February 27, 2019 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1686154
Recently, various kehillos made useful “takonos” for weddings (and other simchas). Specifically, limiting the size of guests (plus assorted other limitations).
I am sure if such takonas would be suggested here, many would say, “Ridiculous!”, “A troll!!”, “They will seek other venues”, “Why not make such takonas on types of cars, housing etc” , “It won’t work because of xyz (fill in blank)” etc.
I am sure many of you can ask strong kashas on these takonos, e.g. what if my immediate family is 600 people, how can I make a wedding with only x number of guests?! what if I am in the jewlery business and it is cheaper for me to give xyz then the trinkets?! Isn’t it hypocritical to limit weddings when people go to pessach resorts and THAT creates social pressure?!
Yes, you can ask a million kashas, but I was taught in seminary a klal: A MILLION KASHAS DOES NOT CHANGE A MITZIYOUS (facts).
So guess what? To some extent, not only did it work but it was embraced by those communities! And as a bonus, it is being imitated by other communities (with modifications or alternative approaches, e.g “wedding packages” etc)
I presented an idea, it could be modified, it could be altered, but it has the workings of a solution. The principle is actually quite simple: The tzibbur helping the yochid. (Is that ridiculous?! Maybe, but that is how Jews are taught to behave). The implementation is by way of a takona – which btw takonas were used since ancient history, imposing monetary dues on the klal, imposing standards of behaviour and other takanos.
As an Am novon v’chochom, the brightest of you can apply your wisdom to adjust, modify my suggestion, or even suggest a new idea. The intellectually challenged ones that simply say, “That’s ludicrous” (without adding a rational explanation or offering an alternative better suggestion).
Simply to brush off my idea (which is totally workable if modified) indicates that you have no positive feedback. Far better that you remain silent, because by shlogging or namecalling, you do worse then just announcing your intellectual deficiency, because you imply that you either don’t care or have given up on the problem.February 27, 2019 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1686162☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Specifically, limiting the size of guests
That’s a fabulous idea, because the larger guests usually eat much more, so this will cut down the expense of the caterer.February 27, 2019 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1686168
“the way the Halacha works is if, say, Chaim decides marriage is not for him, Beis Din then goes and finds a girl who is willing to marry him. So they speak to Shaindel and she tells them that she’s game to marring Chaim. Beis Din goes back to Chaim and say, “Reb Chaim next month you’ll be marrying Shaindel. Be ready cause you have no choice.”
A month later they marry the lucky couple.”
You omitted the last part:
A month later they divorce… unfortunate for Shaindel.February 27, 2019 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1686174
“Specifically, limiting the size of guests
That’s a fabulous idea, because the larger guests usually eat much more, so this will cut down the expense of the caterer.”
Great idea! But how will we implement it?
Will there be a scale at the entrance? Will you have to send in your weight in advance? Will invitations be sent based on the obvious…? What if the Chasson or immediate family is overweight? What’s the Halacha if they are currently on a strict diet?February 27, 2019 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1686187☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Will there be a scale at the entrance?
No, a tape measure. We wouldn’t want to embarrass guests by weighing them.
Will you have to send in your weight in advance?
No, we wouldn’t want any fraud. Measure by the door.
Will invitations be sent based on the obvious…?
That’s a good idea. Why waste money on invitations to people who won’t be allowed in.
What if the Chasson or immediate family is overweight?
Push off the chasunah until they lose weight. Meanwhile, they can work on making shidduchim.
What’s the Halacha if they are currently on a strict diet?
No exceptions allowed, just like the rest of the takanos. Once you start allowing exceptions, the whole thing falls apart.February 27, 2019 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1686186
Joseph: Unless Reb Chaim is suffering from dementia (which itself is grounds for nullificaiton of a chassanah), if he doesn’t want to marry Shaindel, or Suralah, or Chanalah or whomever, no Beis Din will make him marry. You can fantasize or troll about the theoretical authority of a beis din, but in the real world, we don’t force a marriage on unwilling partners.February 27, 2019 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1686320
A serious topic attracts the “litzonei ha’dor” like bees to honey or flies to dog poop.February 27, 2019 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1686675
Agreed on all, the only issue left – will it be ‘Chazon Ish’ shiur or ‘Rav Chaim Noe’/Shu”A shiur?
