December 20, 2010 3:09 am at 3:09 am #593598
The never-ending “shidduch crisis” is has gone on too long. Isn’t it time for a radical solution? The Chasidim seem to have a formula that works. They don’t have nearly the shidduch crisis the non-Chasidic world has. This can be testified to by almost anyone in the know of the shidduch crisis.
Is it, perhaps, time we adopted their tried-and-true method of shidduchim? It isn’t even all that radical. In addition to their having successfully practiced this form of shidduchim as long as they have been in America, we all actually practiced something along the same lines as what the Chasidim currently do to put shidduchim together — before our zeida’s and bubbe’s came to America this was, more or less, the way we all did it.
We’ve been hearing about the crisis on and on for years and years. It’s time to try something new. Something that works. Something proven.December 20, 2010 9:38 am at 9:38 am #719387haifagirlParticipant
Is it just me, or is there something strange about calling something “tried-and-true,” something done “before our zeidas and bubbes came to America,” something “proven,” something new?
Seems to me it’s something old.December 20, 2010 11:31 am at 11:31 am #719388
Sometimes it’s hard to return to a previous state of t’mimus…one of the reasons their system still works is because of the high level of tzniyus the TRUE-BLUE chassidim (not the confused ones) maintain all along.
When boy meets girl,it’s truly exciting,and when wise parents have input,it helps.(by “wise”I mean without selfish agendas)It’s hard to imitate that success without the same preliminaries in place.Not impossible,just more challenging.I am litvish,but I respect the REAL chassidim.December 20, 2010 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #719389AZParticipant
Sorry to burst your bubble:
As discssed at length the reason for the present crisis has very little to do with the stlye fo dating. as such changing to the chadisshe model (even if it happened) would do little to alleviate the terrible situation.
Unless you mean to change to the ages at which chassidim start dating….. short of that it won’t help much….December 20, 2010 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #719390
TheChevra, what aspect appeals? The type of investigations they make? Meeting in advance? Bshows? I have no quarrel with that.
What I am concerned about is pushing our boys to marry young, or at least younger than they might have considered. This will necessitate even more support, for starters. Unless there is a concurrent effort to make our young men more resourceful and prepared for the responsibilities that could become theirs fully at the turn of a dime, won’t work. Not in anyone’s best interests.December 20, 2010 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #719392
Boys should get married at 17, and girls at 18.
Simple solution 🙂December 20, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #719393
AZ, I do think the Chasidish ages for marriage is one of the big things worth emulating.
mdd, the divorce rate is much lower amongst the Chasidim – and I would venture to say the happiness rate is much higher. Even the well known Moden Orthodox marriage counselor Dr. Yael Respler promotes Chasidish style, because of the success.December 20, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #719396
Eclipse, I’m amazed at your astuteness. It’s rare for an outsider to grasp the “insides” of Chassidus and Chassidim with such clarity.December 20, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #719398fabieMember
I don’t know what the crisis is in the USA, but in E”Y it’s money!December 20, 2010 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #719401
The chassidish method works for two main reasons:
1) They start the boys at about the same age as the girls. So, they don’t have the litvish age gap problem of boys starting at 22-23 & girls starting at 18-19.
2) The parents do much more checking & before letting a shidduch even begin – are comfortable with the couple getting engaged.
The litvish system is set up differently & to change it would be difficult.December 20, 2010 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #719404
Anyone who wants can do the chassidish way. If you have a decent first date, just propose at the end.December 20, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #719405
lkwdfellow, there are those who would flip what you write and solve the problem by having the girls start dating at 22-23 too. I don’t like where that’s coming from. Somehow, we have to be able to maintain a level of Torah, and an educated Torahdik laity, while impressing on our girls that their greatest satisfaction and accomplishment will come from managing their homes, even if it means not being able to be the financial support of the Torah in their lives.December 20, 2010 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #719406
tzippi – I didn’t say the girls should start at 22-23. The chassidim start the boys & girls at 18-19. If you want to copy them – you need to start the boys at the same age as the girls.December 20, 2010 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #719408
lkwdfellow, Since it has been postulated that the age gap is a leading cause of the crisis, and the Chasidim don’t nearly have this age gap crisis, following what works for them may bear fruit for us too. Meaning studying and implementing the ages they marry, to the extent possible.
