A Possible Explanation

OMG!!! please enough already, everyone has his own explanation as to why we have covid 19, the last time I check the last of the nivim was about 2000 years ago, At the height of the epidemic I got 17 robo calls in one day with everyone’s agenda as to why this happened ranging from long shaytils, to fancy weddings, to speaking loshen horah, to technology, to the gay parade to building of multi family housing,
PLEASE STOP, no one knows and anybody who claim they know der aybisters chesbons is a kofer.

How does that explain the deaths of Rav Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron Or the Novominsker Rebbe

WOW.

In the beginning, it was spread that only the goyim were taken.

Then it was only the sinners.

Then it was only those that disobeyed precautions.

Then it was the Pure (ignoring all those previous goyim sinners that defied the rules).

Maybe we can learn to accept that Corona doesn’t discriminate

THIS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DUMB!!!!, NOBODY KNOW WHY

We don’t have neveim. Thats all. Nobody can know why. The explanation that most resonates with me is that we are supposed to take this time when we are forced to be alone to look inside ourselves and see what we as individuals are doing wrong. So much easier to point at others….sheitel too long, talks in shul, talks loshon hora, fancy wedding etc., than to search for the chometz in ourselves. Be dan l’zchus others and do teshuva yourself…every second of life that HKBH has given you.

The Tosfos Yom Tov identified talking in shul as the cause of the terrible tragedies during Tach V’Tat. And many other Gedolim have identified other reasons for other tragedies.

Dear Joseph,
Could the who are the Gedolim? I refer you to all the other posts. It seems inconclusive.

Dear Common,
I agree with your overall point. But, whom do you speak of as a Navi 2000 years ago? Do you mean Hillel? Then, by comparison Reb Eliezer HaGadol was also a novi, and so on. Let us keep in mind that Hashem reveals to the neviim what will happen BEFORE it takes place.

Dear NOYB,
Why and Hashem should not be used in the same sentence. Hashem’s servants ask what have we done wrong? And, what is demanded from me now? As essence becomes more celestial, reasons disappear and become replaced with consequences. Those that are dedicated to their own emunah, never move on from good questions.

nOm, you are not free to dismiss it because it is a maamar chazal, and you don’t want ch”v to be included in the category of מכחיש מגידיה.

Dear Milhouse,
How does a statement become a maamor chazzal? I am offering to print your statement in my next sefer, if that is what it takes. Someone stated something that we feel should have been left unmentioned. The fact that the idea is printed doesn’t give him license.

In my addition, it is indeed in parsha 8. And if you actually bother reading to the end of the midrash, you will see that Rav Huna apparently disagrees. The larger point of the midrash seems to be that when people sin in private, the fruits of that become public. I might suggest that it would be much more beneficial to think about that idea rather than to worry about how Hashem punishes mamzerim.

Dear Milhouse,
The ma’amar is not ancient origin, I was wondering why you call it a ma’amar chazzal. If you are referring to the statement of Rav Chanina, can you supply the original? I only have an old print with me, and am unsure if it the same one from Parshas Noach.

It has literally been years since I posted here. I look at these “reasons” and “explanations”, and I shake my head. ‘plus ca change, plus c’est le meme choses’.

HKBH brought this upon the world just as he brings every wonderful and every terrible thing. He has a ketz in his plan and this is part of the path towards it. If there is anything to learn from it, perhaps it lies in these things that have become self evident during this time.

1. The hedonist on the beach and the illui in the beis medrash can have few things in common beyond having two arms and two legs. But one thing they do share is that willful ignorance of vinishmartem meod lenafshoseichem can kill either one of them. It is each person’s responsibility to safeguard their health and that of their loved ones, to do their own hishtadlus in this respect. It isn’t a matter of communal guidance from someone else who isnt a medical professional or not listening to one. It is a commandment mideoraisa for each one of us. The consequences of not taking this personal achrayus are rachmono litzlan abundantly and horrifically clear.

