Abortion Decision – Less Retzicha in America
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- This topic has 120 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by ujm.
May 5, 2022 8:33 am at 8:33 am #2083268
“I think it is without question that the DNC is an abortion. Certainly under the radical membership therein.”
It’s a d&c, not dnc. Also not sure what practical relevance it has but it’s called an abortion according to the medical documents even when the fetus was already dead prior to the procedure.May 5, 2022 8:37 am at 8:37 am #2083305
The vast majority of abortions are convenience abortions and it is convenience abortions that the pro baby murder movement is mainly concerned with.
So long as states permit convenience abortions they are tolerating murder of the most gruesome type. Modern Molech worship.
The thought leaders of the abortion movement have already taken the next step and want to murder fully born babies who ‘survived’ their abortions. Barack Obama shr”y for example.
In Ancient Rome unwanted children were left to die after birth as a matter of course. The Rambam writes that through yoshke the western world came closer to the Torah. Sanctity of life is one example. But America is slowly returning towards that depravity.
While there may or may not be reasons to be fearful of restrictions on abortions how one can identify with or promote this culture of Molech worship is beyond me and it is shocking that a person who calls himself a Torah Jew could identify with this depravity.
If the society around us slouches towards Gemorrah as d.p. Moynihan coined the phrase it will cease to be a hospitable place for us to live.
At this point in time the fear of the ‘right’ preventing kiyum haTorah is a joke compared to the ‘left’ which can easily cancel whole sections of the Torah that are clearly not woke.May 5, 2022 8:40 am at 8:40 am #2083315
Anyone who promotes abortion rights is a racist on a genocidal level. The vast majority of abortions have been black babies.
Well more than the million Jewish children murdered in the holocaust.
In fact, Maragaret Sanger, the founder of planned Parenthood specifically promoted abortion to stem black population growth.
So congrats racists. Be proud of yourselves. The Germans don’t hold a candle to your level of genocide.
And all done while convincing your victims and the world that you are actually helping your victims by murdering their babies and miracle of miracles…..they believe it too!!
Not only that you’ve managed to convince the goilems of the world that those who are fighting against the murder of black babies are all racists.
They are pretty stupid racists if you ask me.
I mean, shouldn’t the racists rejoice and promote a practice that has murdered tens of millions of black babies and prevented the blacks from being an even more powerful demographic force in America’s politics?
Why do they insist on fighting against black baby murder? Talk about shooting yourself in the 🦶!!May 5, 2022 9:57 am at 9:57 am #2083344bitul_torahParticipant
@coffeeaddict “Moshe rabbeinu wanted to take a baby out of a wall and it turned out to be a rasha
The people who want to do an abortion won’t raise their kids properly anyways and there will be more criminals in the street
Just my opinion”
So you are saying that you would be okay to walk up to someone who is stealing and kill them cold bloodedly. That’s no different from abortion, assuming that you are correct that every child whose parents wanted to do abortion will turn out to be bad people; that is not true though. Even if half of the people who would have been aborted if legal turned out to be bad people, there is still the other half made up of good people.May 5, 2022 10:15 am at 10:15 am #2083355
“They are pretty stupid racists if you ask me”
Wasn’t asking you But your post was very very funny,so glad you added it
Just So I have this straight. The guys waving swastikas, chanting “Jews will not replace us” who say Blacks are inferior and should be slaves, but opposes abortion, Is less racist than , say a black single woman trying to put herself through school/ work to get ahead in life who is saddled with an unwanted pregnancy ** Is that correct?
* to be clear According to Halacha there is no such Autonomy, like many factes of life there are restrictions on what we (all people for that matter) can do we are not free to eat what we want, wear what we want etc etc, this isnt my view I just find your take on their view amusing
** Not saying that is a valid reason for abortion. Just trying to wrap my head around your take regarding racisimMay 5, 2022 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2083307
Tendlers piece is disingenuous. He is comparing apples and oranges even according to his own words. He quotes R Moshe as being for the separation of church and state. Whatever that means exactly.