If it depends in minhag – will be the Chasson or the guests…February 27, 2019 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1686726
A serious topic attracts the “litzonei ha’dor”
While the topic is serious the solution is way out of reality. How come Tosfos (quoted earlier) couldn’t’ come up with such a tekana?
Rabenu Tam had to be mattir ‘kedusha ketana’ because the shidduch crisis in his days. He could have had Bes- Din force every person to marry…February 27, 2019 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1687231
“about the theoretical authority of a beis din, but in the real world, we don’t force a marriage on unwilling partners.”
It’s Mr. Hadorah versus Halacha.
We follow Halacha.
“A month later they divorce… unfortunate for Shaindel.”
GAON: Beis Din is fully authorized to prevent a husband from divorcing his wife. Especially in such circumstances as we are discussing.February 27, 2019 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1687309
Gaon, “How come Tosfos (quoted earlier) couldn’t’ come up with such a tekana?” That is an unanswerable question. But the same question can be asked about any innovation in Torah (e.g. chiddush of an achron that answers a question from a Rishon), one can (but doesn’t) ask the exact same question, why didn’t earlier doros come up with that?!February 27, 2019 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1687314
Gaon, “the solution is way out of reality”, just like the takonos about wedding (that magically work), just like the edict in Lakewood that no schools open till all students are placed in a school, it’s WAY out there, but it works…if Hillel would have suggested a pruzbul in the CR, he would have been mocked and called a troll. (Ok, I am trolling now).February 28, 2019 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1687366
Try to visualize the shiduch police rounding up all the unmarried singles in town,, dragging them into the shul or Simcha hall, , pairing them up based on some undefined matching criteria and forcibly detaining them until after kiddushin. and shevah barachos. were completed when. the dazed couples were sent home to begin their lives together. Sound like something out of the made up horror show called joseph’s purim spielFebruary 28, 2019 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1687398
Actually, Gadol, it sounds like a Midrash about Malkat Sheva matching up her servants in response to Shlomo Hamelech’s statement that Hashem makes shidduchim….February 28, 2019 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1687367
Try to visualize the shiduch police rounding up all the unmarried singles in town,, dragging them into the shul or Simcha hall, , pairing them up based on some undefined matching criteria and forcibly detaining them until after kiddushin. and shevah barachos. were completed when. the dazed couples were sent home to begin their lives together. Sound like something out of the made up horror show called joseph’s purim spielFebruary 28, 2019 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1687404
Say your proposal was implemented. Let’s look at a hypothetical grade of 50 BY girls who just came home from seminary and are now following your takana. (sorry, this is going to be long)
The exceptions clause:
1. Sheindy has medical issues that will make it very hard for her to get married. She goes to the vaad and gets an exemption that the class does not have to wait for her. Chaya has emotional issues stemming from her dysfunctional family life, and will need extensive therapy for many years before she can have a healthy relationship. She too gets the exemption. Rocheli was abused as a child and does not feel ready to be married. She goes to the Vaad too. Now the Vaad puts out a list of the singles that the class need not wait for- and everyone knows that these girls who until now kept their issues private and discreet, have serious problems. They stop going to public events because they are embarrassed by the pitying stares and murmurings about what their issues may be. And when they do work out their issues, if possible, their chance of getting married is about 0.
2. Dina also has some issues that makes her feel not ready to get married. But seeing what her 3 friends have gone thru, she dare not approach the Vaad for her own exemption.
Everyone else should be able to get married now, as long as their friends make sure to make their shidduchim.
10 girls get engaged the year back from Sem. Another 15 the following year, and another 10 the next year. So 35 of the class are engaged by 21. They are all busy trying to set up their remaining friends, which moves things along nicely for most of the class. Another 5 get engaged the following year.
1. Yocheved gets engaged to a guy from a more modern background, which fits her perfectly. Problem is that the guys in his circles are not appropriate for her other classmates who are more yeshivish, and as much effort as they put into it, their suggestions are turned down as not appropriate.
2. Yael gets engaged to Moshe. She wants to set up Moshe’s chavrusa, Shimon, with one of her friends, but Moshe insists that he is better for his neighbor’s daughter, Shifra, who went to a different school. Yael agrees that Shifra is probably better suited for Shimon, but her idea wins since they both want to get married as quickly as possible. The shidduch does not work out, and then they try to set him up with 3 more of Yael’s classmates. By then, Shimon is reluctant to take any more suggestions from Moshe since they have been so off. It takes another 3 years before someone else thinks of the idea and Shimon and Shifra get engaged.
