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- This topic has 85 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by Reb Eliezer.
December 1, 2021 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2036659DBSParticipant
A big challenge to Roe v Wade is in the supreme court right now.
Daven that SCOTUS will come to the right decision and we’ll have less babies murdered.December 1, 2021 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2036772
There is an difference in this when viability starts. For Jews only at birth as the Chezkuni in Parashas
Mishpatim (21,22) explains that he is only monetarily responsible on killing a fetus. Death comes through heavenly judgement. The Maharsha explains that Pharaoh went to Jewish midwives and not to mitzryim because they would be responsible for murder. So by the goyim viability is at conception.December 1, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #2036773
Because the law created by people, is what matters. What the reality is in Hashem’s world has no relevance to what our views are.December 1, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #2036781
Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances except when the life of the mother is at serious risk.December 1, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2036796
RE -“There is an difference in this when viability starts. For Jews only at birth as the Chezkuni, etc.”
What about Goyim?
SCOTUS mainly applies to them.
Did you skip that Gemorrah because it doesn’t Jive your Liberalism?!?December 1, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2036797MDGParticipant
Your proofs are inconclusive.
There is a difference between what happens and what one can claim in court.
In the dor hamabul, for example, they stole less than a pruta. That still is theft done by thieves, but not claimable in court.December 1, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2036798
“and we’ll have less babies murdered.”
Its doubtful that will happen.
IT will just make it harder for people who need/want abortions to get them, *That may be a good thing, but unlikely that there will be less abortions .
“blue” states will all allow abortions, All that will happen is those in “Red states” will go to blue states to get them or get illegal ones.December 1, 2021 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2036800MDGParticipant
“The Maharsha explains that Pharaoh went to Jewish midwives and not to mitzryim because they would be responsible for murder. So by the goyim viability is at conception”
Maybe Paroh did not want Hashem to punish him, so he just someone else to do the dirty work.
Paroh clearly feared Hashem’s punishment, as tried to avoid it by being Wiley with how he killed the baby boys.December 1, 2021 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2036809
If that would happen, what is your plan for coping with all the crack babies?December 1, 2021 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2036872
N0m: Why do you want to abort crack babies?December 1, 2021 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #2036859akupermaParticipant
It probably won’t have that much of an impact on babies getting killed, since rather than hold that the 14th amendment bans abortion (to protect the rights of unborn citizens), they will hold that it is a matter for the states (under the 10th amendment). Since nothing would stop women in pro-life states from going to pro-abortion states, and since most abortions at very early and are increasingly non-surgical (done with, as has been the case for all abortions until modern times), it won’t have that big an impact. Potentially it could mean that in states like New York, infanticide might be legalized while in many “red” states abortion will be limited to situations where the mother’s life is in danger (meaning a woman in those states will have to come to New York, in the immediate pre-Roe period, travel agencies offered combination abortions/Broadway plays for out of state women seeking New York abortions).
