August 10, 2012 12:18 am at 12:18 am #604499
If this exists, then why can’t we accept that there are different interpretations of things?August 10, 2012 11:50 am at 11:50 am #891990zvei dinimParticipant
You asked 2 different questions.
See the ????? ??”? brought in the ????? of ????”? says roughly that even if only one opinion is right, but all are considered Torah.August 10, 2012 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #891991yichusdikParticipant
Eilu voEilu divrei Elokim Chayim.
It means that when there are sources in our mesorah for differing opinions on a matter of halachic or hashkafic importance, both opinions have merit, and both should be respected as within the bounds of halocho.
The “we” who can’t accept it do not include me. The “we”, it seems to me, are those who say – your source is not from our mesorah, or it is a minority opinion, or it is not valid today, or we are more machmir than that in our community, or, and this is the best one, it’s against “daas Torah”.
They are, in essence, arrogating for themselves the right to tell other Jews how to interpret Torah, no matter how well informed or sourced the opinion is.
Well, if I am going to be don l’kaf zchus, I’d say they were putting up gedorim around Torah, protecting what they see as the honour of their leadership, and guiding other Jews away from sin. Very noble.
But if I am going to look at human nature, it seems that this is about power, and nothing else. If halachic and hashkafic decisions can be sourced from those who they see as unfit, or sources they have rejected, their power to influence an increasingly broad section of the frum and traditional Jewish world is weakened. If so, their institutions are weakened, their fundraising is impacted, and their control over everything from their kids to their wives to the magazines in frum households to the local vaad hakashrus is more tentative.
Now lets look at the other side.
There is an inherent handicap to accepting that a stricter interpretation is justified, so it is rare that those who are less strict challenge the justification of those who are more strict. The reverse is not true.
What further weakens those who are less machmir is the fact that some people on the fringes abuse the concept of eilu voeilu, considering some things that are violations of halocho from ALL points of view to be OK.August 10, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #891992EnglishmanMember
zvei: Which means even though an opinion that the world doesn’t pasken by is considered Torah, even though it is assur to use that shitta as halacha lmaaisa.August 10, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #891993Andere KukParticipant
There is a very good extensive explanation in the ??? ???? ????. I think that’s a ??? that both men and woman are comfortable looking at, although that’s a discussion that may warrant a special thread 😉August 10, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #891994EnglishmanMember
As Sam said on the other thread:
“someone who holds like Rashi on the corporeality of G-d nowadays would be an Apikores, plain and simple.”
As we see, yelling Eilu V’Eilu to justify ones opinion, even citing a valid opinion, does not necessarily make one less of an apikorus.August 10, 2012 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #891995
The most minimal interpretation, as seen on Gittin 6b (I think), is that opinions we don’t follow are considered Torah and can be studied with a bracha.August 10, 2012 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #891996
Thanks for all your responses.
So, based on that premise, the “machlokes” about the Flatbush eruv would dictate that if one is following a reliable rav who paskens that it’s ok, then others (who don’t follow it) should have no issue with some following this derech, correct??
Somehow, it doesn’t seem that way.August 10, 2012 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #891997KozovMember
Yichusdik, all I can say is that I don’t feel like I personally fit into those 4 middle paragraphs, nor do i think they are the only ways to look at it.August 11, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #891998
Why didn’t Rav Shach feel a need to say eilu v’eilu regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe? We obviously see if your sheeta holds another sheeta is assur then there is no chiyuv to respect it as divrei Elokim.
Of course, chazal often argued in Torah. I guess we must say that in those arguments one Rav could see the perspective of the other Rav as holding some validity, or at least felt that the other Rav was based in emes. If you hold somebody else’s opinion is based in sheker then you don’t need to respect it as divrei Elokim.
