Adama Veshamayim – Avoda Zara

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  • #1711141

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    The hit song Adama Veshamayim is in fact a Wiccan Avoda Zara chant. It was originally recorded by someone named Tony Wrench for a group named PRANA (the name of a hindu idol). It was called Tall Trees (googling Tony Wrench Prana Tall Trees brings up a remix of the original song – the original doesn’t seem to be on Youtube.)

    The original lyrics include the line “I feel it in my Body and feed it to my source” – a direct reference to Wiccan Avoda Zara worship! (The more recent English versions switched it to “I feel it in my body, I feel it in my soul”).

    While the original frum artist of the song did not know the origins of this song (he seems to have gotten it from an Israeli group called Sagol, who translated the innocuous version to Hebrew and included it on a very-much-not-avoda-zara cd that included many songs praising hashem) the original is most definitely Avoda Zara and should not be played by our simchos.

    #1711246

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It is a dangerous copyright issue as well.

    #1711251

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    RebYidd – I dont think he was worried about copyright because the Israeli artists released it as composed by Amami (I.e., folk song that noone knows who composed.)

    #1711312

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    “Yidden” by MBD was originally a Eurovision winning song about how Ghengis Khan was a prusta menuvel.

    Chabadskers sing the French national anthem as a tisch niggun.

    Some historians say that there are Birchas Kohanim niggunim that come from monks chanting.

    Not sure what the issue is with this song in particular.

    #1711328

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Yserbus, the problem is is that HE DIDNT EVEN CHANGE THE WORDS!

    #1711855

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yserbius, a song which was originally made for avoda zara is actually assur to sing or listen to.

    #1711874

    TheMir
    Participant

    The Yetser Hora is dancing.

    #1711933

    Avi K
    Participant

    In general Rav Moshe was against music. This is a general outlook in some quarters regarding aveiluton the Churban. For lenient opinions see Shut Shoel uMeishiv Mahadura Kama 3:72, Shut Yabia Omer 6 OC 7 and Shut Yehaveh Deah 2:5.

    #1711929

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, many of of our tunes (e.g. the popular one for “Maoz Tzur”) come from church music. On the other hand, some say that the Gregorian chants were stolen from the Bet haMikdash. Rabbi Yisrael Najara also adapted non-Jewish tunes. In any case how is Yeshivishrockstar so knowledgeable about Wiccan music and Hindu avoda zara?

    #1712011

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @DaasYochid Rav Moshe ZT”L seems to be referring to unaltered songs or recordings by an עכו׳ם. He’s certainly not assuring the music itself, but the song and lyrics which are sung for the purpose of Avoda Zora. And if you read the rest of the teshuva, it sounds like he was against pretty much all Jewish pop music, as a lot of Rabbonim were and still are.

    And @yeshivishrockstar, how did you even find this song? It took me a full ten minutes of searching on YouTube to find a single remix, and that’s with the name of the song, singer, and band! I couldn’t even find an original recording or a mention on Google of the lyrics.

    #1712035

    jackk
    Participant

    Rabbi Shay Tahan on Torahanytime.com based on Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek Sheni – Teshuva 111 says that according to Rav Moshe the song adama vshomayim would not be assur but would be mechuar hadavar.

    #1712062

    5ish
    Participant

    Avi K,

    It is not true that the tune for Maoz Tzur is taken from church music. Both Maoz Tzur, and a Lutheran choral are both based on an earlier german folk song. In fact, its use for Maoz Tzur was already popular almost a hundred years before Luther.

    #1712073

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Yserbius, there was a Whatsapp message going around and a news item on Matzav. (Mods, are you allowed to mention Matzav on YWN?). The problem was that the post was referring to a song “Strong Winds, Deep Water” that was recorded almost 10 years after the original Sagol song (as an Israeli the song was familiar to me, but not its origin story – to hear it Google ‘Sagol bandcamp adama veshamayim’ ). So I googled the complete lyrics and found a version called “Tall Trees” sung by Gila Antari who is a Wiccan jew rachmana litzlan (and whose version seems to be influenced by the Israeli version). In the Youtube comments, the wife of the original singer commented on the lyric change, and that directed me to the original song.

