SHOVEL YOUR SNOW.. Shabbos or NOT!!!

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  • #594878

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This has been a bad winter here in NY.

    About a month ago I was walking to shul on Shabbos and I fell on the UNSHOVELED ice and snow.

    While I did not break any bones, I did pull a muscle and was immobile for 5 days, Couldnt get up from a chair, coulndt sleep in bed. Had to stay home from work.

    Even now I walk with a limp, cant bend over , can barely tie my shoelaces

    ALL BECAUSE SOME FRUM JEW DID NOT SHOVEL HIS WALK ON SHABBOS

    (I know who the owner of the property is)

    So Please YOUR SHABBOS does not overule my shabbos or my right to even walk (I cant walk that far now)

    And I am lucky, I didnt break any bones ,need surgery or lose money from staying home from work

    And there are alot of frum jews who seem not want to shovel snow

    #738046

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why don’t you just drive?

    #738047

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So Please YOUR SHABBOS does not overule my shabbos or my right to even walk (I cant walk that far now)

    I know you’re upset, and I do feel terribly bad for you, but you should really ask a posek if what you said is correct.

    #738048

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It was Shabbos when I fell

    and I couldnt get in the car for 5 days. I couldnt walk let alone go down stairs (Alot harder than you think)

    #738049

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    From my google search, it seems shoveling snow on shabbos is controversial when there is an eruv, and obviously assur when there is no eruv.

    Do you live in Brooklyn?

    #738050

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It shouldnt even be controversial

    The MAIN issue is SAKANA, and the SAKANA is very real. How many people do you know who fell this winter on snow and ice?

    Alot of people did. Most times you fall its no biggie and usually for me it isnt either, but this time it WAS a biggie.

    And I am not an older person, An older person who falls on the snow and ice can really hurt themselves.

    I do not live in Brooklyn and I live in a neighborhood with an Eruv, but that is irrelevant.

    You are not shoveling for yourself, You are shoveling to prevent Sakana

    #738051

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, maybe the person did not know how dangerous it was. You apparently misjudged the danger also, or you would not have walked across it.

    I’m sorry you got hurt.

    #738052

    always here
    Participant

    zahavasdad~ a year ago my husband slipped & fell on the ice going to the mikvah. he wrentched something around his shoulder area & ended up with a purple, black & blue mark across his whole back, mamash! it faded, but he’s just barely gotten over the pain in his shoulder area WHEN–

    the other day he had to pick up our grandsons from yeshiva, across the street from our house. as we in B’klyn all know, there are still piles of snow & there was treacherous ice on our streets. there was a path cleared for pedestrians right @ the corner… but a truly selfish, inconsiderate mother, who was picking up her son, parked right @ that corner, right in the only area that didn’t have ice, & my husband slipped! he caught himself, but re-wrentched his body :/

    #738053

    i am here
    Member

    Walk in the street. Or extremely slow especially when walking on snow or ice. Snow is Muktza on shabbos unless there is no place to walk except on it.(not sure exactly, thats what i have heard)

    #738054

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The MAIN issue is SAKANA, and the SAKANA is very real. How many people do you know who fell this winter on snow and ice?

    If you feel that it is a sakana, then you should’t walk in an area which was not shoveled; you should turn around and go back home.

    Refuah Sheleimah.

    #738055

    real-brisker
    Member

    MODS – How do you allow such posts thru?

    #738056

    always here
    Participant

    zahavasdad~ refuah sheleima b’karov!

    we live in Midwood/Flatbush, & don’t hold by the eruv; no one in our neighborhood, except the goyishe neighbors, shovel on Shabbos.

    #738057

    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    The bottom line is that you have to ask a posaik whether shovelling (within an eiruv) is allowed.

    He MAY tell you that if you truly felt it was a sakana to walk on the unshoveled area, you should have not gone to shul.

    If you didn’t feel it was a sakana until AFTER you fell, maybe the homeowner didn’t feel it was a sakana either, and can’t be blamed any more than you for the choice you made to walk there.

    #738058

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I do not want to give out certain facts, but Walking around the unshoveled snow was not possible. It was the only way to get where I was going.

    #738059

    seeallsides
    Participant

    Please don’t pasken for the world. Please ask a shaalah. You are really going out on a limb (no pun intended) when you say that people should shovel on Shabbos. Risky thing to do. Very sorry for your injury

    #738060

    real-brisker
    Member

    Who said you had to go where you were going was more important than chilul shabbos.

    #738061

    i am here
    Member

    REFUAH SHELAMA ask your rav about urself shoveling on shabbos

    #738062

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @real-brisker

    For the first time I agree with you. How do they allow such posts through?

    At best-snow is muktza,

    At worst- It’s chillul Shabbos midaroisa

    Either way I am reminded of a shailo that I heard of a woman who needed medicine on her and it was pikuach nefesh if she didn’t and she wanted to go to shul with the medicine in here shoe.

