t know.

    One thing I do know, and of that I’m 100% sure: the Lubavicher rebbe is not, was not, and will not be Mashiach. I have many reasons for saying this which I have writtten in other threads, but one reason that is good enough for now is that he does not have any of the criteria cited by the Rambam.

    #2256157
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: “as you admitted, the Rambam doesn’t make sense to explain as a literal king because then he’d be in Eretz Yisrael , anointed by Sanhedrin etc and the Rambam is speaking of the person who leads the process from golus”

    I never wrote anything like that! Once again, I wrote that the if we’re going to follow the Rambam, which 1000s of Lubavichers have quoted over the last 30 years, then I don’t know how it will work. But I never chas veShalom said the Rambam doesn’t make literal sense.

    “If Beis HaRav are able to trace their lineage, and you have no logical reason to dispute it (besides the obvious issue of saying they were lying)”

    I have lots of logical reasons to dispute it, but that is irrelevant. The Beis Din Hagodol in Lishkas Hagozis would investigate all kohanim to see if they were meyuchosim. I assume they will also investigate any claim to being Davidic. I don’t think anyone would agree with you that someone claiming to trace their lineage is good enough. That sounds ludicrous. Does anyone following this disagree with me?

    “In the language of Halacha, compel is also used to mean convince with words”

    Sources please.

    #2256216
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    CS,

    “Just a disclaimer, I have a reliable source to say that the Rebbes main aim was not to convince the world that he’s Moshiach, at that point, but just to let the c he chassidim know.”

    You actually have a source that the Rebbe, zt”l informed the chassidim that he was mashiach? If so, how well did that work out for them? Do you think he still is or are you going to duck the question?

    Please provide that source because from everything I heard, he couldn’t tolerate it when they said he was.

    #2256261
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    All the Chabad arguments on this thread just make me think of a story. It’s a famous one, many have probably heard it before.
    A man is walking through the woods, and he sees a tree with a target painted on it. Right in the center of the bullseye is an arrow. A few trees over, he sees the same thing again.
    As he walks, he sees more and more targets painted, each with an arrow exactly in the center.
    Eventually, he sees a man holding a bow and arrow. “Did you shoot all those other arrows,” he asks?
    “Yes, I did!” the archer replies.
    “How did you get so good, that each one is exactly in the bullseye?”
    The archer laughed. “I shoot the arrow at the tree. After it hits it, I paint the target around the arrow!”

    Chabad (wrongfully) decided that their Rebbe is Mashiach. Now they’re “painting the target”, trying to twist sources to show that they’re correct. They didn’t decide he was Mashiach because of the sources, they’re using them all after the fact to try and convince others that they’re right.

    We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!”

    People used to say that Lubavitch is the closest religion to Judaism. I don’t think that’s even true anymore.

    #2256271
    sechel83
    Participant

    i realized how dumb this conversation is.
    the following ideas i have a different understanding of then you.
    rebbe, chassidus, moshiach, alive, tzadik, (in one words its all yechida – go learn what that means)
    so whats the point of discussing anything related to these ideas.
    my understanding of all these things are based on what i learned in niglah and chassidus. i dont write anything without a source.
    just to point out chassidus is unlimited. there are over 300 seforim of sifrai chabad. there are seforim of other chassidus too. (b”h Hashem gave me a good head, and i learned alot)

    #2256294
    CS
    Participant

    Here’s what I’m referring to: I remember learning a piece from the reshimos (The Rebbes learning diary from before he became Rebbe) where The Rebbe asked why it’s necessary to await Moshiach’s coming every day, if Eliyahu HaNavi will precede him by three days. So logically, if Eliyahu hasn’t come yet, how can I expect Moshiach to come today?

    The answer is that there’s three stages in Moshiach’s revelation: (trying to remember the exact lashon by heart, because Rabbeinu Bachya says similar so I’ll include both versions of the wording):
    1. His first revelation/ to the ones that know him
    2. Fighting the wars of Hashem
    3. His revelation to everyone

    And Eliyahu haNavi can come before any point in those stages, so we need to be prepared for Moshiach, even without.