    #1712080

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Interestingly, the catchy ayayayayayayayayayayyo high part seems to have been composed by the Israelis and is thus not avoda zara. No earlier version has it, and almost all later versions seem to be influenced by that (and many give a shout out to the Israelis).

    #1712125

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, many of of our tunes (e.g. the popular one for “Maoz Tzur”) come from church music.

    That is a popular myth.

    #1712126

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rabbi Shay Tahan on Torahanytime.com based on Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek Sheni – Teshuva 111 says that according to Rav Moshe the song adama vshomayim would not be assur but would be mechuar hadavar.

    If the lyrics are the same, R Moshe assers mei’ikar hadin.

    Mechuar hadavar is without the lyrics.

    #1712123

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    @DaasYochid Rav Moshe ZT”L seems to be referring to unaltered songs or recordings by an עכו׳ם. He’s certainly not assuring the music itself, but the song and lyrics which are sung for the purpose of Avoda Zora.

    He is assuring even if the purpose of that specific performance is not for avoda zara. He talks about Acher, and presumably his kavana was not for avoda zara, but was not allowed to sing those songs.

    And if you read the rest of the teshuva, it sounds like he was against pretty much all Jewish pop music, as a lot of Rabbonim were and still are.

    That’s not what he is saying, and that’s totally a side point. He rejects that the issur of listening to music after the churban should be why Acher went off, and instead says he sang avoda zara songs.

    #1712144

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And @yeshivishrockstar, how did you even find this song?

    He looked it up on Wiccapedia

    #1712152

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Point of information, prana is not the name of a Hindu idol. It is a Sanskrit word that translates into life force.

    #1712190

    jackk
    Participant

    DaasYachid,

    The lyrics to adama vshomayim are not the original lyrics. Ergo, it is not assur.
    Is that what you meany when you wrote – Yserbius, a song which was originally made for avoda zara is actually assur to sing or listen to?

    #1712205

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Jackk – they are, merely translated into Hebrew and dropping the worst line. It is no different if Amazing Grace, say, was translated to Hebrew. It is still an idolatrous song, no matter how innocuous the lyrics.

    Amil, all the names for the life force, be it Chi, qigong, reiki, or prana, are all Avoda Zara, as they’re designed to worship the world itself over the creator. (Read Rav Belsky’s Alternative Medicine books, for example.)

    #1712239

    balanceisthekey
    Participant

    3 important points:
    1. It can well be said that singing ‘adamah veshamayim…’ today has become a Minhag Yisrael and gets that special halachic status, which would mean that it is automatically valid as long as there is ANY legitimate backing for it–i.e. even if that backing may be a daas yochid, or a sevarah which is more mechudash, as long as it is reasonable–such as:
    2. R’ Ovadiah Yosef (certainly qualifying as at least a daas yochid even for Ashkenazim!) is meikel altogether with ‘transporting nigunnim’ as Avi K quoted above.
    3. It is arguable that even R’ Moshe would agree in this case that its ok–not only because some Jews came along and translated the words into Hebrew with the problematic line being left out, but more significantly because even in the world at large, this song–i.e. the tune and general words–seems to be primarily associated with non-inherently-avodah-zarah-groups, such as Rainbow Gatherings and the like (as evident from the testimonies of those above about the relevant google searches), using the words ‘i feel it in my body, i feel it in my soul” which are very open and ‘pareve’. The original words of ‘i feed it to my source’ (which itself is also somewhat vague) are hardly known and associated anymore with this song, even among the goyim.

    It seems that Klal Yisroel is relying either on R’ Ovadyiah or on this sevarah!

    #1712315

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Rockstar, you may be correct but prana is not the name of a Hindu deity, ergo my point of information.

    #1712344

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R’ Ovadiah Yosef (certainly qualifying as at least a daas yochid even for Ashkenazim!) is meikel altogether with ‘transporting nigunnim’ as Avi K quoted above.

    We’re not discussing transporting stam secular music, we’re discussing avoda zara.

    It is arguable that even R’ Moshe would agree in this case that its ok–not only because some Jews came along and translated the words into Hebrew with the problematic line being left out, but more significantly because even in the world at large, this song–i.e. the tune and general words–seems to be primarily associated with non-inherently-avodah-zarah-groups

    The whole theme is avoda zara, and changing one line doesn’t affect that.