The abortion issue is not church and state. Abortion is murder. Period. Maybe we shouldn’t be for banning murder bc hey, where do you draw the line? Doesn’t it bc a religious issue? Please.
There is no way R Moshe would have said that we should not be for non Jews establishing dinnim that uphold the Sheva Mitzvos.
Tendler just creates a machlokes btwn R Moshe and the Lubavitchher Rebbe out of thin air. Shame on him and his overinflated ego.
Besides, RvW is firstly a constitutional issue. It is horrific law.
It created a constitutional right out of thin air sans amendment. Since when did R Moshe get involved in a constitutional issue? If it is overturned depraved states like ny and California will still be wantonly murdering babies. Just the rest of the country will be free to protect the innocent from murder. If anything R Moshe would have an opinion on whether NY or any other state should institute bans on abortion.May 5, 2022 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2083394
Your last comment rasied more questions than your first:
“It created a constitutional right out of thin air sans amendment.”
so not quite. It further expanded a Constitutional right “to privacy” previously upheld in Griswold (1965) preventing laws against married couples buying contraceptives.
Pierce (1925) Stiking down an Oregan law requiring all children attend Public School
Meyer (1923) Preventing laws against teaching foreign languages
Now you can argue that there is no “right to privacy” and that all these cases were wrongly decided, and that the State can legislate all these things. You can’t argue that it was “out of thin air” It was based on decades of precedent.
Do you support overturning all those cases?
“The abortion issue is not church and state. Abortion is murder. Period”
no not period. It is murder based on your interpretation of Halacha, According to some it isnt murder, according to others it is murder for goyim not for Jews (try explaining that to a court)
Imposing your religous view on the rest of the country is church and state issue.
“bc hey, where do you draw the line?”
Lots of choices, can draw at birth (as Teh Rambam says until head leaves) can draw at viability outside the womb, can draw at 40 days . Not sure why being scared of where to draw the line is a reason to ban all cases.
No driving cars! Driving to fast is deadly! where would we draw the line as to how fast is safe. Ban them all/. I don’t get itMay 5, 2022 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2083396
“say a black single woman trying to put herself through school/ work to get ahead in life who is saddled with an unwanted pregnancy”
…without realizing in advance the physical and emotional toll that a pregnancy itself does to a women or she likely would’ve worked harder to prevent it.
Blacks are also more at risk of dying from certain pregnancy complications.May 5, 2022 11:37 am at 11:37 am #2083412
My initial list re tendler was a little over the top; I’ll rephrase.
Tendler backed banning metzitzah bepeh. He has no problem getting the government involved when it’s something he wants done. When it’s something that doesn’t bother him much, such as abortion, he gives the slippery slope argument that it will lead to the govt interfering with mitzvos….like milah.May 5, 2022 11:45 am at 11:45 am #2083416
Interject; so a career is more important than a baby’s life?
Black women are biologically more likely to die in child birth? Source? Maybe it’s because they don’t seek health care and have babies at home, which is societal and can be fixed.
In any case, abortions to save the mothers life are extremely, astronomically rare, even for black women. And it’s allowed in every state that bans abortion.
If a woman is old enough to get pregnant she’s old enough to be taught to not do the immoral things that cause it. Her parents must keep an eye on her.May 5, 2022 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2083430MarxistParticipant
“If a woman is old enough to get pregnant she’s old enough to be taught to not do the immoral things that cause it. Her parents must keep an eye on her.”
Of course, parents can keep total watch over their teenage kids from engaging in such things. Especially the ones going to co-ed public schools. And of course all teenagers listen perfectly to their parents. Especially when raging hormones work against what the parents are teaching.May 5, 2022 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #2083440
“Interject; so a career is more important than a baby’s life?”
I didn’t say that. I said that the physical and emotional toll on a woman can sometimes be too much to bear and if she would’ve realized that then she probably would’ve prevented it.
