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After reading threads like ‘Skirts and Judaism’ ‘Texting on Shabbos’ ‘Do you watch movies’ etc. I was compelled to open this thread.
It doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that “You should not watch any movies” or “Women’s dresses should fall 4 inches below their knee”. ?????? ??? ??? ??
Use your sensitivty. Tznius isn’t about laws and rules, it’s simply common sense. Why would anyone think it’s ok to stare at a goyish prutza? Why would anyone even WANT to look at one? No, it doesn’t say explicitely in the Torah. Why do we discuss texting on shabbos? Who cares if there’s some obscure heter? If anyone’s OTD and for some reason they HAVE to text and it’ll keep them from going farther away…Well, there are always rabbonim who deal with this. Ask a sheila privately.
By exposing ourselves to “heterim” like texting on Shabbos etc. and dissect the ins and outs (especially on a website which is open to the public – including kids and teens) although we don’t go and text, it deadens the senses to the sanctity of Shabbos.
We treat Issurim Deoraisa like theoretical Gemara. When somebody asked Rabbi Shamshon Rapheal Hirsh “Where does this __________(fill in the blank)say in Shulchan Aruch?” He answered, “Where in Shulchan Aruch does it say you’re not allow to convert to Christianity?”
Prsident Bush had refused to put partial birth abortion on the table for discussion. When you discuss something, you give it legitimacy.
agreed. just once someone attemps such a heter it is important that the pircha is btzido.
Modern Orthodox generally look for clear sources in halacha for all their religious practices. If you tell them it’s just a feeling, then they will say it’s just a Chasidish thing, since Chasidim do generally just follow their hergesh w/o bringing any clear halachic sources for all their chumros.
Well said !
For some people you may be right, for others, I think, you are dead wrong.
Some people like to just be told what they need to do, when and how they need to do it. They are happy to comply, and do not want (or are mentally unable) to be bothered with the details of how the “Daas Torah” determined what should and should not be done according to the halacha. For these kinds of people, too much information surely deadens the senses and ruins the uplifting feeling they get from performing the ratzon Hashem.
Others NEED to understand the mechanics of how the halacha works. This doesn’t mean that if they don’t understand the logic of it they don’t do it; it simply means that whereas some people crave the spiritual high of Torah observance, they need the intellectual high of understanding WHY the halacha demands X and not Y. For these people, the avodah is only enhanced by knowing the WHY of the halacha (not so much the reason God commanded certain things but the logic of why a particular psak says X and not Y).
Merely discussing something does not give it legitimacy – and even if it does, perhaps that is a necessary risk in order to find the TRUTH. If we can’t discuss various halachic options in a reasonable way in the context of halachic debate (provided that in the end, we ACT based on the proper consensus of our own poskim), then the debate will never ocure, and we won’t really know what the Torah wants of us.
The din of a zaken mamreh is instructive: Even after the Sanhedrin paskins a certain way on a particular issue, someone may go and verbally disagree with them – and even publicly teach that the halacha is not as the Sanhedrin paskined. He is not a zaken mamreh until he ACTS contrary to the Sanhedrin’s psak or directs others to do so. — We can always talk and discuss, that’s how we learn and that’s how we grow; it is our ultimate actions that count in the end.
Well put!!
observanteen:
RIGHT ON!!!
I was trying to get Mods to delete it, for that reason. Thanks for bringing it up.
I log on here to get inspiration (and fun too), not to de-sensitize my Yiddishe ‘gefeel’.
RSRH: Agreed. That was the approach of the Malbim and other German Rabbanim when dealing with the Reform. However, I agree with the OP that Hergesh/feelings for Yiddishkeit is a crucial element of Judaism as the Gemara says “Rachmana Liba Bo’ei”. You can’t qoute a halachic source which states that one is not yotzei a mitzah bain adam l’makom if he doesn’t feel any hergesh, but if someone is seriously lacking general hergesh for these mitzvos, then something is obviously seriously wrong with his Judaism.
Lomed: what the modernishe velt does is try to rationalize their krumkeit by saying that halacha doesn’t say anything to the contrary. They are wrong and silly though. Halacha does not say you should not have a tv or unfiltered internet in your house explicitly obviously because TV didn’t exist but it does say that you shouldn’t waste your time, it does say you should be shomer einayim, therefore you should not watch TV.
