Admission Cards

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  • #1746910

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    Any school that gets money out of parents using admission cards according to Rav Moshe Feinstein it is stolen money

    #1746919

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Jion the hock Bachurm lets hear your opinion

    #1746918

    Tell me a yeshiva that doesn’t do it.

    #1746929

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Undercove Bachur, can you explain?
    Why would it be considered stealing?

    #1746940

    Joseph
    Participant

    How is it “stolen”?

    #1747649

    adocs
    Participant

    So tuition is now stolen money?

    #1747456

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    That’s the problem
    I am pretty sure Yeshiva of Brooklyn dose not do it

    #1747911

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Undercove,

    My understanding is that an admission card is given to parents when their past accounts are settled.

    Can you please tell us ( a ) if I am wrong (and if so, how), or ( b ) why using this process to ensure the yeshiva receives monies it is entitled to results in the money being stolen?

    Thank you.

    The Wolf

    #1747919

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    As someone whose children have been out of yeshiva for decades and handled tuition by just write check….
    Please explain what an admission card is, and why it might be stealing?
    Thanks

    #1748117

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It is humiliating to the children whose parents are poor, which makes it unjustified. Extortion can be viewed, loosely, as a type of stealing.

    #1748177

    5ish
    Participant

    An admission card is issued when all past tuition debts owed are paid. A student will not be admitted to class at the beginning of the year without this card. I imagine the problem is that according to Halacha, you are not allowed to refuse admission to cheder when parents are unable to pay. The community is supposed to force the rich people to pay for the education of the poor people. (Ramah in Choshain Mishpat (163:3)) With the tuition card system, a poor person who may not be obligated to pay according to Halacha, is forced to pay, which is akin to stealing the money from them. I imagine.

    #1748768

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @5ish
    Thank you for the explanation.
    This system was not used in any of the institutions our children or grandchildren attended/attend.
    #1 it is none of the classroom teacher’s business to know which children have parents who owed money
    #2 at the end of the school year, the scholarship committee and the administrator would have a meeting and go over the amounts still owing (without names revealed). If there was enough funds in the scholarship savings account, money would be transferred to the operating budget to clear all balances.
    #3 The HEAVY HITTERS would be asked to cover the debt, so every family started the year fresh after summer break.
    It’s different ins small communities OOT. Lots of non-frum Jews support the yeshivas/day schools along with all the other Jewish institutions in town.

    #1749102

    #1 it is none of the classroom teacher’s business to know which children have parents who owed money. A wll known girls yeshiva withholds the report card if parents owe tuition. Teacher tells the student the envelope is empty “ask your parents why?
    #2 at the end of the school year, the scholarship committee and the administrator would have a meeting and go over the amounts still owing (without names revealed). If there was enough funds in the scholarship savings account, money would be transferred to the operating budget to clear all balances. (Not in Brooklyn. They know names and amounts.
    #3 The HEAVY HITTERS would be asked to cover the debt, so every family started the year fresh after summer break. In Brooklyn, the hanhalah holds back the registration packet until the balance is paid (or a payment plan is agreed upon).

    #1749135

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    Yeshiva Of Brooklyn

    #1749137

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    Olny money gotten through admission cards

    #1749260

    Undercove Bachur
    Participant

    Admission cards are a terrible תקופה that has been plaguing כלל ישראל in the past recent years. So many of you may be wondering what is admission cards? Allow me to explain.
    Admission cards are a weapon used by school administrations to force parents who have already paid whatever is financially possible and on top of that are financially struggling.
    So this is how they are used: About a week before the exam a member of the school administration (usually the principal) enters the classroom and informs the class that those who have not received an admission card will not be allowed to take the exam. It is quite obvious to many students in the class who will not be able to take the exam and the child is therefore embarrassed ברבים a אסור דאריתא which רשי says is comparable to רוצוך
    The day of the exam arrives and the teachers give out the exam upon instruction from the school administration only to give the exam to those students who show the teacher their admission card. the principle then enters the room and calls out the students BY NAME without admission card to come to his office therby6 embarrassing the child ברבים a אסור דאריתא which רשי says is comparable to רוצוך
    In the office, the principal instructs the children to call their parents and inform them that they are unable to take the exam until tuition is paid in full, so they should call the office and make a payment immediately.
    According to Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l this method is considered stealing. Now you may ask how is it stealing? Now imagine someone walks over to you with a gun and says: give me $100 or I will kill That is considered extortion a type of theft, so too here by using the child as a weapon you are extorting the money from the parents by using their child as a weapon
    רבותי stop this terrible תקופה stop harassing the financially unstable parents as the Ramah in Choshain Mishpat (163:3) says the community is supposed to force the rich people to pay for the education of the poor people.
    Sorrowfully
    Undercover Bachur
    (a boy in a prominent Brooklyn Yeshiva)

    #1749265

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Undercove,

    I ask my question again…

    My understanding is that an admission card is given to parents when their past accounts are settled.