” Black women are biologically more likely to die in child birth? Source? Maybe it’s because they don’t seek health care and have babies at home, which is societal and can be fixed”
This was pretty racist but I’ll respond anyway. I didn’t say that blacks are more likely to die of childbirth. I said that they are more likely to die of pregnancy complications. They are in fact about triple as likely to die of blood pressure related issues, hemorrhage, pregnancy-induced hypertension, embolism among ither risks. If you need a source, it’s easily verifiable. Just Google it.May 5, 2022 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2083425Shmili_OOngarParticipant
You say that since the people getting abortions will have kids involved in crime, is is better to abort.
So tell me, would you walk up to a homeless druggie and shoot him in cold blood? After all, he’s doing the wrong thing, so according to you, he should not be allowed to live.
(also besides for the fact that no matter what you think, abortion is still retzicha and is being oiver the sheva mitzvos bnai Noach)May 5, 2022 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2083442jackkParticipant
The current topic of SCOTUS’s current ruling which possibly will completely reverse the Rowe Vs Wade ruling regarding abortion does not need to be made into a inquisition of Rav MD Tendler Zatsal who is no longer alive.
It so happens to be that the Abortion Teshuva In Igros Moshe in Choshen Mishpat Chelek Sheini was written directly to him.May 5, 2022 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2083459
What about if rape or incest is committed?May 5, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2083466
Doesn’t justify murder – there’s really no middle ground. If something is murder, it’s bad and only can be justified if the baby is a rodef.
If it’s not murder, then go and celebrate it like the idiots on tiktok who make abotion parties r”l, where there are balloons which say instead of “it’s a boy” “it’s a b..ortion”May 5, 2022 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2083486Amil ZolaParticipant
Over the years we’ve seen the abortion rates in the US decrease. Regardless of my personal and religious thoughts on the potential of RvWade being overturned I wonder what life in America will look like once abortions are forbidden. Yup there will be 25+ states where this will be legal, financially not all women will be able to access these services due to basic economics. That being said, lets say that we have only another 1m unwanted children born here in the US annually. Our foster services in most states are drowning in the number of children being cared for. Kids in most states foster care are kicked to the curb with zero resources and no homes or means to support themselves. Are we prepared to direct public funds to orphanages? To fixing the broken foster care system?
What will this new world look like?May 5, 2022 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2083461
Had A smug racist such as yourself in 1835 would have justified slavery bc it saves the incapable blacks from starvation and/or lives of misery and suffering as they’ll never be able to take care of themselves in a respectable way.
Today the argument has migrated to they can’t care for their children so we should encourage them to kill them. This was actually Margaret Sangers actual stated philosophy. You were mechaven to that monsters daas. Yasher koiach. Ubiquitin the Eugenicist. If you are intellectually honest you’ll say the same about mentally retarded fetuses as well . And seriously why stop at the moment of birth? Kill black and other undesirable 2 year olds to save the mothers and themselves from lives of poverty.
Your thought leaders have already been mattir killing babies that survived abortions and have been born. You want to asser that bc it’s a religious distinction – you had to resort (in glaring amhoratzus) to a medieval Spanish Jewish Talmudist to come up w that clearly illogical and clearly religious distinction. Stop injecting religion into the state.
And in the future when the left says you can murder a 2 year old bc he is confining his birthing person to a life of misery you will nod your head and say Amen to that too. Bc whatever shtus de jour is prevalent amongst the smug חכמים בעיניהם חרדיים בעיני קונן you’ll find a way to fall in line.
Sick, sick rishus. No concept of Kedushas haChaim. Totally utilitarian. Even planned Parenthood condemned Sangers racism on their website. But you have even less shame than them. You are not even embarrassed to proclaim that you are a Eugenicist. They at least give some terutz as to how today is different. I guess you haven’t gotten the message that it is no longer woke to be a eugenicist.