Observanteen, I am just wondering where you got the info that 50% of MO teens text on shabbos.
I am not a huge coffee room follower and did not follow the texting on shabbos thread, but I am just wondering where the stats came from.
The most annoying thing about these peoples point of view is that they think once they invent that this is only an issur derabanan it is almost muttar by them.
coffeeaddict: See that thread. The source is cited there.
I am sorry to write this, because I am probablly going to ruffle a lot of feathers but I went to a modern orthdox/chassider chasuna in Boro park in the past 6 months, and I was shocked. I felt my stomache clenching and I wanted to run out of there, i felt my soul was screaming.
There was a complete disregard and lack of sensitivity of tnzius. Meaning that ok although technically speaking a neckline may have been kosher but the dress was so tight, the shoes attention seeking, 3 inches little points, panty hose that are so thin it does not look like she has any. The band was stationed at the entrance of the ballroom and ladies were dancing in clear view of the men who were standing on their side of the stage.Obviously thriving off the idea that they are attractive and enticing.
Men were watching ladies dancing. The ladies had on provactive, head-turning tight dresses. LOng sheitals and tons of makeup.
I felt weak and sick. I felt nauseaus watching a woman posing attractively for photos in public in the lobby for her husband who was shooting the camera. Of course turning heads.
Mamish I couldn’t eat the food.
I felt I had to get out of there.
WOrld of difference between that and the chasunas in Williamsburg or Monroe!
Why does it seem like every thread turns into bashing MO Jews…I see a lot of opinions and assumptions, very few if any are accurate…it seems like the Yeshivish world doesn’t even view them as Jews, let alone frum ones…I guess supporting the state of Israel and getting a secular education makes you a goy here…
Mike, those aren’t the points that people are bothered with, you realize. However, I do think that it is unfit to post such stuff. The values and sensitivities are obviously different, but there is no room for this bashing a Chelek of Klal Yisroel. Just look back to the beginning of this thread and realize how it’s premise was violated. There are certain things which should not be brought up.
Back to the OD, a good thing to keep in mind is the difference between the Chacham and the Rasha, in the Hagadda. The Chacham does as is told and asks questions later. This is evident in his wording, what are the Chukim, Mishpatim and Eidus — he is asking during learning. The Rasha, on the other hand, asks why are we doing this?
“The Rasha, on the other hand, asks why are we doing this?”
You got the 3rd word from the end wrong: The Rasha uses “you”, not “we”.
“Why does it seem like every thread turns into bashing MO Jews”
Now that’s interesting, Mike, because to me it seems like every thread turns into bashing Chareidi Jews. And not only here, but on every Orthodox website I know. Moreover, the frum-bashing is done in the most vile and self-righteous langauge, much, much worse than MO-bashing. Yet whenever we frummies finally speak up for ourselves, the MO crowd starts whining how unfair and blunt we are. In short: we get angry when you tell lies about us, while you get angry when we tell the truth about you.
mikehall12382, agreed. I find it to be degrading and quite a chilul Hashem. As HaLeiVi mentioned, I looked carefully at the posts to see how this transpired, and it seems (as usual) to have been done unintentionally. People have to be really careful what they post.
Another thing. In the thread about “What is MO” I posted these exact words, no more, no less: “The differences between MO and Chareidim can be summarized in one word: Priorities.”
THAT POST DID NOT GO THROUGH! Why? Because some mod was probably afraid to “insult” the MO. Yet the most vicious slandering against chareidim gets through with no problem. So who are the bashed and who are the bashers?
Yeah, I shouldn’t have written “we”. That’s the famous difference.
I agree with the OP in general, but one point; by discussing something it does give it legitimacy, but the first step in fixing the problem is awareness. People can only look out for something if they know to look out for it. (I should also add that I didn’t read the texting on Shabbos thread for the same reason you mentioned.)
Lomed Mikol Adam: Yeah, and look at the results. 50% of their teens are texting on Shabbos r”l.
A. When did it become “theirs” vs ours? Aren’t we one nation?
B. To use that terminology, its ours too. (very sadly)
THAT POST DID NOT GO THROUGH! Why? Because some mod was probably afraid to “insult” the MO. Yet the most vicious slandering against chareidim gets through with no problem. So who are the bashed and who are the bashers?