    Can you please tell us ( a ) if I am wrong (and if so, how), or ( b ) why using this process to ensure the yeshiva receives monies it is entitled to results in the money being stolen?

    Can you please answer?

    Thank you.

    The Wolf

    #1753144

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not defending anything here, but you have a problem , the Yeshivas need the tutiton to pay expenses and the parents cannot pay the money. At some point the system is going to collapse unless other sources of funding are found

    #1753483

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @zd
    I am dead set against them, But in the USA School vouchers are the answer to the problem.
    Low income frum families with many children cannot afford to pay sufficient tuition to run the schools.

    Why am I against school vouchers?
    #1 I don’t believe in tax dollars funding private institutions
    #2 Separation of church and state
    #3 Remember the uproar when NYS attempted to set standards and requirements in yeshiva teaching? If yeshivas and day schools take government money (vouchers) regulations and requirements will rear their heads

    #1753499

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Without mentioning names of schools
    A prominent administrator told me, they only withhold cards from parent who won’t speak to the business office, and just make believe all is OK.
    It also is Never done without warning the parent.
    So I ask you or undercover bocher ,
    Who is doing wrong here?
    The school that can’t function without money, and tried in good faith to work something out, and warned the parents,?
    Or the self centered stuck up arrogant parent, who ignores the school and then callously sends their own kid !!! To the lions den to be embarrassed, basically telling the school, I dare you to carry out your threat???

    #1753549

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Undercove,

    I’m still waiting for an answer to my question. The fact that you are not answering leads me to believe that you don’t have an answer.

    The Wolf

    #1753555

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Parents should not send their children to the lion’s den, but the school has no right to be a lion’s den.

    #1753615

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Rebyid23
    If a parent sends a kid to the grocery store after the owner told the parents their credit is too overdrawn and he can’t extend anymore credit, is the grocer wrong for not allowing the child to go home with the groceries?

    #1753626

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If the grocery is anything other than a for profit business, yes.

    #1753631

    Joseph
    Participant

    KY: The grocery will not make a loud announcement that other customers will become privy to.

    #1753699

    klugeryid
    Participant

    So in other words
    Joseph and ry23

    You both feel that even though the parent is aware that their child does not have an admission Card and knows the ramifications of sending their child to school without it, and still chooses to send their child, the school is wrong for carrying out their terms that they clearly enunciated to the parents???
    Really?
    So the school should say, well we really didn’t want to allow this child in because their parents are stiffing us and giving us attitude to boot, but hey, once you sent your kid we’ll keep them in school.
    I wonder how that will work out for the viability of the school in the long run.
    And when the school can’t pay their teachers, will you Joseph be understanding that it’s because they have no way to force recalcitrant parents to pay, (because once word gets out that if you don’t pay they won’t throw your kid out, many more parents will stop paying, because why not)
    Or will you pontificate about the school having an obligation to their staff to pay on-time?

    #1753747

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If it’s the wrong thing to do, it doesn’t become okay just because they gave a warning.

    #1753815

    klugeryid
    Participant

    True
    However the question is on who is the onus for the wrong thing being done.
    I posit it is on the parent for sending their child.
    If I tell you don’t come on my private property during the massive block party I’m making,
    I just remembered the story of kamtza , and saw, the glaring similarity,
    I back off my previous posts and bow out of this discussion, for now

    #1753816

    klugeryid
    Participant

    The reason I only rescind my previous posts but do not switch my opinion, is because one can differentiate that there it was just hate /spite whereas here it is with just cause. However I’m not certain which way to go

    #1753945

    user176
    Participant

    Also, the assumption is that the school is willing to work with the family. If they genuinely can not afford the full amount the school should verify that claim and provide a discount. The school should not demand tuition over rent but there most likely will need to be compromise on where the priority of tuition falls on the list of expenses. The school can’t expect a family to live like paupers so they afford tuition but the family can’t make keeping up with the Jones’ their priority at the expense of their tuition.

    #1753928

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The teachers of the school don’t have the option of NOT paying their rent or utility bills. If parents don’t pay their tuition, teachers and lower salaried workers in the school don’t get paid. If parents are having difficulty paying their tuition bills, they should not project their problems on to the school’s employees and the parent of other children who have worked hard to pay their tuition (sometimes holding a second job or foregoing items the non-paying parents may enjoy). If you cannot pay the bill, either find some mosdos or wealthy baal tzadakah who will pay your kids’ tuition, or send them to a public school and tutor them at home in limudei kodesh but you have no right to impose your economic problems on innocent third-parties. At the same time, as others have noted, the schools should be firm but seek every possible means to avoid embarrassing the innocent children who get caught up in these disputes.

    #1753942

    user176
    Participant

    Haven’t read all the comments. I’m sure every school has their own policies regarding the admission cards. In my kids school the policy is if your tuition isn’t worked out, meaning the tuition amount and payment plan is agreed upon by the parents and school, you get a card. There are always the parents who will try to avoid paying tuition, or even bothering to discuss it with the administration. Instead of saying whoever hasn’t worked it out can’t come in, it’s much better to say if you haven’t received your card in the mail be sure to contact the school and work it out because your child won’t be admitted without it.