3. Penina gets engaged to a much older guy whose friends are all married already. Try as they might, they have no one to set up Penina’s friends with.
4. Mindy is a very shy, introverted girl who most people forget about. After some struggling, she gets engaged to Dovi, who is very much like her. They are very happy together, but because of their limited social skills and class connections, they just can’t make a shidduch.
Meanwhile, despite the takana and the classmates good intentions, some just don’t get engaged quickly:
1. Esther’s Bshert is 3 years younger than her and does not start to date until he is 22. It takes them a year to find each other, which means she does not get engaged until she is 26.
2. Rena’s Bshert is Danny. In college Danny begins to think about the significance of being Jewish, after graduation he goes off to E”Y to learn in a BT yeshiva for 3 years, then moves on to a more mainstream yeshiva. After 2 years, he is ready to date. He meets Rena when she is 28.
3. Leah’s Bshert, Asher, married the wrong person (the couple felt pressured by the new takana and got engaged even though they both had some serious doubts). After 6 years, much of it in marital counseling, the couple finally realized there was nothing they could do to save their marriage and they got divorced. Asher spent 2 years in counseling before he could think about marrying again. He married Leah, who was then 31.
4. Malky is waiting for her older sister Chana to get married first (she graduated before the takana was instituted). Her parents are insistent that no one in the family skip her. Chana finally gets engaged when Malky is 23, and then Malky starts to go out and gets engaged 6 months later.
5. Batsheva is the cream of the class, pretty, talented, smart, a GREAT girl. Everyone tries to set her up. But none of the guys are good enough for her, and it takes 5 years until she finds the TOP boy to marry.
6. Tova wants to marry a learner and live a kollel life, but her family has no means to offer support. After speaking with her parents and their Rav, they feel she should first get a degree in a good field so she can support her husband before she starts to date. Even with her sem credits and an accelarated program, she will only start to date at 22. While she feels this unusual move is right for her, she will be putting her whole class on hold, and this is another factor she need to think of in what should be a personal decision.
And among the happy 40. who are engaged and waiting for the rest…
Yossy, Reuvein, Shraga and Mutty just can’t wait any longer. They break their engagements and find shidduchim with older girls whose classed graduated before the takana took effect. They get married right away.
Ahuva and Aharon start to argue and get cold feet and break up. Same with Gila and Gershon.
Temima and Tuvya, and Devora and Dovid realize that they only got engaged because of the class pressure and break their engagements as well. B”H they had not gotten married yet…
Levi is very frustrated, and just can’t concentrate on his learning anymore. He also starts to question the system and the Rabbanim who made such a mess of his life. He leave Yeshiva, goes to college, ends up going OTD and obviously, his kalla Liora is left behind as well.
3 other couples just can’t wait any longer and decide to defy the takana. They move to E”Y and get married there.
Brocha and Binyomin are also frustrated. Brocha’s father, who just donated a whole bunch of money to the yeshiva, the girls’ school and the local shuls, gets a special dispensation from the Vaad for them to marry now.
Dassy and Miriam convince their parents to go into debt so they too can “acquire” such a dispensation, but it doesn’t work for them. There is a lot of grumbling in the class and resentment, towards Brocha, the 3 couples who defied the takana, and of course, the ones who are not yet engaged. The Vaad does not make the class wait for those 9 girls with broken engagements who need to find new shidduchim.
Shiddiuch crisis solved!!!February 28, 2019 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1687484
Winnie, how is it that you give a detailed response to a non-serious extra-halachic suggestions of Mr. Rebbetzin yet leave unaddressed my serious and very much halachic suggestion?February 28, 2019 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1687521
Winnie, how many of your hypotheticals apply also to students not placed in schools because of their “issues” (such as students that need special ed or emotionally unstable for formal schooling or deaf or blind etc)?
Your arguments could equally work against the “all students are placed in a school or no school opens”, and I honestly don’t know “the how” that the edict in Lakewood worked to deal with such situations, but, guess what, IT DID!!
I modified my suggestion from the original “no chuppah till all girls of class engaged (subject to exemptions)” to “every chosson kallah must make another shidduch before their chuppah”. The Rov can be shown that they made sincere hishtadlus but were not matzliach to fruition, which would be acceptable.