At this point I would normally say something. Since I don’t really know what to say anymore, instead I give you a bracha that Hashem let you see the beauty of all Yidden. Even those that you may not agree with.
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Dear mod that deleted that post, thank you for saving my blood pressure from going up.
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Why does it seem like every thread turns into bashing MO Jews…
I was wondering that myself.
I will also put in a motion that this thread be closed.
i applaud msseker for the articulate way in which they said it all
observanteen first of all i am happy to hear you got out of depressions disbelief and confusion. I didnt see the tznius thread but the texting on shabbes and you are right the discussion of certain “heterim” was mamesh weird. Theres a story i think about the tzanzer rov who was asked by someone where does it say in shulchan aruch etc he opend his shirt and pointed to his heart and said here it says…its true that it should be enough to just believe in maamad har sinai and thats it. but asking questions even about emuna is for some ppl(if not for all)normal. i grew up modern but still heimish family and practized yiddishkeit because my father did. when i got older and had to learn rambam shmone prakim or his hakdama le mishnayos or hilchos deyos and other things it got me into thinking. once you think automaticly questions arises. after all we should perform mitzvos because we believe in hashem and toras moishe. to discuss halachic matters is ok but not everything needs to be discussesd here on CR. Noone should forget that the yetzer hara is big that people deal with emotional issues which in someway might reduce observance. Many just try to feel good about themselves which brings the to do things they would never do if everything would be alright. its very hard to think about hashem 24/7. i saw aries didnt comment i would like to know what she thinks
Maseeker…I’m just calling it the way I see it…I can’t speak of other sites as I have no idea to what you are referring… I can only comment on the threads here…bottom line is if it’s not your way it is wrong… Sorry to tell you but that is not the case, even when examples are brought down with the support of very respected Ravs, they are tossed aside and the Rabonim are chastised….
No one says you must agree and follow their derech, but to bash non stop to prove how Frum you are is wrong… There are many derechs, you do not have a monopoly on the “right” one….actually I’ll go further and say all orthodox derechs, be it chasidish, litvak, spherdich, are all correct… Different but 100% kosher…just wish some would see it as I do…. But I guess propping yourself up by pulling others down makes you feel better.
msseeker, please be mochel me. In no way did I c’v intend to hurt or embarrass you. I was a little (maybe more than a little) upset and I went too far.
I got to baseball games and you always see religious people there, however I dont think ive ever seen a Chassidic person at one
I have.
BS”D
As for the OP, I completely disagree, but your logic is sound.
You are mixing up two different concepts (I assume you have never learned Gemorah, so I’ll try to explain).
There are halachos, and then there are the mechanics that go behind (and cause) the halachos to make them what they are. For example, We know that if two people are holding a Tallis, and both calim it is theirs, they split it. That is the Halacha.
The Gemorah has a number of dafim discussing why this is so. The Rishonim and Acronim have literally thousands of pages and Torah discussing the why.
For some people, the what is enough, and they don’t want to know “why”. For others, they need to know the “why”. And for a third group (which I would place myself into, as well as others on the “Tzitzis” thread and other threads), we know the “what”, and understand the “why” as part of Limud HaTorah, and something that is a mitza to work at.
So when we say the Chaluka of the Talis is due to a Vadai or Safek, or Texting is Uvda D’chol, a Dirabbanan or D’Oraysah, it is only to find the truth of the Torah.
What bothered me in the “skirts” question was that the questioner did not seem to want the answer, but had an agenda. And Torah can not be discussed with an agenda, either from the left (Skirts should be muttar) or the right (less than four inches is Znus).
Another thing. In the thread about “What is MO” I posted these exact words, no more, no less: “The differences between MO and Chareidim can be summarized in one word: Priorities.”
I believe my first thread started in this forum was “what-makes-someone-a-charadi”
Charadi is not Chassidish, and also the opposite is not true as well. A real Charadi IMHO is still best defined as a quaker (which has nothing to do with externals, and is open to all types of Jews).
Well, when an OP opens a thread asking “Why is texting on Shabbos okay?”, I think the concern of OP of this thread (observanteen) is very well founded.
Well, when an OP opens a thread asking “Why is texting on Shabbos okay?”, I think the concern of OP of this thread (observanteen) is very well founded.
And I thought the question was posed as a negative assertion. As in “what are people thinking that texting is Muttar?”