Amazing how you will justify the most gruesome murder of babies. And your faux concern for blacks women’s lives could be taken care of by offering the babies up for adoption. In any case you have the same patronizing attitude that I thought was a a relic of the antebellum and Jim crow south: ‘because blacks can’t care for themselves we should make it legal to murder their babies.’May 5, 2022 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #2083501
R Eliezer, yeah, what if? What if the kid is a mamzer? A product niuf? That’s a heter for retzicha for mamzerim? What, bc mamzerim won’t live he’s a treifa? I imagine mamzerim cause mental anguish to the parents as well. Come on.
But your whole heoro is so beside the point. For arguments sake say there are exceptions. For american law halocho is not really the issue. Many people are willing to make these exceptions and it is not the point. You are just using these exceptions to avoid the real issue. The wanton flouting of retzicha. The most basic starting point of any semblance of morality is lo sirtzoch and you poo poo it. How this is acceptable to you that the society you live in should lose this I cannot fathom.
Why do you harp on the יוצאים מן הכלל and bc of this are willing to permit widescale atrocities and would accept living in a society that has no sense of kedushas haChaim, only it’s utility. You are accepting a Sdom like society or a dor hapalagoh like society.
This is clearly not the mindset of a rachmon, bayshan Gomel chessodim.May 5, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2083503
So amil, just kill all of the kids in foster homes. Problem solved.May 5, 2022 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #2083519
your comment seems geared to me “Today the argument has migrated to they can’t care for their children so we should encourage them to kill them. This was actually Margaret Sangers actual stated philosophy. You were mechaven to that monsters daas. Yasher koiach. Ubiquitin the Eugenicist.”
But that isnt what I said. Newsflash MArgaret Sanger is dead. Her views arent relevent .
I noticed you didnt answer my question nor address any of my points
Here is my question again:
Just So I have this straight. The guys waving swastikas, chanting “Jews will not replace us” who say Blacks are inferior and should be slaves, but opposes abortion, Is less racist than , say a black single woman trying to put herself through school/ work to get ahead in life who is saddled with an unwanted pregnancy ** Is that correct?
If you can’t or won’t answer my question thats fine. Just leave me out of your comments .
I don’t understand most of what you wrote as you use “You” and “your” a lot but nothing you said relates t o any of my numerous points I made to you .
Again I don’t expect you to address m actual points, I realzie you are merely repeating Rigth wing talking points, without actually knowing what you re talking about (eg ““It created a constitutional right out of thin air “) this was another winner “because blacks can’t care for themselves we should make it legal to murder their babies” Who is “we…murder”? and why limit to blacks?
But at least a simple question deserves an answer.
Or not, in which case move on
here it is again
Just So I have this straight. The guys waving swastikas, chanting “Jews will not replace us” who say Blacks are inferior and should be slaves, but opposes abortion, Is less racist than , say a black single woman trying to put herself through school/ work to get ahead in life who is saddled with an unwanted pregnancy ** Is that correct?May 5, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2083524Amil ZolaParticipant
BY1212. Thanks for the emotional response and your mis interpretation of my post. I asked an open question, I’m sorry you could not respond to it.May 5, 2022 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2083526
Who cares about how racist something is, and who cares about a murderer wanting to get ahead in life?
Take out mother and insert gangster.
“A young black man joins a gang at 18 to earn money to support his family. In doing so, he begrudgingly has to kill an innocent person here and there…but he’s just a poor black man trying to support himself and his family….”May 5, 2022 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #2083541
“If it’s not murder, then go and celebrate it ”
I don’t understand this. Amputating a leg isn’t murder, does that mean it should be celebrated with balloons?
Why cant something not be murder but still not worthy of celebration?May 5, 2022 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #2083548
“ Interject; so a career is more important than a baby’s life?”
I didn’t say that. I said that the emotional and physical toll on the body is so great that if she would’ve known then she probably would’ve tried harder to prevent it. Everyone experiences pregnancy differently and for some the sensations may be too much to bear.