Whether we want the 14th amendment weakened and the 10th amended strengthened is a new issue. If you trust your local government (mayors, governors, etc.) to be friendly, you favor a strong 10th, but if you don’t trust your local leaders, then a strong 14th is good for our community (even if it results in goyim able to killing their own kids).December 1, 2021 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2036840
Ubiq: Abortion should be illegalized at the federal level. Perhaps the conservative supreme court can find a constitutional right for a fetus to be born. Or Congress pass a law.December 1, 2021 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2036812
Reb E, halacha considers abortion murder for yidden. There is talk if there’s a difference before 40 days(the time chazal say the neshoma enters the body), and for goyim it would be at any age. But even for goyim, an uber has to be called an uber, which is somewhat subjective and therefore conception is a good place to stop. Goyim often use the line of “it’s not a baby, it looks like a fish”, and they say that the burden of proof of what’s considered alive falls on us who wish to forbid. That argument is not only evil, vut very unintelligent – they’re saying you can kill as long as it’s not proven if something is alive, instead of not killing as long as you cannot prove that it’s not alive. It’s like if someone tells you that there’s a sleeping person aside 10 dead bodies, but you have no idea who’s alive and who’s dead. Abortion logic would be you can stab any of them because “who says this one is alive?”. No. You need to prove that the subject is NOT alive to allow anything.December 1, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2036892
N0mesorah didn’t say that he wanted to abort crack babies . He asked you when are you going tell your republican representatives that they must financially and physically take care of all of them for life since the mother does not want them?December 1, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2036893
I’m not advocating for abortions. I’m just asking you to include the social consequences.December 1, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2036894GadolhadorahParticipant
Interesting that CJ Roberts floated several “middle ground” positions on “viability” et. al. that would avoid having to reverse RvW hoping that either Kavanaugh or Barrett would bite but neither seemed interested. Alito, Thomas piled on and said only real options were to reverse or affirm. Goresuch was a bit of a enigma based on his questioning of the SG.December 1, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2036895
As an aside, I think this post is based on a mistake. The case I’m aware of, is if the fifth circuit is forced to issue a stay on abortions, while it considers taking on the Texas law, Even if the SCOTUS does not rule for a stay, the law itself will still be in court.December 1, 2021 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2036896
this case is not about abortion. it is about the future of the justice system. Is it to uphold society, or to make sure there is enough ‘process’ and ‘jurisdiction’ so that all lawyers get paid?December 1, 2021 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2036935
I would like adoption to become more prevalent offering money to bring the child to terms or get a surrogate early. I adopted and converted my two children.December 1, 2021 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #2036934
RE -“For Jews only at birth as the Chezkuni in Parashas
Mishpatim (21,22) explains that he is only monetarily responsible on killing a fetus. Death comes through heavenly judgement”
Why didn’t you quote the other Shittos?
By Yidden – it’s a 5 way argument about Abortions!December 1, 2021 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #2036933
I don’t see how social considerations factor in to a discussion of murder – if something is murder, it is unequivocally forbidden, and jf it’s not, what’s wrong? This is why the 90s line of “safe, legal and rare” fell into women celebrating the murder of their children on tiktok dance videos, because it’s mima nafshach…if it’s not murder, then do it all you want! And if it is murder, then the only justification would be in situations where murder is acceptable.December 1, 2021 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2036932
Ubiq -“and we’ll have less babies murdered.”
“Its doubtful that will happen”
It will happen in Red states, because the poor people who Rely on Medicaid to finance their abortions won’t get them!
As it is, State Medicaid doesn’t usually pay for out of State medical costs.December 1, 2021 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #2036946GadolhadorahParticipant
Today’s case IS the Mississippi case on 15 week “viability”. Case was clearly teed up to challenge RVW 15 week threshold. Texas law is more interesting although not yet before SCOTUS. Issue in Texas is more related to their procedure of delegating enforcement to third parties so there is no “state actor” to sue. Same strategy arguably could be applied by Blue states to 2nd Amendment rules et al which has resulted in even Conservative judges questioning the Texas law on procedural rather than substantive grounds.December 1, 2021 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #2036948hujuParticipant
The first 22 posts constitute the most uninformed, incoherent discussion I have ever read on YWN. Nobody got the Halacha right, nobody got the US Constitution right. Even the grammar and punctuation were awful.December 1, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2036972
huju: If you want to comment on the constitution, we can respect your views and opinion. But please do spare us your uninformed and flawed comments on Halacha.December 1, 2021 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2036968
“we’ll have less babies murdered.”
Fetuses are not bables and the Torah does not call abortion murder.December 1, 2021 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #2036967
“if something is murder, it is unequivocally forbidden, and jf it’s not, what’s wrong?”
Thare are homicides that are wrong but aren’t murder. And by your argument, since there are abortions that aren’t just permitted but are actually mandated, there is nothing wrong with abortion at all. Judaism does not teach that.December 1, 2021 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #2036966
“Why didn’t you quote the other Shittos?”