    Rav Moshe writes that even if they no longer sing it, it remains assur, so whatever association people make won’t change the fact that it’s assur.

    #1712349

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The רמ”א says that if a בעל תפלה uses a niggun from a”z, we tell him to stop, and if he doesn’t, we dismiss him.

    #1712357

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    AMil: From wikipedia
    In Hindu philosophy including yoga, Indian medicine and Indian martial arts, prana (प्राण, prāṇa; the Sanskrit word for “life force” or “vital principle”)[1] permeates reality on all levels including inanimate objects.[2] I Five types of prana, collectively known as the five vāyus, are referred to in Hindu texts. Ayurveda, tantra and Tibetan medicine all describe praṇā vāyu as the basic vāyu from which the other vāyus arise.

    It’s a deity.

    #1712364

    jackk
    Participant

    DaasYachid,

    Since you are convinced that even with the change of words it is still avoda zara, can you please explain how these words are avoda zara ?
    adama means earth, shomayim means sky, chom haesh means heat of fire, tzlil hamayim – sound of water.
    None of these are shemos of Avoda Zara.

    #1712407

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The song is about worshipping the earth as a god. All of that is part of it.

    #1712412

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I should clsrify that I never heard any version of the song, I’m just saying what the halacha is assuming the reports of the origins are true.

    This is from a review on Mostly Music:

    SONG BASED AND A COPY OF A IDOL-WORSHIP/PAGAN MUSIC / SONG

    Song and tune is very nice – but just found out and a quick google search confirms it to be true – this song
    the tune AND Words is a totally Pagan
    I.e. Avodah Zora song
    Google the song “strong wind, deep water’ the tune is exact same
    as well as words/chant of Ay ya Ay ya yo etc… and the words are the same thing just in English with some minor variations it was made by pagan earth/nature worshippers.
    so listening to this song can involve
    Some serious issurim….
    It might sound too crazy TB true, but do u want to take that chance ??
    It’s one thing to be based on or same as
    a non-Jewish song it’s another thing entirely to be based on idol-worship

    #1712416

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The nigun is not a’z, after changing the words.

    #1712417

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    For a song to be avoda zara, it does not need to include any names of avoda zara.

    R’ Moshe assers gospel songs with words of Psalms, (i.e. Tehillim) if made by non Jews, since we assume the intent is for avoda zara.

    Even if it were sung wordlessly, it would be mechuar hadavar, and we would dismiss a chazan who insisted on singing it, so why would anyone defend it? In fact, though, if the words remain largely intact and the theme is the same, it should be assur m’dina.

    #1712420

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Laksern – the words weren’t changed, merely translated.

    #1712421

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The nigun is not a’z, after changing the words.

    1) It would still be mechuar (disgusting).

    2) The reports are saying that the words are largely the same. If those reports are true, it would be a”z.

    #1712460

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Kalever famous hungarian song was a popular peasant song. We can be mekadesh the nigunim.

    #1712482

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I’m going to start keeping a score of how many times this thread can go in the same circle:

    The song is assur because it’s A”Z
    But, we’re allowed to “transport niggunim”
    This isn’t a stam niggun, it’s A”Z
    But, we’re allowed to “transport niggunim”
    ……..
    ….
    So far, I’ve counted 4. Not joking.

    #1712471

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Laskern – the words werent changed (not saying its the artist’s fault, it was very popular in Israel and almost noone knew where it came from).

    #1712491

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    I would just like to point out that the chorus line is one of the permutations of the shem Hashem, hay yud hay vav.
    Ayin a nusach sefard siddur by mussaf on rosh chodesh, and you will see how it is one of the permutations.

    I would be wary of saying that line.

    #1712529

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Kalever famous hungarian song was a popular peasant song. We can be mekadesh the nigunim.

    If the source is secular, you can be mekadesh it. If the song comes from a”z, it’s mechuar, and if the lyrics remain, it’s assur.

