January 25, 2017 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #619090ChortkovParticipant
If you wish to call a Shmiras Halashon if a known molestor attends your shul with your nieces and nephews (Or any other relatives), go right ahead. I will protect my family first and if it means I did an averiah, I will take that averiah. Better I take such an averiah than anyone become a victim.
— Reposted from a CR Thread
I rarely read the CR these days, and I almost never post. However, when I saw this post, I felt obliged to write a ‘mecha’ah’. I feel this post is entirely wrong. This isn’t a personal attack; it is a expression of outrage and sorrow.
There is no place in Yiddishkeit for ignoring Halachah. There is never, ever a licence to contravene Halachah and Ratzon Hashem – not under any circumstances.
Of course, circumstances are integral to deciding the Halachah in any specific situation, and of course in the above case it would be muttar to report. But that is besides the point.
I take issue with a Frum Yid writing publicly that he would put family in front of Hashem. I take issue with CR publishing a post that someone would deliberately be ???? ??????? when he feels it necessary.
Would you also put your family protection in front of the Gimmel Chamurois – Avoida Zora, Gilui Arayos and Shefichas Damim?
NOTHING takes precedence to your Avoidas Hashem, and if Avoidas Hashem comes secondary in your life, you are not Frum.January 25, 2017 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1211429JosephParticipant
+1January 25, 2017 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1211430
If some “Rav’ requires that a molestor run free, I will get another Rav.
There are plenty of Rabbanim who hold that a molestor must be removed from the community
And I take issue with jews who refuse to admit that Molestation is an issue in our community and those who do such things must be weeded out.January 25, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1211431
When I read that post, this is what I heard:
“Listen if there is someone with a known history and record of molesting children in the presence of my children and family members, then I am not going to go let my children and their cousins go frolic alone or in a group with this person.
I may have to tell my children and their cousins to leave this person alone, but won’t say anything that isn’t necessary.
If you think that this person is now fine to hang around children because he did teshuva, then that is your prerogative. However, part of teshuva is also making fences and guarding oneself from falling into situations.
While other posters think that it is lashon hara to ask my children not to go play with or around that grown person, since this person already did teshuva, then I guess they can judge me accordingly because I know that Hashem gave me the responsibility to guard my children and protect them, and part of that is keeping them safe from risky encounters.”
PosterJanuary 25, 2017 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1211432
ZD – you are missing Yekke’s point. You are right – any real Rav will not allow people to be molested, and in the above example will tell you that you should say something.
But that is not what you had written. You had written that even if the halacha were that it is assur to say anything, you would break the halacha.January 25, 2017 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1211433👑RebYidd23Participant
Wait, did I read this wrong or is OP seriously condemning people for doing their best to protect their children from molesters?January 25, 2017 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1211434
LB – uh… it’s nice that you want to be “dan l’kaf zchus” but that’s not what he wrote. Being dan l’kaf zchus does not mean that one is supposed to think someone didn’t write what they wrote.January 25, 2017 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1211435baisyaakovliberalParticipant
It’s not an aveirah to warn people about a molester – IT’S A MITZVAH!!!!!January 25, 2017 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1211436
You read it wrong.January 25, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1211437
baisyaakovliberal – that’s not the point. The point was that someone said that even if it were an aveirah, he would do it anyhow.January 25, 2017 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1211438
It is unfortunate that recently I caught someone behaving inapropirately with some of the teenage girls at shul (Though not actual molesting, but defiantly against halacha and not behavior appropriate for a frum man to do with a teenage girl who is not his daughter in Shul) and it seems it wasnt the first time he has behaved inappropirately in shul
I have zero tolerance for such mattersJanuary 25, 2017 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1211439
Perhaps he didn’t mean it the way it came out, and was merely worded incorrectly.January 25, 2017 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1211440
DY, OP is referring to a differnt post that was made in the last week or 2 I was answering something LU was referring to,January 25, 2017 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1211441
DY – I don’t think so. You may be partially right but not completely. I am saying this based on what I remember of the context of that post. I think it was in response to my writing that one must ask a sheilah before posting LH online about people who reportedly did some kind of aveirah.
There are many halachos involved, and it is not muttar to publicly shmear everyone whom you think may have done an aveirah.
Aside from the context, the bigger problem is what he wrote: he clearly wrote that he thinks that even if it’s an aveirah, he thinks one should do it.