    The Rav said well don’t go to shul

    #738063

    Feif Un
    Participant

    My grandfather DIED from slipping on ice on Shabbos, so it’s definitely pikuach nefesh.

    When I was younger, I remember someone asking the Rav of our shul if he can salt his porch, steps, and sidewalk on Shabbos (there was no eruv). The Rav said not only is it allowed, it’s REQUIRED!

    #738064

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You obviously got there; you could have turned around and gone back to where you came from. You seem to be suggesting that the homeowner should have been mechallel Shabbos so that you could get to where you wanted to go.

    #738065

    deiyezooger
    Member

    snow is muktza. .period. better luck next time.

    #738066

    YW Moderator-105
    Participant

    I remember R’ Shlomo Zalman Braun the Shiurim Mezuyanim Behalocho having his son go out Shabbos morning to shovel the snow inside the gates in from of his shul.

    #738067

    real-brisker
    Member

    The only heter I heard of was for hatzolah members to shovel (even prior to a call) to go to a emergency. Now that Pikuach Nefesh

    #738068

    YW Moderator-105
    Participant

    I also think that people should learn some halochos before announcing that something is assur. Snow is most definitely not muktza.

    #738069

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @ AinOhdMilvado , You are correct on the assumption that I did not see the Sakana until AFTER I fell.

    Ice and Snow is a Slippperly Slope (No pun intended) and you might not realize how slippery it is until its too late

    Like everyone else I had been treating the snow with a grain of salt especially since Ive never fallen like that before

    @ iyhbyu In other words people should stay home because of the ice and snow.

    the only Chilul Hashem is that the walk was not shoveled and someone fell

    BTW I WAS taken by Hatzolah

    #738070

    John Doe
    Member

    105 – Which son? Shmeel Alter???

    Killa!!!!!!

    #738071

    real-brisker
    Member

    Yes snow is muktza if it fell on shabbos

    #738072

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When I was younger, I remember someone asking the Rav of our shul if he can salt his porch, steps, and sidewalk on Shabbos (there was no eruv). The Rav said not only is it allowed, it’s REQUIRED!

    I don’t believe that story. You are not allowed to do something dangerous (walk on ice) in order to claim pikuach nefesh. If it is pikuach nefesh, you should not go outside.

    Mod 105: Rabbi Bodner’s muktza book says that Rav Moshe held snow is muktza. The shemiras shabbos quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman that it is not muktza.

    I didn’t look them up, I saw it on some blog.

    #738073

    oomis
    Participant

    We asked a shailah about salting the steps and walkway, and were told we absolutely MUST do it. I did not ask about shoveling, because it would not have occurred to me that it would be permissible.

    #738075

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I remember R’ Shlomo Zalman Braun the Shiurim Mezuyanim Behalocho having his son go out Shabbos morning to shovel the snow inside the gates in from of his shul.

    A few years ago, R’ Shlomo Miller wrote (in a short-lived Yated halacha column) that minimal shoveling is mutar; I think he said the only issur is uvdin d’chol. There was a controversy in a certain city a number of years ago when a rov moved in and was seen shoveling on Shabbos; another rov took him to task for it (and I believe ultimately retracted).

    However, Zahavasdad made the statements that YOUR SHABBOS does not overule my shabbos or my right to even walkand that The MAIN issue is SAKANA, and the SAKANA is very real., implying that it would be mutar even if chillul Shabbos was invoved, e.g. a r’shus harabim.

    #738076

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We asked a shailah about salting the steps and walkway, and were told we absolutely MUST do it. I did not ask about shoveling, because it would not have occurred to me that it would be permissible.

    Where you live, there is a kosher eiruv.

    #738077

    John Doe
    Member

    Maybe zahava’s rabbi says it’s mutter.

    Maybe she davens by Rabbi Avi Weiss SHLUUUUUUTA and his mahaRAT.

    Anything flies there

    #738078

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @Daas Yochid Perhaps I worded incorrectly as frankly I am upset. I am sure if you fell and severly hurt yourself due to others neglect, you would not be so happy either.

    But which is a worse Chilul Shabbos, Someone shoveling snow OR someone Falling and getting real hurt that Hatzolah must come or even worse EMS must come and take them to the ER.

    Someone said their grandfather passed away from slipping on the snow and ice, Is that not Chilul Hashem?

    #738079

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    @ AinOhdMilvado , You are correct on the assumption that I did not see the Sakana until AFTER I fell.

    Neither did the homeowner; why is he any more to blame than you?

    #738080

    Ferd
    Participant

    @zahavasdad

    You realize that your statement is incredibly wrong.

    We all understand that you are upset and all, but there is a shulchan aruch which we follow. We don’t just decide, and not to mention DEMAND of everyone reading YWN that the must shovel on Shabbos.

    Pretty outrageous thing to say.

    Have you asked a posek?