    #1712537

    Avi K
    Participant

    5ish, are you saying that we go according to the first use? Actually, it was used by the Benedictine monks before becoming a drinking song. Moreover, if it was a German folk tune it probably originated in Teutonic paganism.

    #1712548

    balanceisthekey
    Participant

    To reiterate and clarify what I wrote before:
    –R’ Ovadiah is meikel even when it was used for a”z mamash, he doesn’t go with this Ram”a at all.
    –The words most commonly sung today (even among goyim) as the pivotal punch line are ‘i feel it in my body, i feel it in my soul=ani margish zos begufi, beruchi ve’nishmasi’. These words are not inherently a”z whatsoever, just very open and vague and dependent on the kavanah of the singer–they could be sung with the intent of a”z or of connecting to something very kadosh, as there are plenty of sensitive neshamos–Jewish and goyish–that feel something deep in nature and don’t misconstrue it into a”z, and many if not most of the people who sing this song today–Jewish and goyish–have this kosher kavana in mind, thus making it arguable that even R’ Moshe would be meikel with it, thus being a legitimate basis for the current minhag Yisrael

    #1712549

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    1. It can well be said that singing ‘adamah veshamayim…’ today has become a Minhag Yisrael and gets that special halachic status, which would mean that it is automatically valid as long as there is ANY legitimate backing for it

    Uh, I don’t know how minhag yisroel works. But with that logic, you are saying if enough people do something it’s muttar. So we can make it muttar to do biluy arayos if it’s common? Cuz I think avodah zara and giluy arayos are on the same level, the whole die before you do it type.

    #1712555

    ipchamistabra
    Participant

    Comment on reply #1712357 – yeshivarockstar

    Amil, all the names for the life force, be it Chi, qigong, reiki, or prana, are all Avoda Zara, as they’re designed to worship the world itself over the creator. (Read Rav Belsky’s Alternative Medicine books, for example.)

    AMil: From wikipedia
    In Hindu philosophy including yoga, Indian medicine and Indian martial arts, prana (प्राण, prāṇa; the Sanskrit word for “life force” or “vital principle”)[1] permeates reality on all levels including inanimate objects.[2] I Five types of prana, collectively known as the five vāyus, are referred to in Hindu texts. Ayurveda, tantra and Tibetan medicine all describe praṇā vāyu as the basic vāyu from which the other vāyus arise.

    It’s a deity.
    ———————————————–
    This line of argument is signature of the group that published Rav Belskys thoughts on alternative medicine. How does the final assertion follow from the quote from Wikipedia?

    #1712994

    balanceisthekey
    Participant

    Shopping613–you’re obviously right that minhag yisrael isn’t a freeforall, but you didn’t quote the end of that sentence in which I clarified and qualified the extent of it.

    #1713084

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter what the rest said. Avodah Zara is not allowed. Period.
    Halacha states it would be better to be KILLED and you are looking for a kula?!

    #1713092

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Ipchamistabra TY for saving me the time.

    #1713274

    balanceisthekey
    Participant

    If a great Rav would say this isn’t avodah zara, but rather a pareve and even proper song of connecting to Hashem (if sung with the right intentions like good Yidden do), I hope you wouldn’t have any reservations about embracing it. Minhag Yisrael (within the aforementioned parameters) is a great great Rav.
    Being too meikel is dangerous, and so is being too machmir. The bathwater needs to be clean, but don’t throw out the baby along with it.

    #1713815

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    What great Rav said this is ok?

    #1713823

    balanceisthekey
    Participant

    As stated there in the last post: “Minhag Yisrael (within the aforementioned parameters) is a great great Rav”

    #1713844

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    So which Rav allows Avodah Zara?
    Also I think minhag yisroel is if ALL the leaders of the generation agree on something and it’s really hard to make one nowadays.

    #1713900

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Being too meikel is dangerous, and so is being too machmir. The bathwater needs to be clean, but don’t throw out the baby along with it.”

    We’re talking about possibly being over on avodah zara, and you’re talking about a catchy tune you apparently like. I don’t think there’s any argument for worrying about “being too machmir.” If you have a legitimate source, people would probably hear you out. But, no rabbi in the history of the world (probably not even reform) is going to say that people should just chill out and not take avodah zara so seriously.

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