Abortion Decision – Less Retzicha in America
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- This topic has 120 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by ujm.
May 3, 2022 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2082110@tothepointParticipant
Bnei Noach are commanded against Killing. Included in that is abortion, See Rambam Hil’ Melochim Perek 9 Halocha 4.
So this Supposed Supreme Court Decision overturning Roe Vs Wade would be a good thing, fewer Roitzchim in America.May 3, 2022 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2082262
Why is that a good thing? You seem to be stretching the point.May 3, 2022 10:04 am at 10:04 am #2082269
And you completely misread the news.May 3, 2022 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2082283
If overturned, it would be a kiddush Hashem, because at least some states would be able to completely criminalize and prosecute abortion as a crime, since as noted, it’s clear that bnei noach are commanded against abortion. It would be a cultural step in the right direction of lesaken olam bemalchus shakai.
What could be wrong?May 3, 2022 11:36 am at 11:36 am #2082305☕️coffee addictParticipant
Moshe rabbeinu wanted to take a baby out of a wall and it turned out to be a rasha
The people who want to do an abortion won’t raise their kids properly anyways and there will be more criminals in the street
Just my opinionMay 3, 2022 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2082327akupermaParticipant
The “Blue” states will legalize abortion, and will make money from people from “red” states who come for an abortion. I remember 50 years ago seeing advertising from New York abortionists with travel agents to offer a package deal to out of towners combining a good hotel, good restaurants, a Broadway show and an abortion.May 3, 2022 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2082346HaLeiViParticipant
Coffee, worst possible moral ever possible.May 3, 2022 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2082348Amil ZolaParticipant
Women of means will continue to have their abortions.May 3, 2022 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #2082349
The Meharsha says that Pharaoh took Jewish midwifes as by Jews abortion is not assur biblically. The Chezkuni explains that only money is paid as viability comes at birth but by goyim at conception.May 3, 2022 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #2082351
Coffee, we have to keep halacha, so do goyim. Behani kavshei derachmana lama lach; who are we to decide who dies and lives?
Chizkiyahyu was severely punished for refraining from having children after seeing beruach hakodesh that they would be ovdei avodah zara.May 3, 2022 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #2082352
We don’t permit making decision of one’s own body as suicide is forbidden.May 3, 2022 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2082377
We wait for Pidyan Haben for thirty days after birth to be sure that the child is viable but by a goy we don’t go after rov.May 3, 2022 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2082403DaMosheParticipant
I read an article from R’ Tendler zt”l where he quotes a Meiri regarding abortion by Jews. He says that for a Jew to commit such a crime is so terrible that it’s something which beis din can’t issue a punishment that is severe enough. So we don’t give a death sentence if it won’t be a kaparah for the person. Abortion is so bad that even death won’t atone for it.May 3, 2022 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2082415
American concepts of abortion has no comparison in halacha. It doesn’t recognize instances where the baby can be considered a rotzeach for putting the mother’s life in danger. It also doesn’t differentiate between stillborns and ben kayamas, so that under some laws woman may have to carry a dead fetus until labor instead of getting a DNC. Rav Moshe ZT”L said in his teshuvos that we should not fight RvW because if it were overturned, woman may be denied access to life saving medical care.
The first result we would see is people performing the action under cloak and dagger leading to killing more women. Just like people like to say that lack of access to guns doesn’t prevent criminals from getting guns, so too lack of access to abortions doesn’t prevent women from getting them.May 3, 2022 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2082437
Combing abortion clinics is a worse moral.May 3, 2022 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2082439
Yserbius, where does rav moshe supposedly say not to oppose abortion? I’ll believe it when I see it, or when pigs fly , both of which have the same chances of happeningMay 3, 2022 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2082440
Abortion laws that decide who lives and who dies, are far more abhorrent than allowing mothers choices.May 3, 2022 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2082441commonsaychelParticipant
I am a libertarian, so i don’ give a hoot one way or the other, you want, then get one, you dont then dontMay 3, 2022 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2082442
In the nineties the evalangicals started some good programs to notice mothers to maintain their pregnancies. And keep the children, or even have them be adopted. All this is in serious jeopardy. Already now, a lot of these initiatives have been stopped because they are not on the right side of the culture wars.