“Black women are biologically more likely to die in child birth? Source? Maybe it’s because they don’t seek health care and have babies at home, which is societal and can be fixed.”
I didn’t say this. It’s actually pretty racist to say that black woman are more likely to die of an issue that you never heard of because blacks are less likely to seek out medical care. I said that black women are more likely to die from pregnancy complications (and even if a woman is not suffering from complications, the emotional toll that she is at risk of it can add another layer of instability to the pile). If you need a source, it is easily verifiable through google.May 5, 2022 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2083625
Interject; it’s the same with the gangster. He would not have made the decision to join the crips if he knew how it woild hurt his conscience. Does that make his murder ok?
And i stand by what i said regarding celebrations. If the issue is removing something unwanted due to emotion stress that’s no mlre significant than a wart, then why not celebrate? If it’s a life, then it’s murder, and if it’s not a life, whats wrong with throwing a party that now that this clump of flesh js gone i can go to scho, larties, and make it happen all over again!May 5, 2022 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #2083644
There is question if abortion is ratzicha or chabolah. By the goyim everyone agrees it is ratzicha,
but by the Jews there is an argument. So those that hold that it is chabola under certain circumstances are lenient. See https://ph dot yhb dot org dot il/14-09-11/ the Hebrew Wikipedia.May 5, 2022 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2083646
Many of your questions are of the עורבא פרח or גמרא גמור זמורתא תהא variety and deserve no answer.
There is really one main simple point here. And this is why this gets me so upset.
רציחה is so basic a moral imperative that it’s being a ייהרג ואל יעבור does not even require a posuk; a crude svora suffices. But in your subservience to the שטות du jour of the movers and shakers of the preists of modernity you have sunk so low as to not only understand that דמא דידך is not סומק טפי. You make career דידך סומק טפי and quality of life דידך סומק טפי. And what is stated as a curse in the תוכחה regarding נשים רומניות you glorify.
Such depravity from people who identify as Torah Jews is particularly irksome.May 5, 2022 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #2083657
Amil. I answered your question but maybe you need it a bit more spelled out. Murder is murder. In your typical leftist arrogance you’d rather play the I’m smarter than you game than accept simple truths that do not leave room for showing how ‘enlightened’ you are. It’s all games to you. The concept of קדושת החיים grants you no advantage in a oneupmanship battle of wits so it means nothing to you. Shame on you. It is this very arrogance which is why you have accepted the depraved position of supporting mass murder of babies the in first place.
You need to find a way to express yourself to other posters with more respect, or at least less disrespect if you want your posts approved.May 5, 2022 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2083660
Just for the record, נשים רחמניןת refers to eating children who already passed awayMay 5, 2022 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2083664
I wasn’t aware that the סברא to be maikil is bc they say it a חבלה. Not רציחה. If indeed this is this סברא it is an untenable position.
A) the drosho from where it is assur is שפך דם האדם באדם.
The Torah clearly is calling this שפיכות דמים. Nu, so you will taana why does a husband get paid for חבלה? Not a particularly bothersome kashya. An eved who is killed also gives the owner a monetary compensation and there surely is no heter to kill an eved.
B) why do we need to come on to רודף when being mattir when the mothers life is in danger. The simple klal of פיקוח נפש דוחה כל התורה כולה would clearly apply to חבלה. Nor vus, it is רציחה which only has a heter through the unique vehicle of רודף.May 5, 2022 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #2083668
3) we are gozer brothers and sisters of gerim שלא יאמרו even tough in actuality כקטן דמי.
,And now you want to tell me that something actually assur for a goy is muttar a yid? Doesn’t fly.
4) bichlal that something should be classified for a goy a certain. Way and a yid a different way makes no sense על פניו.
5( such a חידוש has to have ironclad sources in שס and poskim. You can’t have a 20th century poisek make up svoras like that.
