December 16, 2021 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #2042460
As reported in the YWN, two airlines CEOs [SWA and American] came out against the mask mandate on airplanes saying the HEAP system on the plane filters 99.97% of the air and its more sterile then most indoor places.
Wow after long last someone said the truth about emperors new clothingDecember 16, 2021 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2042527
Except these two are nogeah b’davar and want to sell more tickets. And, now people who were Ok with circulating dirty air for years, are suddenly trustworthy.
I did not fly for some time, but I do remember how close someone’s face can be – and how many times I, and others, got sick after flying on a plane. If someone sneezes in your face – the filtering system is not helping. When planes are not flying, the filtering system may be off, etc. A line in the airport.December 16, 2021 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #2042529
To be fair to the CEOs, they may be right that airplanes may be safer than the other outdoor places people are visiting and often staying for a long time. “safer” than totally unsafe environment does not mean “safe” for sane people though.December 16, 2021 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #2042530
would it be unAmerican to segregate masked/unmasked/unvaxed people into different planes or front and back of a plane?
maybe airlines can segment market – Jetblue require masks , Frontier – not. Businesses like segmented markets, you can charge more.December 16, 2021 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #2042552ParticipantParticipant
“would it be unAmerican to segregate masked/unmasked/unvaxed people into different planes or front and back of a plane?”
Probably, but it’s a lot more American than demanding planes only allow masked people on.December 16, 2021 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2042556HaLeiViParticipant
For what it’s worth, airplane air is not recycle again and again. Fresh air comes in, compressed, from the engine and air is let out through a valve.December 16, 2021 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #2042567
I’m not sure whether it’s right or wrong to still mandate masking on planes if there are already vaccine and PCR test mandates.
But I’m always flabbergasted at the sheer adversity so many people have to wearing masks. Just keep the piece of paper on your face for a few hours, it’s not difficult, a 5 year old can do it. Like this is the hill you chose to literally die on?December 16, 2021 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #2042601
“Like this is the hill you chose to literally die on?”
I know you will be so sorry to hear this but people aren’t dying in pandemic proportion anymore. Disappointing to you, I know, cuz the reality of the stats on non compliant communities proved you wrong. Tough spot to be in I bet.December 16, 2021 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #2042603
ys > I’m always flabbergasted at the sheer adversity so many people have to wearing masks.
you are right. When you read history, either BM2 or Roman, you sometimes wonder what were people thinking, why didn’t they focus on solving the most important problems of that generation. And now we see, indeed, people are mostly focused on trivial issues – why do I need to wear a mask, or have one more vaccine in addition to another 10 I have, or skip a game or a bar mitzva … The prblem is – Hashem sends us a test, and we are supposed to learn some lessons and chnage our behaviors in some way. If we fail the test by not even focusing on the right question, no wonder, the test gets prolonged.December 16, 2021 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2042640
@always_ask_questions The reason we don’t have to cancel Bar Mitzvahs nor skip another game is because of the success of vaccines. Before vaccines, we were able to almost be back to normal with regular masking and social distancing policies. So masks and vaccines are a small price to pay for returning to normal.
You’re logical fallacy is that you’re equating all the anti-COVID measures as equal. So being locked down and having shuls and schools closed to you is as bad as keeping a piece of paper on your face. Fakhert. We kept masks on so that our shuls and schools can be open with only a small fear of spreading COVID. Now Hashem gave us an even better weapon to fight it, the vaccines. Which allows us to open shuls where wearing masks isn’t necessary.
The fact that so many people are still vehemently opposed to even the smallest things that could prevent COVID shows that perhaps we haven’t learned the lesson Hashem is trying to teach us.December 17, 2021 7:04 am at 7:04 am #2042671
@yserbius123 “But I’m always flabbergasted at the sheer adversity so many people have to wearing masks.”
Some people love the smell of burning wood others hate it, some people love loud music others hate it,
I have no issue of your loving your mask, wear it with a self contained breathing appatus all I care, but dont shove your likes down my throat.