Change isn’t easy, no one said it is. But we do want to resolve the crisis to the extent attainable.December 20, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #719409
really inexcusable bad taste
I wouldn’t know what it tastes like. You seem to have experience though- enlighten us.December 20, 2010 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #719410YW Moderator-77Member
Is this supposed to be funny? really inexcusable bad taste
My thoughts exactly.
Thread closed.December 20, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #719411YW Moderator-77Member
A suggestion was made in another thread to delete the posts that are in bad taste and re-open the topic.
But please keep this discussion civil and on topic.December 20, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #719412
Thank You Mod-29.December 20, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #719413
msseeker,t.y.December 20, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #719414WolfishMusingsParticipant
< off topic moment >
My apologies to anyone who was offended by my remark.
< /off topic moment >December 20, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #719415
I thought I had a really good idea, but I can’t remember it right now.December 20, 2010 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #719416ronrsrMember
what do you do about the maturity gap? With a few exceptions girls at 18 are much more mature than boys at 18.December 20, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #719417
The maturity gap? Well, we could teach girls to be immature.
I was actually working on my own immaturity earlier, but mod 29 didn’t like it.December 20, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #719418
You can use it over on the Jonathan Swift thread.
ronrsr: Why does the boy need to be mature?December 20, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #719419AZParticipant
Is guys 22 – girls 20 soooooo unreasonable……
I think not….
and that would save a thousand girls +
Sounds to me like it’s worth implementing….December 20, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #719420
ronrsr – maturity gap is created by how we set up our system. A boy who knows that he needs to get married at 18-19 (chassidish-style) will mature at that age. If he knows he doesn’t have to get married till 22-23 – he’ll wait till then to mature…
TheChevra – that’s my point. If they have a system that’s working – it pays to see why it’s working, while our system isn’t…December 20, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #719421sof davar hakol nishmaMember
as someone else posted , since when does the chassidish style work so much better? are they all happily married? how do you know they don’t divorce simply because they’re scared to and stick it out? Do you have any substantial proof for this or its all assumptions?
There are quite a few problems with the chassisdish style of dating but some i can’t enumerate here.December 20, 2010 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #719422
I have divorced friends who are chassidish and I don’t remember any of them attributing the cause of their divorce to their “system”.
It doesn’t mean that isn’t sometimes the reason,but the same goes for us.December 20, 2010 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #719423
Sof Davar- don’t start. If you’re not Chassidish you’ll never understand.
But take it from a Chassidish woman who had a Beshow, YES IT WORKS.
Myself and all my friends are B”H so happily married for years and very genuinely at that. We face the same challenges that Litvish couples face. No couple is perfect.December 20, 2010 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #719424
Sof Davar- don’t start. If you’re not Chassidish you’ll never understand.
If you can’t understand it, does the system still work?
And if it doesn’t, why suggest it? 😉
It may help to explain it (slowly, like to a child), and then people who “don’t understand” might take it seriously.December 20, 2010 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #719425
Okay, let me make this clear once and for all. Less older singles,
or less divorces does NOT necessarily equal happier marriages.
And “smartcookie” I’m chassidish too. Because you and your friends are happy does not mean that the system works. I know tons of people who it didn’t work for. And as someone else has mentioned the lower divorce rate (which has btw risen tremendously in recent years) has more to do with the fear of the resulting stigma than with being happily married.December 20, 2010 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #719426
Gavra- it aint gonna work. You gotta do it this style for many generations!
No matter how much explanation you get, you’ll still think we’re insane. When I think into it, it also seems crazy that we meet 1-3 times and Mazel Tov!
But I live in those circles, and I’m used to it, and it works!December 20, 2010 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #719427
Oh and for the b’show / dating process I want to add that by most chassidishe young people who follow the 1 or 2 meetings -and -get engaged.. there’s a huge fear of saying “no” to the boy or girl after a bshow, and many couples get engaged despite a lack of chemistry/attraction. And lots of them live forever in loveless marriages, although there could technically be “shalom bayis”. ( in other words: not overly happy, yet not bad enough to leave..)
so although some posters will say “I’m happy, other chassidish people are happy etc..” Yes. I also B”h know lots of happy chassidish couples, but it is mostly luck. but not proof of a better system.December 20, 2010 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #719428bptParticipant
As someone who straddles the line of yeshivish and chaddidish, I doubt the “beshow” process will work for yeshivish / litvish singles for one reason only: they are better educated than their parents, so they think they’re smarter than them too.