Where you are right is that probably where he was coming from was: it is obvious to him that in the specific scenario he described there is no sheilah since it is obviously permissible to say something!! And if the Rav asked says it’s not, either he misunderstood the question or he is mistaken, and of course you should ask someone else. And it’s possible that it’s not necessary to ask in the first place.
But that is not because there is anything more important than halacha. It is because that is the halacha in that particular case!!!
But l’maaseh, that is not how he phrased it. Perhaps, he didn’t mean it that way, but then he should clarify because the way it’s phrased is problematic.
Also, in the context, it was problematic in any case. In this example, it may be obvious that it’s muttar, but there are many, many cases where it is not, and that is why a sheilah must be asked. Especially since the context was about shmearing people online not about a private conversation with individuals, which is completely different.January 25, 2017 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1211442
Yes, I know. I’m saying perhaps the same way back then you worded your complaint incorrectly because you were upset, you did the same now again.
BTW, how is your back?January 25, 2017 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1211443
Thanks for asking. My walk has changed since the accidentJanuary 25, 2017 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1211444
maybe this will explain better
If I told you there was a molestor (Assuming I had proof) around and I am going to tell everyone to keep their kids away from him , and you said to me Its averiah of LH to do so. I would say I dont care about this averiah, people need to know this person is a Rasha and a threat and keep your kids away from him. And if you want to say Such and Such a Rav, says its an Averiah to tell people, I would tell you, that rav is wrong and you need to get another Rabbi.January 25, 2017 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1211445
Is Joseph yekke2?January 25, 2017 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1211446
What’s wrong with your back?January 25, 2017 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1211447
I think you are still saying it wrong. Don’t say, “I don’t care about this aveirah”, say, “You’re wrong, it’s not an aveirah, it’s a mitzvah”.
You still need to ask a shailah how to tell people.January 25, 2017 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1211448
ZD – you are saying two completely different things in the same breath.
First you are saying:
“I would say I dont care about this averiah”
Then you are saying:
“And if you want to say Such and Such a Rav, says its an Averiah to tell people, I would tell you, that rav is wrong and you need to get another Rabbi.”
First you are saying that it’s an aveirah but you don’t care. Then you are saying that it can’t be an aveirah and the Rav you asked must have been mistaken, so you will ask someone else.
Those are two completely different things. The first thing is a serious problem. The second thing is fine (or it can be depending on several factors). I have done the second thing myself at least twice in my life, albeit only in certain specific circumstances.
Do you see the difference?January 25, 2017 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1211449
LU, ZD got hurt, and started that thread. It could have been something else, though, maybe a leg or hip; I don’t know, and ZD may not want to say for privacy reasons.January 25, 2017 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1211450
LU, you can read the shoveling snow thread that DY posted.January 25, 2017 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1211451
DY: “I think you are still saying it wrong. Don’t say, “I don’t care about this aveirah”, say, “You’re wrong, it’s not an aveirah, it’s a mitzvah”.
DY: “You still need to ask a shailah how to tell people.”
Right. Both of those things were my point. Also, you have to make sure that you know for sure the person is a molester. Did you see it yourself or are you relying on hearsay? Even if you didn’t see it yourself, you would probably be allowed to say something, but it depends how reliable the source is. And how you have to phrase it might be different in that case.January 25, 2017 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1211452
“LU, ZD got hurt, and started that thread. It could have been something else, though, maybe a leg or hip; I don’t know, and ZD may not want to say for privacy reasons.”
I missed that thread. Refuah Shelaimah!January 25, 2017 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1211453
I just noticed that you wrote “assuming I had proof”. I don’t think that was there when you first gave the example. That was one of the reasons I thought a sheilah was necessary.January 26, 2017 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1211454DaMosheParticipant
Anyone who claims that telling people to beware a known molester is Lashon Harah is a chossid shoteh.January 26, 2017 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1211455
I do not belive abuse and molestors run rampant in our communities, I dont think they are any more or any less than anywhere else. However I do think there has been a cover up and that has made it seem worse than it really is.
Unfornatly I do think many seem to think its better to protect the community from a “bad rep” than admit there is a problem.
The OP in this post is a perfect example of this thinking. That someone would really belive its a bigger chilul hashem to turn over a molestor than allow one to infest our community
And unfortunatly this thinking does spread to our leadership. And IMO if there are leaders who think this way, they must be replaces with leaders who want it goneJanuary 26, 2017 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1211456
ZD – the OP said nothing of the sort!!!! You are totally misconstruing his words!!! There is nothing whatsoever in anything he said or that anyone else here said that implies in any way that one should not protect the community from molestors.