    Better yet, call a posek, and get back to us. Make sure to post his name as well.

    Were all waiting with baited breath.

    #738081

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Have you asked a posek?

    Better yet, call a posek, and get back to us. Make sure to post his name as well.

    Even better, call the posek of every member of the CR.

    #738082

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @YW mod 105-

    I actually was just looking up this issue this past shabbos.

    If the snow fell on shabbos, It is muktzah according to most poskim because of nolad.

    If before shabbos 1) you should’ve shoveled before shabbos

    2) There is still a problem of muktza, R’ Bodner’s muktza book brings down R’ Moshe who says that it is muktza no matter what.

    Addtionally there is a problem of boneh and obviously carrying if there is no eruv

    @zahavasdad-

    There are always going to be some people who don’t shovel. Frum or not. So if the snow is so bad for you that it is a sakana, don’t go to shul!

    #738083

    blinky
    Participant

    You can’t blame ppl for not shoveling on shabbos, im not a posek but i imagine that not everyone will permit it. (im sure mine doesn’t)

    But whatever the case, ppl should definitely take precautions and shovel PRIOR to shabbos and salt.

    If it snows ON shabbos usually that day its not slippery. Its at least the day after- which is SUNDAY, which hopefully ppl will shovel. But if you are talking about old snow that should be taken care of before.

    #738084

    Ferd
    Participant

    For the record, it has never been nogeia this winter in NYC. If there was snow, it was because some jerk didn’t shovel during the week. I just checked when every storm was.

    Here is the law:

    New York snow removal laws state that snow must be removed within 4 hours after the snowfall stops. If the snow stops between the hours of 9:00 pm and 7:00 am you have until the morning to start removing the snow from the sidewalk.

    #738085

    Professional
    Member

    forget about shabbos, how about mid week?

    and in my area, city must start clearning parking spots taken by snow, please call adn email Greenfields office. if he gets 1000s of emails, he will press city. Has been over amonth, and we have no parking spots!

    Greenfield HAS been pressing the city. have you seen the YWN homepage today? http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=83426

    #738086

    Ferd
    Participant

    @daas yochid.

    SHE made the claim, so SHE should ask her posek. Noone else made a ridicules claim here besides her by demanding – as if its halacha limoshe misinai – that we all must shovel snow on shabbos!

    #738087

    laguy
    Member

    Maybe I’m just naive, but if there is such a huge sakanah, why is anyone out walking in it? Sakana doesn’t happen retroactively! I don’t remember learning anywhere that I am suppose to take my life in my hands to go to shul on shabbos.

    #738088

    always here
    Participant

    Ferd~ “SHE made the claim, so SHE should ask her posek”.

    I know I’ve been having a problem with screen names & gender but ZAHAVA’S DAD?!?!? lol

    #738089

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    @ Ferd.

    SHE made the claim, so SHE should ask her posek. Noone else made a ridicules claim here besides her by demanding – as if its halacha limoshe misinai – that we all must shovel snow on shabbos!

    First of all, I think it’s a he. Second of all, the point I’m making is that even if his posek says mutar to shovel, if mine doesn’t, I’m not shoveling.

    And BTW, you made a great point about when the snow fell.

    #738090

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    iyhbyu: “boneh” ????? please clarify (A poster brought down that R’Shlomo Zalman did not consider snow, fallen before shabbos, muktzah) Also, carrying? how-if less that ‘arbah amos”

    #738091

    iyhbyu
    Member

    @YW mod 105-

    Maybe some people should learn some halachos before announcing something is definitely not muktza.

    #738092

    real-brisker
    Member

    John Doe – Which post of mine is not like halacha? I like the name ferd thanks!

    #738093

    rt
    Participant

    my Rav gave a shiur to our Kehillah; in an eruv it is muttar to shovel snow; each person should consult with their own Rav on this and ANY halachic question! I can’t believe people are seeking a psak halacha in a chatroom

    #738094

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In the Midbar, the Mann did not fall on Shabbos. Since, for many, it fell right near people’s door, what would be the problem? Some say that since it came to us in that spot, it is considered Makom Gedulo and it is therefore an Issur De’oraisa of Tolash to pick it up.

    I must also mention that blinky’s point is very true. Also, salt can be put down before Shabbos, too.

    #738095

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I find some of these responses incredible.

    It seems people are more makbid on Mutzkah than Sakanah. One should be Makbid on Sakanah and make sure it doesnt happen.

    Everyone here who lives in NYC knows that it was slipperly this winter. No matter how careful you are, Falls are still possible. Nobody wants to fall.

    What do you think, I was running in the ice and snow. Of course I was careful. You have to be careful in this weather.

    If someone fell on YOUR sidewalk because you didnt shovel. Would you feel bad?

    If you or your MOTHER fell because someone didnt shovel, how would you feel. Would you feel it was OK because of Mutzkah.

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