In any case. Even according to the ציץ אליעזר it is still רציחה. For the non Jews. And as such the moral depravity of the act stands.May 5, 2022 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2083669
You have me mixed up with someone
you said “Anyone who promotes abortion rights is a racist on a genocidal level”
I found that comment funny, and was curious if you meant it, SO I asked a follow up question
You then made a few other untrue statements, which prompted more questions.
If you want to back peddle and say your main point was something else “There is really one main simple point here. And this is why this gets me so upset…” A point that I do not disagree with that’s fine of course. (Though your side issue that you are not defending included some harsh criticism of me ” smug racist such as yourself” “Ubiquitin the Eugenicist” thats the kind of think intellectually honest people would back up or apologize for not just run and say, oh that wasn’t my main point)
Just please don’t make any assumptions about me or my position “And what is stated as a curse in the תוכחה regarding נשים רומניות you glorify.” “Glorify” ? what are you talking about? If you have a question for me I, am happy to answer, elaborate, explain.
If you don’t have a question form me thats fine too, I will bli neder answer this is a topic I find interesting from many directions.
All I ask is don’t stick words into my mouth
(As an aside you’ve thought through this issue so little I find it irksome. The Sevara you mention DOES NOT apply to abortion . We DO say the mother is סומק טפי compared to the fetus, as you may know when a mother’s life is in danger prior to the Fetus being born (I know drawing lines makes you nervous but the Rambam helps, as mentioned (An opinion you dismissed as that of “of a medieval Spanish Jewish Talmudist” one that was “clearly illogical ” R”L !!!)
to be clear obviously that in no way means career is דידך סומק טפי a position I did not endorse, let alone glorify)May 5, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2083677
Just saw the ציץ אליעזר. His main ראיה is that no דין מות for רציחת עובר.
I’m sorry. On this you build a heter for רציחה!?! שרי ליה מריה.. Bc you have a so so kashya – on that you are mattir רציחה?
שרי ליה מריה.
So It it muttar to kill על ידי גרמא under difficult circumstances bc there is no עונש מות על ידי גרמא? Or to kill a טריפה? A טריפה is an exception to מאי חזית? Granted no עונש מות on a טריפה, but that’s not a ראיה for squat. Sorry, this is not a serious argument but rather the argument of someone who thinks he can make up halokho bc he has come up with a שיינא סברא.May 5, 2022 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2083683
As it is assur for a goy, it is assur for a Jew as for a Jew is not more lenient but maybe וחי בהם trumps and under certain circumstances pointed out in the above reference it is mutar.May 5, 2022 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2083695
“I wasn’t aware that the סברא to be maikil is bc they say it a חבלה. Not רציחה. If indeed this is this סברא it is an untenable position.”
Luckily the crises preganncy center in Boro Park doesnt look to you to determine wha tpositions are tenible and what aren’t.
The Maharit says abortion is chavala (he leived pre 20’t century
Chavos Yair says Hotzaas zerah (based on this the Tzitz Eleizer says IF an abortion is require r”l better a woman do it sicn e she has less of an issur Hashcasas zera)
Nishmas Avrhama quotes R’ Shlomo Zalman as saying its stealing
Among other reasons. Relatively few say it is murder.
To be clear NONE of the above are muttar for the sake of convenience nor career.
“bichlal that something should be classified for a goy a certain. Way and a yid a different way makes no sense על פניו.”
Try to be careful how you phrase things .