2. Generosity is vital, but gratitude is paramount. We say thank you to HKBH every day. He sends us sustenance, inspiration, food, medicine, treatment, first response. He sends us the means to offer help to the deathly ill through donating plasma. If someone sent you a gift through a shaliach, would you not thank the shaliach?

3. What you do choose to do impacts others. What you choose not to do impacts others. If you choose not to socially distance, YOU are responsible for the consequences, not the person or the rov or the kol koreh who told you to ignore it, just as surely as the pastor in Louisiana or the partygoer in Daytona. Spreading the virus if you had an opportunity to avoid doing so is a transgression. It’s a perfect example of a Laav she’ein bo maaseh. And while you can go learn gemorah makkos to determine if you are chayyav malkus for it or not, you’ll have to answer to HKBH at the end of your days about the lives you may have taken.

4. There is tremendous chesed being done on behalf of those who are mourning, those who are old and infirm, those who are housebound, those who simply need someone to talk to because they are alone and scared. This has brought out the best in us and we should all be proud of our community for always giving, especially b’eis tzoroh.

5. Suffering is a terrible thing. It is terrible for everyone. The playing field is level, now. HKBH has determined that the tzadik and the bulvan are both potential victims. In some things all of HKBH’s creations are the same. So, please remember. Pride does not have to be Gaivah.

I’m sure there are many more lessons to learn that have nothing to do with sheitels, or mamzeirim, or anything else. You want an explanation? HKBH is the beginning and the end, and all he does is for a reason. He doesn’t share that with bosor ve’dom, not anymore. Learn what you can from the experience, but don’t have the arrogance to think you know the reason.

@yichdick “I’m sure there are many more lessons to learn that have nothing to do with sheitels, or mamzeirim, or anything else. You want an explanation? HKBH is the beginning and the end, and all he does is for a reason. He doesn’t share that with bosor ve’dom, not anymore. Learn what you can from the experience, but don’t have the arrogance to think you know the reason. ”
WOW WOW!!! how wonderfully you put it down, thank you thank you thank you

To be sure, many (perhaps most) Rishonim say that we are not required what is stated in the Midrash.
I am not commenting on this or any other Ma’amar Chazal in particular, just on the general question of whether we are beholden to believe everything that is written in Midrashim (or, for that matter, according to many, in Aggadeta Gemaros).

Well, to start, the Ramban says so explicitly in Seder HaVikuach, and so does Rav Shmuel HaNagid in Mevo HaTalmud. (It’s worth noting that, although not a Rishon, Rav Hirsch followed this view as well, as he writes in Collected Writings)
The Ibn Ezra disagrees with Midrashim countless times in his Peirush on Chumash, as does the Ramban, as well as the Radak in his Peirush on Nach.

The Ritva says that the whole story of what happened during the debate about Tanur Shel Achnai didn’t really happen.

The Rambam in his commentary to Mishnayos writes that whoever thinks that everything Chazal say must be taken literally is a fool who makes the Chachamim seen like fools.

The list goes on.

I know there are those who argue, and that’s fine. Just don’t pretend this isn’t a mainstream opinion.

Dear Common,
If there is a novi today, why do you assume that we would know about him/her? The neviim stated that Hashem always reveals what will happen BEFORE He enacts His Word.

Dear Someone,
To make your point, based on this Medrash, we would need to find where Rav Chanina said his statement. It seems very likely that the Darshan never intended as the cause for a plague.

Where R Chanina said it? He said it here. What makes you think it’s late? Because the Maskilim y”sh said so?! But even if that’s true, it must have been compiled from an earlier manuscript, or a set of such. The compiler, whoever he was and whenever he lived, didn’t make things up, ch”v.

Dear Milhouse,
A medrash that is quoting whole sections of other midrashim was compiled later. Also, when the names are random and not chronological, it means that it was not put together in person. Third, when there is no mention of the activity of the Beis Medrash, that means it was done in private. I hope we could agree that no Jew would have the audacity to publish an anonymous private work, when the Yeshivos in Bavel were thriving as the Torah Centers of the World.