Some of the posters here (mainly DY and LB and to a lesser extent, myself) have been trying very hard to be dan l’kaf zchus that you didn’t mean what you said, but so far you have given us no reason to believe that.
How can you misconstrue the OP’s words like that? He didn’t say it’s a chilul Hashem to not turn over a molester!!! His point had nothing to do with molesters and he certainly never said that one should not turn them over!
What he said is that its a chilul Hashem for the CR to post your post saying that people shouldn’t follow halacha! DY bent over backwards to try to say that maybe you didn’t really mean that and to give you an opportunity to take it back. I did as well.
You are confusing two issues here: 1. Should one follow halacha even when he doesn’t agree with it or understand it?
2. Do you think it’s possible that halacha would say not to protect people from molesters?
I think that most of us who are posting here think that the answer to #1 is clearly yes and the answer to #2 is clearly no.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you think the answer to #1 is no and the answer to #2 is yes. If that is what you mean, then that is a chilul Hashem (both answers).
Is that what you really think or were you not expressing yourself clearly, as DY and LB and I would like to believe?
I just want to make something clear: saying that one should follow halacha does not in way, shape, or form mean that one should not protect oneself from molesters. There is no contradiction between following halacha and protecting oneself from molesters. If someone thinks there is (as was implied from your words, although perhaps that is not what you mean), that is a chilul Hashem!January 26, 2017 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1211457FuturePOTUSParticipant
There was a known molester that moved into our community, and the psak was that it was 100% permitted to tell people, not only that, but it was spread with signs and emails to the whole community. The end scenario was that someone bought his house at a premium and told him to get out, which he did.January 26, 2017 2:03 am at 2:03 am #1211458
One other point I want to make clear is that the only reason I said anything about asking a sheilah in the first place was not because I had a “hava amina” that the halacha might be that you don’t have to protect people from molesters.
The reason for asking a sheilah was to determine whether or not doing x in situation y is really protecting people from molesters.
Many times people make incorrect assumptions about these things. You gave an example that seems to be pretty clear-cut and is less likely to need a sheilah. But not every case is so clear-cut. And even in the case you gave, the question is still – “what is the best thing to say to who?”
I actually do not understand why you think that telling your relatives about it is the right approach. Why wouldn’t you tell the Rav of the shul and/or the Rav of the community and/or the police so that they can get him out of the shul and community and preferably in jail??!!
When my friend saw someone in her shul acting inappropriately with a kid, she told someone official. I forgot who she told – maybe it was the Rav of the Shul or someone else official – it’s a completely Frum city, so all the official people are Frum. They blacklisted him from the Shul and basically kicked him out of town, and his wife divorced him (my friend felt bad about that. I don’t know why).
That is how you handle things like that, and that is much more effective than telling an individual who goes to the shul and can’t do anything about it or than posting rumors online.January 26, 2017 2:41 am at 2:41 am #1211459
ZD +1January 26, 2017 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1211460catch yourselfParticipant
Lilmod Ulilameid has done a very good job of making the point.
Nobody, including the OP, thinks it would be LH in the particular case described. The issue was not with informing concerned individuals of a known molester. ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? would mandate such information be shared as necessary.
The problem was with the sentiment that “I know better than the Halacha.” Sorry, you don’t. There will be many situations in which the Halacha dictates you act in a way that is inconsistent with your own thinking and feelings. You do not get to choose when to follow Halacha.
It happens to be that questions of LH are among the most common of such situations. These Halachos must be studied and mastered, otherwise you are guaranteed to violate them. As a reminder, Chazal equate LH with ? ??????. This is serious business.
I personally know someone whose life was ruined as a result of an unsubstantiated claim of molestation which was publicized as fact by people who had an axe to grind, and little care for honesty. Presumption of innocence notwithstanding, my friend’s career was over and his life in shambles. The judge dismissed the case; the public dismissed the truth.
You need to know the facts before you go believing things about people. I agree that guilty parties should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the Halacha. We should not, we dare not, cover up for the molester. However, we should know better than to believe every allegation, and we should know better than to destroy another person who has done nothing wrong.January 26, 2017 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1211461
DaMoshe – Why did you feel a need to make that statement? Why would you even think that there might be anyone in the world who would say that?!!!January 26, 2017 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1211462
FuturePotus – why is that a chiddush?January 26, 2017 5:05 am at 5:05 am #1211463
LB – why are you writing +1 to someone for accusing someone of something he didn’t do?January 26, 2017 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1211464
ZD: “The OP in this post is a perfect example of this thinking. That someone would really belive its a bigger chilul hashem to turn over a molestor than allow one to infest our community”
What the op said is that one has to keep halacha.