For a goy abortion might be murder (he is certainly guilty of capital offence) and some assur even to save a mother’s life (Minchas Chinuch)May 5, 2022 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2083693
See the Rav Chezkuni in Shemos (21,22), Parashas Mishpatim, it is considered a viable being when it is born until then it has only has a monetary value. Even when born, we wait thirty days to make a Pidyan Haben.May 5, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2083694jackkParticipant
The Gemara asks: Does it enter your mind that everyone descends to Gehenna? Rather, say: Anyone who descends to Gehenna ultimately ascends, except for three who descend and do not ascend, and these are they: … and one who humiliates another in public; and one who calls another a derogatory name. The Gemara asks with regard to one who calls another a derogatory name: That is identical to one who shames him; why are they listed separately? The Gemara answers: Although the victim grew accustomed to being called that name in place of his name, and he is no longer humiliated by being called that name, since the intent was to insult him, the perpetrator’s punishment is severe.May 5, 2022 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #2083708
ubi, where is the Minchas Chinuch?May 5, 2022 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2083717
והנה בב”נ קי”ל דנהרג על העוברין אם כן אני מסופק בב”נ המקשה לילד אף דלא יצא ראשו אפשר דאסור לחתוך העובר כי הוי נפש ואין דוחין נפש מפני נפש ורודף לא הוי. א”ד דבאמת כיון דחזינן גבי ישראל דלא איקרי נפש רק דגזרה התורה שופך כו’ באדם אבל נפש לא מיקרי שרי להציל עצמו כמו שאר עבירות ול”ש מאי חזית דדמא כו’ דלא אקרי נפש אך לפמש”ל דאסור להציל ב”נ אחר שיעבור עבירה בשביל חבירו אם כן חי’ או רופא עכו”ם הם אסורים לחתוך הוולד בשביל סכנת האם כיון דלא הוי רודף ואסור להם לעבור בשביל הצלת חבירו כנ”ל ואי”ה לקמן בדין רודף נאריך בזה ואין כאן מקומוMay 5, 2022 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2083738Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Re: orphans. As far as I know, Americans are looking far and wide in order to find kids to adopt. Russia even banned giving away their alcohol-ridden children to US at some point …May 5, 2022 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2083745
ubi, thanks but why isn’t it a rodaf? Does halachas of a rodaf apply by a goy?May 5, 2022 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2083747
My daughter was not an orphan when adopted but the mother sold her when born at Maimonides Hospital to an Italian woman.May 5, 2022 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2083746Mheichi TeisiParticipant
Wow @bitul_torah, that statement felt like it was written by a child. Two logical fallacies in the same comment? I’m astounded that you didn’t already get ripped to shreds by the others in the coffee room. On the other hand, ripping apart someone who is clearly a yeshiva Bachur might not be considered something notable.
There are a few things wrong with your statement. First off, an abortion isn’t considered murder my Jews. Rabbi sacks states that the ending of a fetus isn’t killing a person, but killing something that could have turned into a person Sorry, no outside links. Second, since we established that a fetus is different than a homeless person, it’s obvious to say that killing a homeless man is not the same as killing a fetus. Third, abortions are allowed for Jews in some circumstances. Taking away the right to an abortion will negatively impact the lives of many jews who will no longer be able to end a pregnancy that they would be allowed to end under Torah law. Fourth, the downturn in violent crime roughly 16 years after abortion was legalized shows that the world is a safer place with abortion legalized. And fifth, you are assuming that fifty percent of the people will lead good lives. Coming off of the bat, that is a logical fallacy, and the numbers could very well be much lower. Nevertheless, the violent crime statistics show that a large portion of the kids never had the chance to have a good life, and they never did.
You’re probably a yeshiva bachur, so I’m going light on you, but I’d advise you to put a little more research into your opinions.May 5, 2022 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #2083748Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
I am concerned as a couple of posters fashioned to refer to R Moshe’s S-I-L somewhat derogatory. I understand that you might disagree with him on some issues, or even doubt his veracity when quoting his F-I-L, suspecting that he puts a political slant.
I wonder – do you have any factual basis for your attitude:
– do you have evidence that R Moshe did not verify quality of the semicha of the chatan, so you don’t use R-?
– do you have cases, or even a pattern, of other witnesses contradicting R Tendler’s reporting of R Moshe’s words?
Also, keep in mind that people in the family tend to talk differently between each other. It is possible that R Moshe was focusing on the psak when talking to outsiders and revealed more of the underlying reasoning in the family.