There are other shittos other than a clear statement in HaShem’s Torah? What religion do you practice?December 1, 2021 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #2036965
Right, because omitting the daas yochid of the tzitz Eliezer is “not getting the halacha right”. He wasn’t rav Moshe, not anywhere close. Rav Moshe and everyone else in his league unanimously, unequivocally forbade abortion in circumstances when the mother’s life is not in danger.December 1, 2021 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #2036960
“Ubiq: Abortion should be illegalized at the federal level. ”
Mazel tov, it won’t happen though . you can wish for whatever you like of course .
Even if Congress tried to pass such a law, it is a tough argument that the federal government has a right to make it illegal given the 10th amendment as akuperma pointed out.
“It’s like if someone tells you that there’s a sleeping person aside 10 dead bodies, ”
no its not like that, its like you telling me I cant , I don’t know take methotrexate because I have a living person inside me. What ? prove it thats bizzare a living person inside me I never heard of such a thing how did it get there? You woudl have to prove somehting so outlandish to try to control what I do (Om a male btw)
You have a chidush that this “clump of cells” (at least at some point in its development) that is totally dependent on its mother for survivial is morally a life. That is a chidush. Prove it.
(to be clear I’m not actually asking you to prove it, I’m pointing out that your simplistic approach doesn’t hold up to mild scrutiny)
“I don’t see how social considerations factor in to a discussion of murder”
Abortion is clearly not black and white murder. Halacha has a very complicated and nuanced approach some poskim take viability into account, some consider the mother’s mental health, some are meikil before 40 days, soem differntiate between Jew and goy. None of these are relevant in murder (As you sort of point out) Yet many factor them in with abortion. So you come up with some halahcic gedr its sort of murder, its not murder at all but we have no right on our bodies generally speaking. Whatever halachic justification you make, ok so make a similar “moral” or secular one.
“It will happen in Red states, because the poor people who Rely on Medicaid to finance their abortions won’t get them!”
As it is Medicaid funds rarely cover abortions, and don’t worry I’m sure planned parenthood would be happy to make up the difference.December 1, 2021 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #2036959
Look at the Tzitz Eliezer Chelek 9, 51 Shaar 3 and Chelek 13, 102 under what condition an abortion can be made. Death might come through heavenly judgement not necessarily.December 1, 2021 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2036997
Ubiq: “Mazel tov, it won’t happen though ”
Congress is unlikely. But the Supreme Court declaring a constitutional right to life is very very conceivable. And that would, effectively, render abortion illegal nationally.December 1, 2021 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2036998yaakov doeParticipant
The crack babies of the 80’s are now parents and even grandparentsDecember 1, 2021 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #2037001ymribiatParticipant
I dont know.
See how easy that was?December 1, 2021 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #2037005
Ubiq -“As it is Medicaid funds rarely cover abortions, and don’t worry I’m sure planned parenthood would be happy to make up the difference.”
And when the Republicans take over the Congress, PP, who gets a lot of their income from them, will be in the Poor House!December 1, 2021 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #2037006
Oh Charlie, – “There are other shittos other than a clear statement in HaShem’s Torah? What religion do you practice?”
Come on – YU never taught you about something called Macklokes?!?
What religion do you practice?!?December 1, 2021 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #2037007
Skrry reb E, the tzitz Eliezer was a posek, but not in the same league as rav moshe – not by a long shot. Rav Moshe was essentially an early achron caliber of gemara learning and psak. There’s a reason why almost everyone was machnia to him.
Ubiq, where do i even start…a baby comes out, so now it’s alive – it has a chazakah dmi’ikara that has to be shown when it was not alive. We don’t say “kill kill kill until you know that it’s a baby”
It’s not “what is this inside me” everyone knows that there’s a baby developingDecember 1, 2021 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #2037008
Charlie, of course there are exceptions to murder, but you’re avoiding the point – those who defended abortion initially had this no man’s land stance that it’s not murder but it’s a little bit murderous, to the point where they said it should be rare, but that position isn’t logical, because if it’s murder, then it should be allowed only when murder is allowed, and if it’s not murder, then you might as well make tik tok dances celebrating itDecember 2, 2021 9:10 am at 9:10 am #2037061
You are looking at this debate as a halachik issue and there should be no exceptions to murder. – except where halacha allows.
