A real test for me:Your suggestions?

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  • January 2, 2011 7:33 am at 7:33 am #593887
    eclipse
    Member

    1.I think it’s tremendously important for children to grow up with pleasant zemiros sung as a family around the Shabbos table.For many reasons.

    THE PROBLEM IS:IT’S POSSIBLE FOR THE UPSTAIRS NEIGHBORS TO HEAR US(my voice is kol isha).

    2.When things get tense,singing with the piano is very relaxing.

    THE PROBLEM IS:SAME AS ABOVE.

    Intellectually,I know what the answer might be.(I’ve asked my kids to “overpower” my voice,but they’re young,and a bochur’s voice doesn’t block out a female voice.)On Sukkos,when we are outside,I DO NOT SING AT ALL.So the question is:If I am in the “privacy”of my own apartment,but living in a house with “paper-thin” walls…is that it?

    January 2, 2011 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #724243
    A23
    Participant

    While I have no answer, you are obviously very considerate of others.

    January 2, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #724244
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That’s a hard issue. Did you ask your Rov if you are allowed to sing anyway?

    January 2, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #724245
    real-brisker
    Member

    It may be best to contact a rov regarding this.

    January 2, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #724246
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I highly doubt it is a problem. Isn’t there a famous story about a gadol who waited outside his home, because he didn’t want to disturb the cleaning lady’s singing?

    January 2, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #724247
    RuffRuff
    Member

    Just a practical idea:

    You can find out what time of the day the direct neighbors aren’t home.

    Are you sure your voice is heard over the piano?

    January 2, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #724248
    smartcookie
    Member

    Eclipse, I always sing along with the Zmiros in my home, however, I sing in a low voice. Why do you feel that you have to sing loud?

    January 2, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #724250
    aries2756
    Participant

    I believe you are allowed to sing in your own home without worrying who is listening outside. That would be a d’eved on their part. At any rate YOU are allowed to sing, the onus is on men who are not allowed to listen to you. So if they don’t come knocking on your door asking to come in and listen to you then there should not be a problem. If they don’t put their ears to the floor to hear you more clearly that should not be a problem either. Whatever they do hear is distorted and filtered through the floors, walls, insulation, etc.

    Ask your Rav for peace of mind and then enjoy yourself. May your tefilos reach Hashem through your voice in song.

    January 2, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #724251
    Derech HaMelech
    Member

    You should find out if it is ok for you to sing if you are in a group. I have heard that if no one can pick out your voice that it is ok.

    January 2, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #724252
    oomis
    Participant

    You are not being seen by the neighbor. You are singing with your family. You are in your own home. Ask your rov, if he thinks that you needed more than ONE of these reasons to give you a heter, much less ALL three. Providing a proper and enjoyable Shabbos atmosphere at the table for your children is more important than being overly worried about what someone in ANOTHER apartment UPSTAIRS may or may not be able to hear. At most, it is muffled noise. Unless you are Ethel Merman, your voice is HIGHLY unlikely to be distinctively heard among the others by the males upstairs. They can always outsing you with their own zmiros, if it bothers them.

    Aries made good pointsm btw.

    January 2, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #724253
    eclipse
    Member

    Wow,thanks,everyone.I think I will combine all of your advice…try not to sing when I know they are directly above us having their meal at the exact same time,sing a bit lower and explain to my kids why,and maybe ask the neighbors straight out how clear it is.(But Mods…um?)

    January 2, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #724254
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You forgot the most important advice: Ask your Rov if it is a problem at all.

    January 2, 2011 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #724255
    eclipse
    Member

    P.B.A.I once asked, but it depended on all these factors,he said.

    Sometimes,the answer requires total honesty with oneself.

    Like,in Canada there is more privacy between families,so it was never an issue there.Anyway,thanks again.

    January 2, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #724256
    Trying my best
    Member

    So what have you been doing until now?

    And what prompted you to reconsider your position at this time?

    January 3, 2011 2:41 am at 2:41 am #724257
    frumladygit
    Member

    Eclipse, one of the things I miss is singing since having become frum. One problem is the songs. I don’t know much yiddish and was not raised with any zemiros so I really don’t know what to sing! The only songs I know and enjoy to sing are “goyish” and I try to refrain them. Its quite painful because as I remember singing made me happy. But I gave it up. Not because of neighbors and not because others can hear me.

    January 3, 2011 11:33 am at 11:33 am #724258
    eclipse
    Member

    FLG…you can take the refined tunes(of those “goyish songs” you remember) and rewrite them with meaningful English words…you will merge both worlds seamlessly.Just for yourself…for the fun of it.

    Also,stock up on some great Jewish tapes.I think you’d like anything by Abie Rotenberg…and Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum has 2 stunning Shabbos Zemiros tapes(still in the stores?).I am an FFB and learned a few beautiful NEW tunes from that tape.Enjoy!

    January 3, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #724259
    Nonsense
    Member

    There is the story (I forgot who) of a girl aspiring to become a opera star, she got an assurance that if she’d stop she would beget Talmidei Chachomim.

    January 3, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #724260
    well meaning busy body
    Member

    Yochie

    “There is the story” someone posted in the Yichus thread

    January 4, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #724261
    dunno
    Member

    I always thought a female singing zemiros even in the presence of men is ok.

    January 4, 2011 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #724262
    Cedarhurst
    Member

    Dunno, not if non-immediate family are present or can hear you.

    January 4, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #724263
    shlomozalman
    Member

    “Isn’t there a famous story about a gadol who waited outside his home, because he didn’t want to disturb the cleaning lady’s singing? “

    Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt”l

    January 4, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #724264
    dunno
    Member

    Cedarhurst

    Are you sure? I seem to recall learning that zemiros are the exception for kol isha.

    January 4, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #724265
    RuffRuff
    Member

    Shlomo Zalman,

    I think you’re a bit biased about that. I heard it about Reb Wozner’s mother.

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