So what’s wrong (actually, what is right) with a takona that each engaged couple must make another shidduch (or at least present proof to the mesader kuddushin of their hishtadlus)?
One hypothetical you raised: A girl that gets engaged to someone from a different “type”, (example Modern Orthodox or from a different chassidus), in today’s worls, everyone knows people that know other people…(the MO might have only MO friends but might be neighbours with someone suitable, might meet in business soneone suitable, might have relatives that know someone suitable etc).
This takona would benefit everyone, including the chosson kallah, as they are going to the chuppah with the tremendous zchus that they helped build another bayis ne’eman b’yisroel and knowing that they prepared for their wedding with more substatial things that the style of gown and color scheme..February 28, 2019 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1687543
Mrs Joseph, do I read kina (jealousy) in your comment?!February 28, 2019 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1687652
Mrs. Josephus, Jealousy is a complex emotion that encompasses feelings ranging from fear of abandonment to rage and humiliation. It is most typically aroused when a person perceives a threat to a valued relationship from a third party. The threat may be real or imagined. Jealousy is distinguished from envy in that jealousy always involves a third party seen as a rival for affection. Envy occurs between two people and is best summed up as “I want what you have.”February 28, 2019 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1687693👑RebYidd23Participant
Takanos work because people don’t care enough to fight city hall.February 28, 2019 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1687720
Rebbitzin, your back-up solution is one up for discussion. Having the condition be to make a shidduch or show effort to do so in general, and not limiting it to just to getting their own class married will be much more productive as my hypothetical cases shows.
But again, you have to realize that some people are good at making shidduchim and have a lot of siyata dishmaya, and others are not. Also, shidduchim can take time to come to completion- and engagements should not be longer than necessary. The couple can take a kabala on themselves to try, and show their effort. But I doubt every couple will be able to pull off a successful shidduch, even if given a year or 2 to do so after their wedding.
I have another suggestion that might be more practical, and still accomplish what you want- which is that couples should care and try to help those “left behind”. Each class should set up a database with every girl, her details and what she is looking for. As girls get engaged, they should get info from their chassanim on the single boys that they know and enter them in the database. There would be a programmer/database manager as well as an actual shadchan who would make the matches through the database. These would receive some salary for their work from a fund set up by each couple who gets engaged- perhaps they could use the masser money from their chasanu presents if they don’t have other funds, or make it some % of the total wedding expenses. This is something positive they can do to help others with shidduchim without being penalized for other people’s personal decisions.February 28, 2019 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1687740
What an excellent idea!
Much better than mine!!
SEE (to the leitzonei ha’dor and those that say ridiculous, which really means “it’s hopeless – there is no solution”), we are an Am Novon V’chochom.
Once we get the thinking caps on, we CAN come up with a creative, workable solution.
Now how do we implement it?
The pool is open!February 28, 2019 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1687726
Rebbitzen, the school situation is not the same – I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think that the issue was girls who needed special schools or were not fit for formal schooling who did not get into the mainstream BY High schools. I don’t think they were part of this pool at all. Getting everyone in to school is something that can be taken care of in a matter of days or at most weeks, if people have the will. How can you compare girls missing out on a few weeks of school to couples waiting to get married for 10 years?
And Joseph, the reason I did not reply to you I think is obvious. No current Beis Din is forcing all the single 30-40-50 year old men to get married, so the Halacha L’maaseh is not as you make it out to be. My opinion on the matter is moot.February 28, 2019 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1687746👑RebYidd23Participant
Actually, children love missing school as long as they’re not the only ones left out.February 28, 2019 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1687772
“Winnie, how is it that you give a detailed response to a non-serious extra-halachic suggestions of Mr. Rebbetzin yet leave unaddressed my serious and very much halachic suggestion?”
I think WTP basically said what I told you earlier in one nutshell:
“You omitted the last part:
A month later they divorce… unfortunate for Shaindel.”
As for your BesDin taynah. No bes din has any power to be gozar any such tekanos. Same goes to Rebetzin, Marrying is a mitzvah dOraisa and in most cases the chasson is above the age of 21 so EVERY day that it is postponed (once one is ready) for no legit reason is sort of an issur…February 28, 2019 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1687781
“Gaon, “How come Tosfos (quoted earlier) couldn’t’ come up with such a tekana?” That is an unanswerable question. But the same question can be asked about any innovation in Torah (e.g. chiddush of an achron that answers a question from a Rishon), one can (but doesn’t) ask the exact same question, why didn’t earlier doros come up with that?!”