However , in America, this is not a halachik debate.
Even the Mississipi law allows abortions before 15 weeks. Why? Can you commit murder on a human being before 15 weeks?
It allows an exception after 15 weeks for severely deformed babies . Can you commit murder on deformed babies after they are born ?
Most states have a rape exception. Can you commit murder on a baby born from rape?
The Mississippi law and all other laws on abortion in America, still allow Halachik murder on its own terms.
American law will never codify the halachik definition of abortion. It will always be inconsistent with it.December 2, 2021 9:13 am at 9:13 am #2037086
“It’s not “what is this inside me” everyone knows that there’s a baby developing”
Yes a baby is developing. Not developed, developing. At what point is this developing baby considered a life.
Halachicly it is clearly a intermediate stage,, it is a “davar shell bo l-olam” you can’t acquire things for it. If it is threatening life it can be killed, yet once born something changes now they are threatening each other.
And you use the term chazaka dimikira. A. That is not how chazaka works chazaka doesn’t tell you things retroactively ot has the chazaka NOW and more importantly b. I’m not Asking you for a halachic reason, I’m familiar with the poskim, including what is followed in practice. My question is from a societal standpoint which is what your argument was addressing. You said if unsure if its a life,, then abortion should be illegal just like killing a person who might be asleep or dedicated is illegal. This is not a halachic argument. As you opened that section ” Goyim often use the line of “it’s not a baby, it looks like a fish”, and they say that the burden of proof of what’s considered alive falls on us who wish to forbid.” Responding to them with a chazaka dmikira (even if used correctly) doesn’t helpDecember 2, 2021 9:13 am at 9:13 am #2037087
There’s a reason why almost everyone was machnia to him (R Moshe)
Not on this issue
But the Supreme Court declaring a constitutional right to life is very very conceivab”
Supreme Court is less likely. Could you 8mafine the right wing outrage if they tried to legislate from the bench (kidding of course). Overthrowing roe would be monumental enough a complete 180 is hard to imagineDecember 2, 2021 9:14 am at 9:14 am #2037089
The Tzitz Eliezer has 21 volumes of Shut at hebrewbooks.org one of the most prominent poskim. It is greater to be matir than to asser כח דהתירא עדיף.December 2, 2021 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2037092
Ignore A in my pending post, you meant chazaka d’hashta (not mikira) meaning NOW it’s alive so we assume over the past 9 months irs alive.
I’m not sure that would work as a generalization meaning “all fetuses are alive” because babies are (which is what you are arguing), particularly as at SOMe point it isn’t alive 40 days? And we are trying to figure out WHEN that changes.
but even if it did work , it’s a religous argument, as explained in B in pending postDecember 2, 2021 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2037095
Look at the Jewish Virtual Library dot org in great detail.December 2, 2021 9:16 am at 9:16 am #2037096
The Tzitz Eliezer saw Reb Moshe’s view and still was matir in certain circumstances.December 2, 2021 10:28 am at 10:28 am #2037146
This Mississippi law proves that Republicans are pro-abortion and want to be able to commit murder against fetuses.
They just want the rules to be more strict than the democrats.
And for this, Jews think the Republicans are paragons of virtue?December 2, 2021 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2037154mesivta bachurParticipant
Reb E, is the Tzitz E a relative of yours?December 2, 2021 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2037172
No, but read his teshuva and see his extensive knowledge. At his laveya they carried his 21 volumes as a tribute.December 2, 2021 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2037200
The velt has accepted Rav Moshe’s Psak on abortion.December 2, 2021 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2037212
In my naivety, can someone explain what the machlokes between R’ Moshe and the Tzitz has to do with American law on Abortion ?
Why is it being discussed on the thread regarding what the SCOTUS is going to do about a Mississippi law that arbitrarily decided that 15 weeks is the latest time to have an abortion? The 15 weeks is not based on science, health or religion.
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