    So everyone can be happy now. For everyone (outside Lubavitch) it will be obvious when Moshiach is here, so you don’t have to keep fighting- you can just wait til stage 3.

    For other sources on the stages, see Rabbeinu bachya who explains that כימי צאתך מארץ מצרים אראנו נפלאות just like Moshe revealed himself, and then the slavery
    intensified just as Moshe Rabbeinu disappeared again, and then he came again and did the makkos, so too by the final geula this will happen and it will be a test of Emuna.

    Also see the Rashi on Daniel אשרי המחכה.

    There may have been other sources listed on the Reshima (or not as it wasn’t for publication) but I haven’t had the pleasure of seeing it in the original

    #2256353
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    I love how the YWNCR moderation system sometimes creates some very ironic posting.

    Notice how Sechel’s post comes right after DaMoshe’s:

    DaMoshe:“We see here what happens when you point out that they’re wrong – all you get is, “Learn Chassidus! You aren’t an expert, so you can’t have an opinion!””

    Sechel:“my understanding of all these things are based on what i learned in niglah and chassidus. i dont write anything without a source.
    just to point out chassidus is unlimited. there are over 300 seforim of sifrai chabad. there are seforim of other chassidus too. (b”h Hashem gave me a good head, and i learned alot)”

    DaMoshe, now you can probably say ברוך שכיוונתי! 😅

    P.S. I don’t necessarily agree with what DaMoshe actually said, just enjoying the irony.

    #2256361
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    CS,

    So you believe that the Rebbe, zt”l, who was niftar almost 30 years ago, is mashiach?

    #2256371
    CS
    Participant

    Gadolhadofi- yes there were times The Rebbe was against it but later, he allowed/ embraced it. This is because the development of Moshiach and geula comes in stages. For example, Sichos in English wanted to print a book “From exile to redemption” with short points on the topic from classic sources. At first The Rebbe didn’t allow it because he felt the world wouldn’t take it well (nobody spoke of it moshiach and geula as a topic in its own right.) later on, he encouraged the printing.

    The Rebbe never said I am Moshiach, accept me. But he did say in public talks which were printed in the Algemeiner journal btw, strong hints, such as, “Moshiach has already been anointed and is starting his mission,” “Beis Moshiach is gematria 770” “I don’t mind if you say that the Moshiach of the generation is the general Moshiach because it’s true,” stuff like that. If you look up Beis Rabbeinu shebibavel, you’ll see lots of this, and it was published.

    Because The Rebbe never made a campaign to spread this knowledge, there are Lubavitchers who after Gimmel Tammuz would just like to bury it under the cover. But that’s not accurate. Also, after the stroke, the Rebbe encouraged yechi with the little time we had with him. And the videos were broadcast.

    I think it’s important to tell the truth and also think that it’s important for Chassidim to know the facts, and if the Rebbe felt it was important to let us in on it, it’s important. I wrote a different post on why I think The Rebbe felt this was so.

    #2256378
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel83: “the following ideas i have a different understanding of then you.
    rebbe, chassidus, moshiach, alive, tzadik, (in one words its all yechida – go learn what that means)”

    As DaMoshe pointed out, the beliefs held by you and most (if not all) Lubavichers are targets that are painted after the arrows have been shot. In other words – in case the good head Hashem gave you isn’t quite as good as you think 🙂 – all these things, when attributed to your rebbe, are attributed because you want a certain outcome and you work backwards. Those of us who do not have the same agenda would not attribute them.

    #2256379
    ARSo
    Participant

    GadolHadofi: “You actually have a source that the Rebbe, zt”l informed the chassidim that he was mashiach?…

    Please provide that source because from everything I heard, he couldn’t tolerate it when they said he was.”

    There was indeed a stage when he would reprimand his followers for PUBLICLY referring to him as Mashiach, but that eventually changed. Look at the very clear “hints” in his sichos as to Mashiach’s identity.

    Also, I was told by a very reliable Lubavich source that when he was told by Rabbi JJ Hecht that the world needs to become aware of the identity of Mashiach, he replied that they see pictures of him on the Mitzvah tanks. (I would be interested to see if anyone here can find me the source for that discussion, as I have searched for it unsuccessfully.)

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