The individual’s discussion of abortion, is more of a religious issue than a matter of State. But the clergy in America became a bunch of worthless political stooges long ago……May 3, 2022 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2082443
“Women of means will continue to have their abortions.”
If we can only stop abortions by women without means, at least we should stop that much. Every one stopped is another one saved.May 3, 2022 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2082446
Yseribus: Your so-called quote of Rav Moshe is boldfaced falsehood.May 3, 2022 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2082493
Why can’t they bring it to terms and give it up for adoption, make money on it?May 3, 2022 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2082506
“Abortion laws that decide who lives and who dies, are far more abhorrent than allowing mothers choices”
You really like reduction fallacies. Remove “mothers choice” and insert “voluntary disembowelment and dismemberment of innocent unborn children”
Sounds different, no?May 3, 2022 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #2082516
Same to me. But it’s the same words if it happens because the legislators decide.May 3, 2022 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #2082518
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Because pregnancy is hard. Especially when there is no father around. And everyone spends their money on booze.May 3, 2022 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #2082579
I speak from experience adopting a boy and girl as babies, converting and paying for them. He being 38 and she almost 36. They are married with children. My wife, their adoptive mother passed away 12 years ago.May 3, 2022 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2082568
Pregnancy is hard. Yes, but murder is worse, actually, a lot worse. And halacha says that by goyim it’s 100% murder.
I have no sympathy for women who, 99% of the time due to lack kf self control and irresponsible, immoral choices, wind up saddled with unwanted children.
editedMay 3, 2022 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2082606
As you have been saying on the other topic, the secular world is completely different. Leaving aside stupid partisan culture jihad, this is not a win for any group in this country.May 3, 2022 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2082628Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
While in general we should be assisting the world to keep Noahide laws, I suggest we just stay away from this contentious issue: extreme positions on both sides are against halakha and the country does not seem to be inclined for middle ground right now.
Legally, the decision is a welcome support for federalism. If more issues will devolve to the states, we might stop talking about federal – Presidential and Congress – elections.
Practically speaking, this might reverse the famous “Roe effect” leading to more D- voters in 20 years.May 3, 2022 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #2082637
That’s a bunch of malarkey. Abortion bans will not apply if the mother’s life is at risk. There will certainly be exceptions permitting abortions if the mother will otherwise die.May 3, 2022 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #2082659
@ujm Currently in Texas and Oklahoma, any DNC is treated like an abortion. So if a fetus is not viable, or if a woman’s life is in danger, she still has to jump through a lot of hoops to get the medical care she needs.
@aviradearah I agree that by goyim it’s 99% of the time an issue of lack of self control. But there’s still that 1%.
Rav Moshe considered abortion to be similar to retzicha, but I believe he also did not like the so called “Pro Life” movement since he felt that there are instances where halacha compels a women to get an abortion in cases where Xtian activists would not.
Personally I think that the “Pro Lifers” can learn a thing or two from their compatriots in Eretz Yisroel. The frum anti-abortion activists there are focused very little on legislation and 95% of their efforts and money go to making sure that the baby can be born healthy and raised by a healthy family (either biological or adopted).May 3, 2022 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2082661
Also the Agudah and its Rabbonim has in the past been very openly opposed to some of the more extremist anti-abortion laws, such as the Oklahoma Heartbeat Law.May 4, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2082826☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
@yserbius, we are still waiting for a specific source.
I noticed that when challenged, you changed from “Rav Moshe ZT”L said in his teshuvos that we should not fight RvW” to “I believe he also did not like the so called “Pro Life” movement”
I don’t know if he did or didn’t, but that’s the kind of statement you need to back up.May 4, 2022 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #2082867
It isn’t possible to back up an untruth.May 4, 2022 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2082880jackkParticipant
The Jewish Review,
Abortion and Jewish Law: An Interview with Rabbi Moshe Tendler
Volume 2 , Issue 5 (June, 1989 | Sivan, 5749).