Sorry, but you are technically wrong; you will always find proof and refutes like that in Achronim, “so how come Tosfos didn’t answer like so and so” !? Usually when an Achron will say another tirutz it will be with the hakdamah of “lulai divrei tosfos” and will (almost) never be leHalacha.
That’s a kalal, especially when dealing with some simple solution like Jo and you have..
R Gershom came up with the most exploding tekanos in his times and no one ever tried that…?
“If Hillel would have suggested a pruzbul in the CR, he would have been mocked and called a troll. (Ok, I am trolling now).”
Yes, you are aware that only someone like Hillel has the power to impose such tekanos,
It goes back to the old klal (despite Josephs dreams) : “we do not have the power to be Gozer any new gezeros.”February 28, 2019 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1687911
1. I already answered your very poor point about the husband attempting to divorce his new wife.
2. You are arguing against the Halacha according to the collective wisdom of Chazal, the Rishonim and the Mechaber.
3. See my most recent comment to Winnie about the Beis Din.
4. Your comments are very simplistic and have neither the complexity not depth required to make major Klal decisions. You also have a tendency to put words in other people’s mouths.February 28, 2019 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1687900
“No current Beis Din is forcing all the single 30-40-50 year old men to get married, so the Halacha L’maaseh is not as you make it out to be. My opinion on the matter is moot.”
Winnie, no Beis Din is forcing people to eat kosher, put on Tefilin or give a Gett when halachicly mandated either. That’s because unfortunately Beis Din doesn’t have power today. A few hundred years ago in Europe and in the Levant our butei dinim DID enforce Halacha, as they should. The Halacha L’Maaisa certainly IS how I make it out to be, even if we don’t have the ability to enforce it.
That said, most frum Yidden WANT to keep Halacha. That’s why they eat kosher, wear Tefilin and give a Gett when required even if Beis Din won’t force them to. Unfortunately many people don’t always know what they’re halachicly obligated to do. Beis Din telling them will clarify it for them.
So too if the Halacha is that they MUST get married, and Beis Din so orders them, they WILL get married knowing they are halachicly required to as ordered by Beis Din, even if they don’t want to.February 28, 2019 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1687928
“You are arguing against the Halacha according to the collective wisdom of Chazal, the Rishonim and the Mechaber.”
Name the source please. I named a source in tosfos.
” I already answered your very poor point about the husband attempting to divorce his new wife.”
My point was that if a marriage is forced it will most likely end up with :
כִּי יִקַּח אִישׁ אִשָּׁה וּבְעָלָהּ, וְהָיָה אִם לֹא תִמְצָא חֵן בְּעֵינָיו – כִּי מָצָא בָהּ עֶרְוַת דָּבָר, וְכָתַב לָהּ סֵפֶר כְּרִיתֻת וְנָתַן בְּיָדָהּ וְשִׁלְּחָהּ מִבֵּיתוֹ.
The only way it can be prevented is if the woman refuses. But in this case, both will want out.
“Your comments are very simplistic and have neither the complexity not depth required to make major Klal decisions. ”
You remind me of a one liner said by the אור שמח.
Someone was trying to convince Rav Meir Simcha ztl a certain chidush which he totally dismissed. The mechadesh being upset confronted him: היתכן you are not accepting my chiddush, you did not even שלאג it אפ!
On that the או”ש replied
(a play in yiddish words
עס איז צוגישלאגן – דארף מין אפשלאגן אויב
אויב עס איז ניט צוגשלאגן – דארף מען ניט אפשלאגןFebruary 28, 2019 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1687931justme22Participant
Or we can just start polygamy again lol
I actually think the only solutions to the “shiduch crisis” come by looking at each case individually. What can this girl ( or boy) do differently to get married ,. What else does this boy or girl need help with emotionally etc maybe the single boy or girl is not been clear on what they are looking for or are not been honest about where they are holding in religion etc
There is a reason why while there is a “shiduch crisis “ some get married and some don’t.
Just like in a good or bad economy some prosper and some don’t, of course a good economy help not having a crisis would help but the crisis are mostly within the individual
I’m not judging them I’m saying they might need different help
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