In the chassidishe velt, the singles are raised on the belief that the “friedike dor” is the be-all, end-all, so if momma / poppa says xyz, its xyz.. even if the modern world says otherwise.
My kids (and most likley, my future D-I-Ls) know more than me / Mrs, when it comes to raw data, and tech info. But are they smarterr? Hmm….December 20, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #719429
So you disagree with “the chevra” who says that the Chassidish solution can apply to non-chassidim?
P.S. It is not crazy, it has to do with expectations and exposure.
In the Alter Heim, you came home from work (as a boy),& your father told you that you were engaged, and you asked to who?
And it worked, and they were happy (see: “do you love me”, Fiddler on the Roof).December 20, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #719430
Willi- of course it doesn’t always work. Many many many problems in Chassidish circles too.
But those problems dont necessarily stem from not dating.
The point is that people who date are NOT happier.December 20, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #719431
Gavra- yes I disagree. It won’t work with the Litvish world because they are so into chemistry chemistry chemistry.
Of course there has to be chemistry, but there’s more to a Shidduch than feelings.December 20, 2010 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #719432OfcourseMember
willi “the lower divorce rate (which has btw risen tremendously in recent years) has more to do with the fear of the resulting stigma than with being happily married”
You think the rate of unhappiness and issues is high or higher in the Chassidish community? Be assured that is not the case at all. I’ve heard from a Rov who involves himself in Shalom Bayis issues in a Litvish community, that almost every marriage has its very serious issues. I dont think we can measure whether there are either more or less in the Chassidish community to the “T”. As far as the stigma, there is a stigma regarding divorce for example -its effect on children’s lives, their self esteem and Shidduchim in Litvish communities, just the same. Gimme a break.December 20, 2010 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #719433SacrilegeMember
There is, like what?
Most people dont expect fireworks to go off the minute they meet the person. At the same time by date 5, you want to FEEL something.December 20, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #719434
Smartcookie, they’re not just into chemistry, they’re also into mathematics.December 20, 2010 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #719435
Most chassidim dont expect fireworks to go off the minute they marry the person. At the same time by sheva brochos 5, you want to FEEL something. And we do. B/C this is human nature.December 20, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #719436
MSseeker- that’s true. Anyone with normal brains, will feel some emotional connection to their chosson/Kallah, even if they only have 2 Bashows.December 20, 2010 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #719437
“It won’t work with the Litvish world because they are so into chemistry chemistry chemistry.”
And looks looks looks. ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ?????.December 20, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #719438
Anyone with normal brains, will feel some emotional connection to their chosson/Kallah, even if they only have 2 Bashows.
I don’t believe that. We may have different definitions on what an emotional connection is.December 20, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #719439
Msseeker- Chassidim are also into looks to some extent. It is very important. But it’s not the main.
For the 1,000,000th time were having this discussion….December 20, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #719440SacrilegeMember
WOW, I have so many things to say on that, that wouldnt be approved…December 20, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #719441
of course – I don’t think your reply has anything to do with my post. I was clarifying some stuff about the chassidish oilem cuz that’s what I’m familiar with. I did not say anywhere that litvish marriages are more successful. I was stating info about why adopting the chassidish shidduch system isn’t the answer to the “crisis”.
And btw the jewish / frum/ religious world isn’t only limited to chassidish and litvish- which you are bringing as a comparison. there are many different types of yidden that we’re dealing with here.December 20, 2010 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #719442
“Msseeker- Chassidim are also into looks to some extent. It is very important. But it’s not the main.”
Understatement of the year. The difference is HUGE. Can you imagine a good chassidishe boy talking “grob” about sizes and looks like the litvishe bnei torah here?December 20, 2010 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #719443
Msseeker- don’t stretch my words- I said “to some extent”.
Anyway, it’s the mother of the boy who makes sure the girl looks sweet, put together, and good enough. The boy only gives the last approval.December 20, 2010 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #719444HadaLXTPMember
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned outside influence as a cause for divorce rates? Be it Litvish or Chasidish.
As a side note I think the mods should put Litvish and Chasidish in to their dictionary so that there won’t be any spell check issues. Chasidim as well. 🙂
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