It is online.
Rabbi Tendler: This is a very astute and important question. As you most likely know, the Lubavitcher Rebbe took an approach based on the idea that the seven Noahidic laws are so universal and so categorically imperative on every human being that we, as Jews, have a mitzvah to, so to speak, “push” them and hence, to foster a legal system that would, for example, prevent a Gentile from committing an abortion. There is no doubt that he is 100% correct from a halakhic point of view. It is a mitzvah for the Jew to encourage the Gentile to perform his mitzvot. It is forbidden for a Jew to mislead a non- Jew into sin. We derive this from the Torah: “Do not place a stumbling block before the blind.” It is hard to second guess the Rebbe either halakhically or politically. This is, of course, an issue of public welfare, and the question is whether or not the public welfare is served by legislation banning abortion. Here, I think, I could see two opinions. My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin to expand its role in this area and start legislating what is proper to teach and what is proper to do in a religious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government’s total involvement in the religious life of the Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don’t know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don’t want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opinion and Rabbi Feinstein’s opinion, but I lean in the direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.May 4, 2022 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2082882
@daas-yochid It’s something I’ve heard b’shmo from multiple sources. I thought it was in his teshuvos, but I’m not certain and I don’t have an Iggros Moshe in front of me. Please respond to the rest of my comment instead of nitpicking on the one thing I admit to not being 100% convinced about.May 4, 2022 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2082885ubiquitinParticipant
“Abortion bans will not apply if the mother’s life is at risk. There will certainly be exceptions permitting abortions if the mother will otherwise die.”
I am not sure how you knw that. Many do not believe there should be such exceptions. How are you so sure?
There was a famous case of Savita Halappanavar Who died as a result of being denied an abortion under Irelands’ then restrictive anti-abortion laws. This was in 2013, not all that long ago.
I grant that probably there will be such exceptions. But there are other complicated factors that come into play
What if the risk isn’t due to the pregnancy directly, but rather an extraneous cause (eg Cancer that requires chemo)
Of course you were careful to leave off mental health.
Sure in those cases not all poskim allow it As is true in any area in halacha (Though in practice both are unfortunate necessary and practiced in our community though as I live in NY this will not change with the pending Supreme court decision)
The question is ultimately who should decide what defines “life at t risk” The Government/courts ? OR a Woman’s Rabbi.
I find it a little surprising that people who get nervous at a whiff of government intervention in schools, and want the government to stay out of chinuch (a position I generally agree with) suddenly want more government oversight
To be clear Not trying to convince anyone here. I’ve said this piece many times before. people who don’t know/believe this is happening won’t believe an anonymous online poster. It is easy to dismiss the concerns of a bunch of faceless people who engage in “lack self control and irresponsible, immoral choices,” and lump the other cases in there. There are how many thousands of frum girls living in Say Brooklyn, ask yourself if you really think none of them ever got stuck with an “unwanted child” not due to their own lack of self control but to someone elses’ r”L ? Sure its rare. Very rare. Ok very very rare. But do you really think it hasn’t happened?
What should be done in that case? And more importantly who should decide? A Judge or a Rav?
good to see you
I miss your comments I feel like things have been less interesting (not sure if that is cause or effect of your laying low)May 4, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2082910nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I think it is without question that the DNC is an abortion. Certainly under the radical membership therein.May 4, 2022 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2082921
The source of the prohibition of abortion is Oholos (7,6) and the Rambam permitting it when considering the child a rodaf endangering the mother.May 4, 2022 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #2082943
Aha…. more extrapolation from igros tendler. That’s the “source”.
There’s no way rav Moshe said it. His son in law and grandson-in-law have spread numerous falsehoods in his saintly name.May 4, 2022 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #2082944
Rav moshe (and many other gedolim) were opposed to things like mandating teaching religion in public schools, and other religious issues. Murder is not like that, it’s a basic requirement of the 7 mitzvos which are binding, as is Dinim, the imperative to make laws that enforce the other 6. Tendler would also probably not be in favor of opposing abominable marriages, even though they were the cause of the mabul and would put us all in danger.