Just a sevorah, I do not see a contradiction between a strong position against abortion and a position against government interfering in religious matters. R Moshe had Soviet experience with both murder and religious prosecution, so no doubt he understood policies here – and better than one-issue advocates in US.May 5, 2022 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #2083774
I think the Minchas Chinuch means that not that it is not a rodaf but rodaf is not permitted by a goy as the heter is וחי בהם which does not apply by a goy.May 5, 2022 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #2083778
Rodaf does apply to a Goy (at least by a Rodef to murder someone a Rodef for Arayos, he says it doesnt.
The way I understand the minchas chhinuch is that when the mother’s life is in danger and abortion is allowed it isnt literally becasue the fetus is being rodef the mother, if it where that wouldn’t change at birth. Once the baby’s head is out it is a life/nefesh and if her life is in danger from it we don’t say it is being Rodef rather they are equal. What changed? *
The answer is that it became a nefesh. A fetus is not a nefesh it is not a full fledged life. Now there is still an issur to abort generally but if her life is in danger then like all mitzvos besides three (abortion is not one of them) we violate the issur.
כ”ז שלא יצא ראשו לא הוי נפש ע”כ חותכין אותו להציל האם וכפירש”י שם אף דאסור להרוג העוברין ג”כ כמבואר בדנ”ט בתוס’ שם מכל מקום כל עבירות נדחות מפני סכנות נפשות אך נפש אינו נדחה מחמת הסברא דמ”ח אבל עובר ל”ש מאי חזית כי לא הוי נפש רק דהתורה אסרה כמו איסור אחר אבל לא הוי ש”ד.
Once it is born NOW it is al life and even if it is “pursuing” her killing it aborting?) is assur .
To be fair the Rambam does formulate abortion as being allowed becasue it is rodef (sounds literal, though says “k’rodef”) . On Whcih the Minchas chinuch writes he doesnt understand
וז”ל הר”מ פ”א מה’ רוצח אף זו מצות לא תעשה שלא לחוס על הרודף לפיכך אמרו חכמים האשה שהיתה מקשה לילד מותר לחתוך העובר בין בסם ובין ביד מפני שהוא כרודף יצא ראשו אין נוגעין בו שאין דוחין נפש מפני נפש וזה טבעו של עולם והנה מה שסיים דזה טבעו של עולם היינו תירוץ הש”ס דמשמיא קרדפי לה ע”כ לא הוי רודף. אך מ”ש בתחלת דבריו דאם לא יצא ראשו חותכין מפני שהוא רודף וכתב על הקודם לפיכך משמע מטעם דהוי רודף לא זכיתי להבין דבאמת לא הוי רודף דהא משמיא רדפו לה והא דמותר לחתוך העובר היינו דלא הוי נפש אבל רודף לא הוי ומאי זה שכתב לשון לפיכך דמשמע דהוא מטעם רודף וצ”ע
Now Since the fetus is NOT being rodef he is mesupak if a Goy can commit abortion to save a life, do we say since the yget kiled its a nefesh and cant choose one over the other, or since a Jew is allowed to abort in such a case, it isnt a nefesh. He sides wit hthe tzad that assur
*This isnt my own question, all ask this and many answers are given.May 5, 2022 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #2083787
What is the difference between murder and aroyas when both are assur by a goy and וחי בהם does not apply?May 5, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2083791
What about indirectly by a goy through her taking a medication to kill the fetus thereby saving herself?May 6, 2022 12:45 am at 12:45 am #2083807
Jonathan sacks o.b.m., was not a posek. He was a theologian rabbi speaker person. His statements do not establish anything except his own opinions. They definitely do not determine what is a living thing and what is not
As has been noted, there is a degree of question among achronim as to the status of an uber/fetus. That being said, in practical halacha, the great tzitz eliezer should not be counted together with rav moshe. They were simply in different universes. A psak from the tzitz eliezer when compared to the ineffably vast torah depth and bredth of רשכבה”ג maran rav moshe, is not counted.
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