Dear Milhouse,
The most accepted view of how to treat statements of Chazzal is Ramban Al HaTorah. The Ibn Ezra openly refutes midrashim & piyutim. The Ramban allows that. The Ramban objects when it appears that Rav Avraham is intelligent for doing so.(i. e. It seems he knows better than the medrash. As opposed to simply being unaware what the medrash could mean. Of course the Ibn Ezra was exceedingly humble about these things. But not every casual reader is aware of that.)

Milhouse –
Due to the constraints of time, shorthand responses point by point:

1. I understand it may be surprising, even shocking. I was also startled when I first saw it. I know this is not what we learned in Yeshiva. Nevertheless, it is abundantly clear to the objective researcher that many Rishonim and Acharonim held this way. Are you labelling Rav Shamshon Rafael Hirsch an apikorus?

2. The Rambam labels both of the first two groups fools, but does not label either one of them as heretics. He does label as heretics those who deny Torah Min Hashomayim, including both Oral and Written Torah, but seems to define Oral Torah as the “explanation of the Written Torah, such as how to [perform the Mitzvos],” which is precisely the definition given by the Ramban. I do not defend heretics. I am merely presenting the view (which is widely held among the greatest authorities) that Midrash (and, according to many, Agadeta) are not part of the Torah which was given to Moshe at Har Sinai.

3. The passage in Sefer HaVikuach is quoted by some of the greatest Acharonim, including, for example, Chasam Sofer in Teshuvos, none of whom (to my knowledge) advanced your argument. It is true that, there are some recent Rabanim who take your approach and discount any points made in a Vikuach. To me, this is an outrage. Do you really mean to allege that the Ramban promulgated apikorsus in defense of our Torah?! (Quite aside from the fact that his opponent in that debate was an apostate Jew who was rather learned and would have been able to destroy that particular argument if it was not the real truth). This is very different from the Gemaros you reference, for obvious reasons.

4. It’s rather clear that the Ibn Ezra, Ramban, Radak, and many others have no problem disputing the historical facts asserted in Midrashim. If you want to say, “Well, Vashti didn’t literally have a tail, but the Gemara is teaching us a lesson in Middos,” that’s absolutely fine. It is, to paraphrase the Ramban, just like when a Darshan embellishes a story in Chumash to teach a lesson. We are free to accept it or not to, each according to his understanding. Of course, this is not to say that the lesson is not valuable; just that the Derashos of Rav Tanchuma in his day were not (according to this opinion) any more Torah Min HaShomayim than those of Rav Shalom Schwadron in his day. I am not saying it isn’t true in the sense that it is instructive, or relevant in the sense that it addresses us, just that this opinion holds that it isn’t an “inherent part of the Torah.” I am not stupid enough to pretend for a moment that I approach the greatness of intellect of Chazal. Of course, when they speak, we should listen. It is the foolishness of the Rambam’s second group to think that we are on anything approaching equal footing with Chazal. That is not the question at hand. Our discussion is about whether Midrash is part and parcel of Torah Min HaShomayim, not whether we should learn the lessons it teaches.

I notice that you did not address Rav Shmuel HaNagid or the RItva.

For the record, if I recall correctly, the Chasam Sofer accepts the Ramban implicitly, and only enters into discussion about whether the Ramban meant to include Agadeta Gemaros with Midrashim, or if he held those were part of the Oral Torah.

There are those who attempted to sweep the letter from Rav Hirsch under the rug by disputing its veracity, but they ultimately had to acknowledge that there is no question that the letter was accurate. When pressed about it, they reputedly responded, “Rav Hirsch iz nisht fuhn unzer Beis Medrash.” This to me is rather telling about their own intellectual dishonesty, but not at all about the actual discussion.

As I said in my first post in this thread, I am not commenting on this particular Medrash, just on the general question of whether we are obliged to accept every Medrash as part of the Torah.
According to the opinion of the Ramban et al, one doesn’t need specific permission for each statement of the Medrash. However, I agree that it feeling uncomfortable is not a logical reason not to accept it. This is especially true if, as I understand it, this Medrash is intended to teach a lesson rather than to be taken literally.