    #1753943

    yitzyk
    Participant

    It is possible that Undercove is referring to a specific situation in a specific Yeshiva that may in fact be doing something incorrect. But his generalization “Any Yehiva…” is then mis-applied.

    Even his subsequent explanation was rather incredulous. I can’t imagine any Yeshiva that admits people without making any financial arrangements at the beginning of the year. So if the parent are in financial hardship and have in fact ‘paid all they can’, how does that compare with whatever arrangement they agreed to with the Yeshiva? Did they lie to the Yeshiva and agree to pay an amount that they had no intention of honoring?

    Or perhaps they encountered a financial hardship later in the year, and now cannot pay what they agreed to? In that case, they should contact the Yeshiva and renegotiate the terms.

    Although there are surely many exceptions, all of the Yeshivas, Schools, and Camps that I have dealt with in my 25 years as a parent of seven children have been run by decent humans who may have a tough policy but ultimately will negotiate if there is a legitimate need.

    The only Admission Cards I have ever heard of were included or referred to in the initial Admission process for the first day of the school year. Some schools don’t have the ‘Admission Card’ policy at all. Some reference it but never ask for them on the first day. And most important of all – some schools have them, BUT if you call them and make proper arrangements, whether your balance is paid up or not, they will agree to send them to you. They have no interest in actually following up their threat. All they want if you to make arrangements or discuss your balance.

    #1753950

    yitzyk
    Participant

    CTLAWYER – Yes, I agree with you that government money can spell big problems in the future. If you have a better solution, please implement it.

    I love the fact that you never had a problem with tuition – you just wrote a check. But surely you understand that not everyone is in the same boat as you. You would be one of those HEAVY HITTERS that should (and maybe do and did) help subsidize the tuition for the less fortunate.

    However, in Brooklyn (for example) when a school may contain an overwhelming majority of students from large families with low income, there just aren’t enough wealthy parents to rely on. The schools almost purposely make it so by admitting only students whose parents are ‘In Chinuch or Kollel” and turning away any parents that actually work for a living. Then they teach those students that Kollel is the only acceptable lifestyle.

    BTW – I just had a very difficult time negotiating with a prominent yeshiva for next year. They refused to reduce their seemingly very high tuition demand (except for a meager discount) even though I presented a proper need. They alleged that they already reduced it to their bare minimum to meet their expenses. The only option they offered me is that any funds that I can get anyone else to donate to the yeshiva would be offset against my tuition. I am very worried about this for the coming year, as it seems that I have entered into an agreement for an amount of tuition that I don’t know how I will pay.

    So would you like to make a generous (or even modest) donation to a very respectable well-know prominent yeshiva? You would be getting a Tax Deduction and helping another Jewish family send two ehrliche Bochurim to Yeshiva.

    I don’t expect any actual response, but if anyone actually wants to take me up on the offer, I could provide the name of the Yeshiva here.

    #1754051

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the parent doesn’t have money to pay off the balance in the beginning of the year and is refused an admission card, the child will either be embarrassed when the school embarrasses him on the first day for not having a card or alternatively by him not having a school to go to.

    #1754123

    Joseph
    Participant

    What is the approximate amount of tuition these days in Brooklyn and Lakewood?

    #1757689

    Redleg
    Participant

    Relying on “heavy hitters” to make up the shortfall runs into the main difficulty inherent in all redistribution schemes. To quote Margaret Thatcher, “Sooner or later you run out of Other People’s Money”.
    IMO, the main problem is that each school is a separate fiefdom to itself and is often run as a business that relies on tuition and donations to pay its expenses and provide livelihoods for their owners. There is no central Board of Ed that runs all the local schools a public enterprise. An example of this organization is, l’havdil, the Catholic school system where all the schools in the Diocese are run by Diocesan board and supported by general funds.
    What needs to happen is:
    1. Consolidation: Instead of 5 schools with 150 enrollment, why not one school with 600 enrollment? Yeah, I know that there may be differences in hashkofah but so what! Torah is the same for everyone and as are secular studies.
    2. Centralization: All schools the area should be under one administration. Which receives funds and distributes them. (N.B. This already works in homogeneous communities like KJ and New Square. The problem is to get folks to disregard a little of their personal hashkofos for the greater good.)
    3. Funding: While, as CTL so cogently points out, government money comes with a lot of baggage, there is no reason that schools should not accept Jewish money. That means that the schools need to just bite the bullet and join Federation.

    #1757770

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. School consolidation of unaffiliated yeshivos will simply not happen for a bunch of large reasons. It’s a pipe dream. At best you can hope for administrative/back office pooling/consolidation.

    2. The Federation will simply not accept and not fund the hundreds of mainstream Litvish and Chasidish yeshivos in Lakewood, Brooklyn and Monsey.

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