Afra lepumei.May 4, 2022 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2082974
Abortion doctors practicing after it is outlawed should be imprisoned for a lengthy term.May 4, 2022 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2082979jackkParticipant
I only quoted part of the article. That is why you got that impression.
If you would read the article, you will fully understand what he was was having an issue with.May 4, 2022 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2082993
@AviraDeArah The correct way of condescendingly sneering at the last chelek of Iggros Moshe is to call it “Iggros Moshe Dovid”. And Rav Reuven and Rav Dovid were also editors on it and signed off on the whole thing. I’m curious what makes you think he would be pro-toevos considering his very harsh words on the subject (“depraved society” were I believe part of it) ten years ago. But Rav Tendler ZT”L is an easier target, so by all means continue.May 4, 2022 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2082994
@AviraDeArah The correct way of condescendingly sneering at the last chelek of Iggros Moshe is to call it “Iggros Moshe Dovid”. And Rav Reuven and Rav Dovid were also editors on it and signed off on the whole thing. I’m curious what makes you think he would be pro-toevos considering his very harsh words on the subject (“depraved society” were I believe part of it) twenty years ago. But Rav Tendler ZT”L is an easier target, so by all means continue.May 4, 2022 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #2083017
If you actually learn the Rambam as much as you quote it, you would know that it is not applicable to this issue.May 4, 2022 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #2083081It is Time for TruthParticipant
Rabbinic Group Rejects Distortion of Jewish View on Fetal Life
Washington, DC, May 3, 2022—Following declarations from partisan Jewish individuals and organizations claiming that restrictions on abortion represent a “specific Christian belief” that would limit the ability of Jews to “practice their religion,” the Coalition for Jewish Values (CJV), issued the following statement:
As stated in the CJV white paper on abortion, “The Jewish Bible identifies human life as a soul placed (breathed) within a body by G-d Himself, with inestimable sanctity and value.” That is the authentic Jewish view, as determined by Rabbinic texts and legal codes stretching back to Sinai. We support Heartbeat Laws and other efforts to distinguish between tragic cases of abortion due to medical necessity, as compared to disregard for fetal life as simply the mother’s “choice.”
Reversing Roe v. Wade would not ban abortion, as alarmists insist—on the contrary, it would restore this policy decision to the hands of the democratic governments of the individual states. We hope that more states will be able to enact reasonable restrictions, and restore America to a posture of valuing all human life.
Coalition for Jewish Values, represents over 2,000 traditional, Orthodox rabbis. A 501(c)3 non-profit, CJV advocates for classical Jewish ideas and standards in matters of American public policy.May 4, 2022 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #2083076It is Time for TruthParticipant
How is it that for years now in Poll after poll as America keeps passing and/or tolerating degenerate court ruling after ruling the world beyond the borders and Beyond syndicated media perceive the US as going down and getting weaker. And precisely when the Court ruling get more better traditional the world perception follows that America has stabilized.
Compared with the relatively conservative mid 80’s the freaking and foaming is small fry
And they will try harder..
If the US comes through with flying colors you will hear a whole different story afterwards..begrudgingly
Even the markets in the longer term will bear that out
Pigeonholed saturated or deceitful fellows
And if subscribing To our Creator in some form will according to your ilk
make the days of a country numbered, putting aside that any study of the past belies that, implies further that you despite your background are Of the wrong people and destinyMay 4, 2022 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2083092
The anti abortion crowd is no more for our Creator than the pro abortion crowd. Hashem owns the truth. He does not need you to lie for him.May 5, 2022 12:21 am at 12:21 am #2083149Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Seems like R Moshe’s position is based on R Tendler’s words and also his general position supporting shul/state separation. Other than CR posters, are there any T’Ch who contradicted R Tendler’s reconstruction of R Moshe’s position?
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