That is very nice, gavra but when you are discussing learning outside the bais medrash with a large unknown audience you must be careful what you write. Also maybe you look at it as a chance to talk in learning but when ‘someone’ writes ” could not find anywhere in halacha where it says…” than they are not looking to talk in learning. Especially if someone than gives them quite a few mekoros in halacha and they still do not change their view.
And it is not merely talking in learning if you are trying to force something to be a derabanan. The attitude was almost like if it is assur midrabanan it is basically muttar. That is not called talking in learning. And it is not talking in learning if you have a conclusion that it is a derabanan without understanding the basics of hilchos shabbos
My dear MO brothers and sisters,
I have nothing against you personally, only hashkafically. I love you dearly as part of klal yisrael and would put my life on the line to help you were you in need. Let me explain why I’m so upset. We do not have TV, movies, theater, even secular magazines, newspapers, or the general internet. I was so happy to discover this little CR, a safe outlet for us and our kids. But along came some MO posters and started questioning, nitpicking, even ridiculing the very fundamentals of our way of life, sometimes in a very disrespectful way, to put it mildly. Some of you told my kids, effectively, that movies are OK, texting on Shabbos is nisht geferlach, kolel is terrible while TV may be a good thing, and chareidim, especially chassidim, are too extreme, even abnormal. One of you told without shame that he went to a theater(!) in the nine days(!). Rabosai, this is anathema to us. You are on a visit to YESHIVA WORLD, PLEASE BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY. Don’t flaunt your heterim on our turf; it’s not derech eretz. Please pretend that you respect our gedarim and chumras, just as you would pretend to respect anyone’s preferences, especially in front of their children. If you don’t like our way of life, go air out your grievances on other sites; there are plenty for you to choose from. Of course you can bring up our faults, but only in a respectful manner, just as you would criticize anyone. I promise you we’ll respect you in return, though we might not approve of your kulos, of course. (if we did, why, we’d be MO too; it’s much easier!)
All the best, have a good Shabbos (no texting, please!:-)
The attitude was almost like if it is assur midrabanan it is basically muttar.
That is a problem in attitude. Your logic is sound, and is the reason why in many cases, I will ask for a strict Halachic/Torah discussion, to weed out those with “bad attitude”.
Especially if someone than gives them quite a few mekoros in halacha and they still do not change their view.
Which is what I said in the skirts thread. However, in the texting thread, I believe that was based in Halacha (such as my post on batteries). One poster did have an agenda, but also did bring in many critical halachic points (such as what makes Kesiva Doraysah). Even that poster admitted that it was Assur, but thought people were being Moreh Heter due to them not knowing the Issur (also a good point, to teach the why so that people don’t make up their own reasons & reject them (see:Chava)). The poster in question did not reject the points, but brought logical responses. That is Shakla V’Tarya, not trolling.
In short, I think your point is that one should not have a halachic discussion if someone else might be nichshal due to it.
That is a Gemorah BB 89b, that you discuss, and those who are Reshaim will use their excuses.
?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? (???? ??) ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??
Torah is Yashar. If someone wants to twist it, that is their problem.
I think its ok to ask questions about yiddishkeit but you have to know that at the end of the day you will not understand and you dont have to understand. you have to follow what we are told to do and thats it!
Don’t flaunt your heterim on our turf; it’s not derech eretz.
LOL! Might I suggest a sealed box?
Thanks for the back handed apology, For example your little jab…
“we might not approve of your kulos, of course. (if we did, why, we’d be MO too; it’s much easier!)”
And by the way this site, this Yeshivish site has a Facebook page…Why do I bring that up AGAIN?? Becasue you cant paint an entire people with one brush…
Just like some Yeshivish people wouldn’t dare go on Facebook, the site catering to them has a page…
So, if you are going to let your kids come to this “safe” enviroment, beware that they can easily click on a link on the top left of this very page and go to facebook and youtube….
“So, if you are going to let your kids come to this “safe” enviroment, beware that they can easily click on a link on the top left of this very page and go to facebook and youtube….”
Nope. My server (Yeshivanet) won’t allow them. It has a whitelist filter, opening only the sites that I ask for and Yeshivanet approves.
I agree fully with the Chacham. That’s what I was referring to with my Chacham Rasha comparison. When you are in Beis Medrash and among people that you know and relate to, you can bring this up. In the public you have to be responsible.