Why are you equating keeping halacha with not turning over molesters??!!
Do you seriously believe that the Torah says not to turn over molesters?January 26, 2017 5:27 am at 5:27 am #1211465
Catch Yourself +1 million!!! I wrote several responses which have not yet been approved. Thanks for writing a response that expressed the point clearly yet was approved right away!January 26, 2017 5:48 am at 5:48 am #1211466
Apparently, a few posters missed the point of the thread. It’s not about child molesters, it’s about putting halachah ahead of our own desires.January 26, 2017 5:56 am at 5:56 am #1211467
Catch Yourself: “Lilmod Ulilameid has done a very good job of making the point.”
For the sake of accuracy and yashrus, I just want to point out that this line was not said in reference to my 2 posts that immediately preceded it, as they had not been moderated yet at the time this was posted, so Catch Yourself had not yet read them.January 26, 2017 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1211468
Why are you equating keeping halacha with not turning over molesters??!!
Do you seriously believe that the Torah says not to turn over molesters?
There are some who claim its moser to turn over a molester to the authorities
Unfortuantly there are many cases where someone who has behaved inappropriately was either hushed up or moved elsewhere where he behavior was not knownJanuary 26, 2017 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1211469lesschumrasParticipant
LU, child molestation is relevant to this conversation. Molestation in the frum community was denied for decades and the molesters were protected by rabbanim. If you go back in time in the Coffee Room, you’ll see that not only was molestation denied, they blamed the child. Rabbis insist that , contrary to the law, that they be consulted before the police. How many cases have you seen ( including in the CR )where more sympathy is expressed for the shidduch prospects of the molesters family than he victim before you say , if halacha is protecting the molester, forget halachaJanuary 26, 2017 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1211470TheGoqParticipant
At my job as cashier at a supermarket i have on file a doctors note that i have to have water at my register for my condition, recently i was informed that even if you have a doctors note water is not allowed by your register or anywhere near the front end, I still keep my water bottle nearby because stupid and harmful rules deserve to be broken.January 26, 2017 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1211471
if halacha is protecting the molester, forget halacha
In other words, if I don’t like Hashem’s will, forget Hashem will.
Chas v’shalom.January 26, 2017 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #1211472
There are some who claim its moser to turn over a molester to the authorities
So your argument is not with halachah, it is with those who misrepresent halachah.
Don’t you see the difference?January 26, 2017 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1211473
Do you really think its Hashem will that we allow a person who is a danger to soceity should be allowed to roam free because some wrong headed people think it will cause people to look down upon a community?January 26, 2017 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1211474benignumanParticipant
I suspect that the issue here is that some people abuse the concept of halacha for evil purposes. The observers see something that they know is evil but hear the evil-doers or their supporters claiming halacha as a shield for their evil activities. Since the Observers are not learned enough on their own do demonstrate why the halachic claims are incorrect and pernicious, they instead lash out and say: “if that is what halacha says, I don’t care.”
There are two solutions to this problem that I see: 1. Don’t presume that everything said by talmud chochom is halacha. No matter how learned someone is, they can sin, make mistakes, and be corrupted. 2. Learn! Become a talmud chochom in your own right, so that you don’t need to rely on the opinions of others.January 26, 2017 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1211475👑RebYidd23Participant
I believe what the person was trying to say is that hypothetically if there were some kind of Divine punishment for doing the right thing in this case it would still be right to do the right thing. Or something like that.January 26, 2017 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1211476gavra_at_workParticipant
benignuman – Agree and Like. I’ll add that the Torah says so as well:
???? ????????? ???????? ?????? ????????, ????????? ???????? ?????????January 26, 2017 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1211477catch yourselfParticipant
The Goq: “…stupid and harmful rules deserve to be broken”
I hope I misunderstood you. It seems like you meant to say that sometimes Halacha can be stupid and harmful.
Like Benignuman said, some people can be stupid and harmful. Some can even be devious and harmful. Halacha, however, is Eitz Chaim and Darchei Noam.
It is the unfortunate truth that our community has mishandled the issue of abuse in the past, and we need to do a better job of protecting our children. However, this fact does not give license to overcompensate by wrongfully assuming that all allegations are true.
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