It’s not our call to judge whether an opinion that comes out of the mouth of someone respected as a Gadol is based in emes or sheker, but if another Gadol states a judgement on an opinion as being sheker then we have the right to stand behind him.August 12, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #891999
mommamia22: It depends. If someone really wants to keep the machlokes going all he has to do is say the other side is not legitimate Torah which just makes things even worse. BTW, I like the flatbush eruv example because I don’t use most eruvin in most places (I learned 16 amos v’zehu) but today someone who does use it came to my house to borrow a book.August 12, 2012 3:13 am at 3:13 am #892000
Itche who says you were allowed to lend the book?August 12, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #892001
WIY: I believe R’ Shlomo Zalman and R’ Moshe, among others, say that as long as the person has a legitimate opinion to rely on then there’s no Lifnei Iver to give him something that you hold is Assur for you. The two examples that I hears B’Sheim R’ Shlomo Zalman (by a very Chareidi Rav, so this shocked me to here) were Eruvin and the Heter Mechirah.August 12, 2012 4:42 am at 4:42 am #892003
I hear, but at the same time you may not ask him to carry for you in an eruv that you dont hold of.August 12, 2012 10:29 am at 10:29 am #892004
WIY: I do not think that’s true. I know of a very Choshuv Rov who has his son carry for him all the time. (That could be, however, because he refuses to use any Eruv, not because he holds that one in particular is bad.)August 12, 2012 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #892005
WIY: He wasn’t carrying for me. He was carrying my book, and I recognize that many people are not machmir for 16 amos and that most eruv disputes are political.
Sam2: Who permits Heter Mechirah these days? Rav Kook’s heter was a hora’as sha’ah. It seems that there are new considerations in the psak every cycle.August 12, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #892006
Itche: I don’t disagree. There are enough other options nowadays that the Heter M’chirah really shouldn’t be necessary. All it really is now is a “Limud Z’chus” on those who wouldn’t keep Shmittah at all anyway. I have heard some fairly big (no one huge though) Rabbonim say that because there are legitimate Shittos that hold of it it’s okay for those who use it.August 12, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #892007
Sam, you wrote: “I have heard some fairly big (no one huge though) Rabbonim say…”
When others write that someone is or isn’t a godol or say Rov A is a greater rov than Rov B, you on more than one occasion jumped in and effectively said ‘how dare you rate rabbonim’, etc.
Yet, here you yourself rate rabbonim… some are “fairly big” but not “huge”, while others are “huge” rabbonim. Now you can understand looking at rabbonim comparability is not only okay but actually necessary. (As you yourself just did.)August 12, 2012 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #892008
I asked a Rabbi and was told that if you hold an Eruv isnt kosher then you cant ask someone to carry and be “oiver” for you.August 12, 2012 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #892009
Shlishi: I very rarely get involved in discussions of rating people. When someone is accepted by (almost) everybody as being a certain caliber, then there is no need to rate them. I think it’s more or less accepted who is of that caliber. When I said “fairly big”, I meant a Shul Rav or Rebbe in a major Yeshivah who is respected but is not recognized as being one of the generation’s leading Talmidei Chachamim.
WIY: That’s strange. I have heard the statement by R’ Shlomo Zalman said in several places so it’s fairly Yadua, and I will B”N try and find the place in the Igros where I saw something similar.August 12, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #892010
Sure there is a need to comparatively decide which Rov is bigger. We need to in order to judge who is an authority in the first place. Otherwise you wouldn’t know who is a godol, in the first place. The fact that he is accepted as a godol only means that many people have judged his “level” to be that of a godol. And the same common sense that tells you so-and-so stands out among his peers making him an authority, tells you that certain so-and-so’s stand out even more. Or less.
Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made.August 12, 2012 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #892011
Shlishi: Yes, but it’s not an assessment that should be made by individuals about individuals.August 12, 2012 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #892012
Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater. So, absolutely it can be made by individuals. If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter – but why in the world would you say nobody else can know? So clearly, we can compare “levels”, its just that to some, certain comparisons are “obvious” and others are not. Well, to other people, perhaps who are more knowledgable and skilled in assessing these kinds of values, other comparisons are also obvious.August 12, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #892013
Shlishi: Some comparisons are obvious. Comparing R’ Moshe to any Shul Rav or Rebbe in a Yeshivah now is obvious. Comparing, say, Rav Schachter to Rav Belsky is not obvious at all. When people are levels apart you clearly can tell. That doesn’t mean that you can tell the difference between any two great Talmidei Chachamim (or even any two big, but not great, Talmidei Chachamim). Or are you claiming that you could look and tell the difference between Rav Ovadia and Rav Elyashiv. Or between R’ Mordechai Eliyahu and R’ Bentzion Abba Shaul? Or between R’ Chaim Kanievsky and R’ Shternbuch? Sometimes the answer is obvious. But sometimes it really isn’t for any individual to say.August 12, 2012 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #892014
If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter. Clearly, we can compare “levels”, its just that to some, certain comparisons are “obvious” and others are not. Well, to other people, perhaps who are more knowledgable and skilled in assessing these kinds of values, other comparisons are also obvious.August 12, 2012 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #892015
Please do I would be very interested to see this inside.August 12, 2012 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #892016
WIY: It may take a while though. I really don’t recall precisely where it was at all. The page is taking shape in my memory, but I’ll need to look for a while.August 13, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #892017
I was also taught the same thing as Sam2 is describing. The parallel my Rosh Yeshiva described is that it’s like trying to look up in the night sky and telling which stars are closer and which are farther away. It’s impossible for us to tell because we’re so far away. The only thing you can do is ask someone who is closer to them to tell us. A gadol can tell you which gadol is greater, but for us it’s like looking up at two stars and telling which one is closer.August 13, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #892018
See what I mentioned that Rav Shach writes.August 13, 2012 2:38 am at 2:38 am #892019
Shlishi, I haven’t seen R’ Shach’s quote inside, but you give no context to understand whether he is talking directly to poskim who need to follow a sheeta or to the average Jew in terms of who to ask shailas to, whether he is discussing following an Achron vs. a Rishon, or whether he is referring to following a chashuv Rosh Yeshiva vs. a recognized Gadol Hador. Your quote stands alone with absolutely no context so I couldn’t just apply it to all situations across the board. My Rosh Yeshiva’s statements, however, are in very specific context, and they don’t argue with this R’ Shach, except in the assumption that most people are equipped with the ability to rank gedolim – something that common sense says is highly unlikely. I dare say that if the average kollel guy thinks he can rank gedolim he is fooling himself and holds a bit too highly of himself.August 13, 2012 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #892022
Curiosity: Rav Shach zt’l addressed his point to the hamon hoam, the average person in Klal Yisroel. And he is referring to contemporary rabbonim of today.August 13, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #892023yichusdikParticipant
Have we really descended to the level of “Oh, Yeah? Well, My Rov is bigger than YOUR Rov!!” “We’ll See! MY Rov will make a psak that makes YOUR Rov look like a…a… Modern Orthodox Zioni Feminist!”
Seriously????August 13, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #892024shmoelMember
So the shittos of Avi Weiss is the same eilu veilu as those of Rabbi Schachter?August 13, 2012 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #892025
The comparison of attempting to identify which stars are closer/farther to gedolim is a great example!August 14, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #892026
Shlishi, I would like to see the R’ Shach inside before I make any comments on it. Can you tell me the exact source of what you quoted?August 21, 2012 4:44 am at 4:44 am #892027
Michtavim Umaamarim vol. 3, #213.
“Everyone must follow the traditions of their parents. One may not deviate from their customs. And in a case where there is a disagreement in Halacha and there is no family tradition, one should follow the Posek who is a greater Godol BaTorah. And it is possible to know who is greater, for example, here in Eretz Yisroel there are many places where people should follow the Psakim of the Chazon Ish.”
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