Keep in mind that Rava (I think) expelled a Talmid for revealing what was spoken about in Beis Medrash.
“The differences between MO and Chareidim can be summarized in one word: Priorities.”
Kapusta, why would this post give anyone a high blood pressure? Those ain’t fightin’ words.
observanteen:
I’m sorry you feel that way.
I have a hard time seeing what you find so offensive about my thread, even if you disagree with me. I’m open to being convinced that I’m wrong; I’m not bashing anyone; and there is nothing vulgar about the discussion itself.
If it is making people leave, I guess it should be closed. I certainly don’t want to chase anyone away.
Anyone else want to weigh in on this? Does the actual discussion bother you?
And I agree with everything you just said.
msseeker, BTW, whether you want to recognize it or not MO are also “frummies”. Furthermore YW is NOT YOUR turf, it is public turf for ALL jews. YOU don’t own it or run it. If the MODS do not want certain people here or want to exclude someone it is up to them and not you.
jmj613, we have had this discussion on other threads so I was trying to stay out of it. You probably have already guessed what my opinion is, but here it is.
It is hypocritical of anyone who calls themselves Chareidi to come on the internet and then spout anything about right and wrong. Just the fact that they are here is against everything their Rabbonim speak about. They are blogging and having discussions with mixed company besides being on the internet. No matter what heterim they give themselves, no matter what filters they put on their computers, bottom line is their leaders say it is “Assur” to be here so that is the first thing I have to say.
Next. If you see something you don’t like there are nice ways and “not nice” ways of saying things. Msseeker did NOT discuss “her?” displeasure in a nice manner. When I go to a wedding and see that the Olam is a bit out of control it makes me sad not angry. I don’t judge others I feel bad for them that they don’t understand the beauty of tznius and behaving in a true tzniusdik manner especially in public. They are missing out and don’t understand what I do understand. That is a chaval. If I am at a Frum wedding and I see some of the young kids (the kallah and chosson’s friends) start dancing together in front of the Kallah or on the girls side I go over quietly and tell them “I am sorry to break this up but this is NOT appropriate here. If they say “it is OK with the Kallah” I say “it is the parents who are making and paying for this event and it is NOT OK with them. Let us not cause embarrassment for them in front of their friends and family or make things uncomfortable for them as the hosts of this Simcha, can’t we all just have a good time without breaking the rules, please?” And they just smile and agree and go back to their own places. All they really want to do is have a good time and not ruin anyone else’s good time.
So you see there are ways to handle any situation in a nice and polite manner. As far as this website is concerned. It has a standard that it keeps to and WE are NOT the ones that judge what that standard should be. This is NOT a chareidi website. Obviously that would be ridiculous since chareidim are NOT supposed to be on the internet to begin with. Yeshivish people, according to their Rebbeim are also NOT supposed to be here, so to pronounce this a chareidi/yeshivish site and MO people don’t belong here with their ideas and opinions is totally ludicrous. This is a Jewish website for Orthodox Jews controlled and moderated by Frum Jews who work carefully and closely to keep it clean and kosher. They don’t allow Rabbi bashing and they try to keep us from bashing each other as well.
So my opinion is we should keep offering each other positive support in the ways that we need and are looking for. We should stop judging others and try to be more welcoming and show more ahavas yisroel. We should stop thinking that we are each smarter than the next as we share our knowledge and experience. We should acknowledge others for their knowledge and experience and understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and feelings. However, we should be careful how we present them as to NOT hurt others.
Read the later posts there.
I am saying:
1. Romance is not treif.
2. Your kids should know you love your wife. By showing it in your home.
3. Using the concept of romance in your connection with Hashem is absolutely appropriate, and I am unconvinced that romantic songs are inappropriate for that.
I am not saying:
That movies, TV, looking at shiktzas, goyishe music, facebook, twitter, YWN, Public Displays of Affection, are ok.
PBA, it is very important that the kids see warmth and affection from their parents so they know how to emulate that in their own relationships.
Observeanteen, may I suggest to you that you try filtering. You do not have to read nor get involved in every thread. If you do not agree or feel it is not a topic appropriate for your age or hashkofah, don’t go there, or don’t get involved. Personally I choose to skip over many topics because either it is not something I am knowledgeable about, or I don’t want to get in middle of the arguement.
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