The CEOs testified that there is no rhyme or reason for masks wearing on a plane, you want to double or triple mask be my guest but leave me out of your compulsions.December 17, 2021 9:16 am at 9:16 am #2042678
I don’t ask Airplane CEO’s or anybody else that is not a Medical professional for medical advice and I surely do not take their advice.December 17, 2021 10:45 am at 10:45 am #2042689
@commonsaychel See what I mean? What’s with all the hate? You hated masks before the vaccine, now with the vaccine you hate them just as much if not more! Do I “love my mask”? No. I found it uncomfortable. But I wore it because I cared about the people around me. But I didn’t hate it like you do for whatever reason you decide today. (government overreach? lack of oxygen? my body my choice?)
The reason we were able to go to shul and school at all in 2020 without the constant fear of getting sick is because of masks. The reason we don’t have to be makpid on masks so much any more is because of vaccines. The reason COVID isn’t as dangerous as it was a year and a half ago is because of the combination of vaccines and people using seichel to be careful about COVID (quarantines, testing, masks, etc. etc. etc.). Then you have your crowd who just wants to throw it all out and pretend that COVID just magically went away all on its own.
But since neither masks nor vaccines are even close to 100% effective, in some places (especially with a lot of people in close proximity for a long period of time) it’s preferable to take every precaution. And if someone is asking me to take extra COVID precautions on their property (i.e. an airplane) I see no reason to hate on it. For that matter, if anyone is asking for people to be extra cautious, there’s no reason to be so against it.December 17, 2021 10:45 am at 10:45 am #2042703December 17, 2021 10:45 am at 10:45 am #2042704
jackk> surely do not take their advice.
I think the issue is more that they are interested parties. As R Meir Twersky wrote – we value human life more than others, as their cheshbon is more of money v. health. And also airlines have bad record of providing safe air. They were never bothered by people getting sick on the plane.
And they chose their words carefully: it is safer than other indoor environments (they did not specify which one). So, those who are used to sit for hours with tens of other people in a room with bad ventilation and closed windows, will be safer in the air. I think research supports that. Not sure what is wrong with the mask though as it sure protects you from your neighbor’s sneezing.December 17, 2021 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #2042725
> So being locked down and having shuls and schools closed to you is as bad as keeping a piece of paper on your face.
I understand your point. I have no problem with people trying to do things responsibly, even if disagree on specific risk/reward estimates.
There is a difference between people who are forced to eat non-kosher when conscripted into Czar’s army and those who buying a BigMac because it is cheaper. Same here.
The new thing I see now is that people are really tired of the magefa and everyone around them getting “natural immunity” a couple of times, so they psychologically turned it off. I saw recently an elderly rov in K-95 davening with great kavana on the outside side of the minyan, standing at a 2-person table with 3 more tables nearby. A just slightly younger unmasked person comes in and sits down at the same table, spreading subway style half-way towards the other one. The elderly rov, gently moves away (not to offend?) and continues standing without a chair/table.
What gives? I think – there are some derech eretz issues that are well-known and people are trained from childhoold: don’t step on someone else’s feet, makom kavua, wear pants in public … and then there are some that pop up a new and only people who think about mitzvos consciously do them. Others reveal their inner am-haaertz. As my (non-MO) Rav suggested – you land in Israel, take an Uber, get to a destination, pay him without thinking and go. Wrong. You should stop and register that you are doing a mitzvah of paying a worker on time, l’shem ..December 17, 2021 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #2042727
common > they own the planes,
they don’t own the planes, they are indirectly hired by shareholders to maximize profits. Their pay is extremely correlated with that. Most people, including myself, will take small or reasonable risk as part of their parnosah. Kal v’homer if the rewards are huge and risks are someone else’s.December 18, 2021 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2042937
@AAQ, the companies own or lease the planes, they also hire the CEOs who set policy, we live in a free market economy [at least for the time being] and if one airline has a mask mandate and the other does not, nothing is stopping you or Jackk from not flying on the who does not have the mandate, its called individual choice.December 18, 2021 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #2042943☕️coffee addictParticipant
“ Their pay is extremely correlated with that. Most people, including myself, will take small or reasonable risk as part of their parnosah. Kal v’homer if the rewards are huge and risks are someone else’s.”
Unless lawsuits start coming if people get sick from their planes and they lose their job, the business goes bankrupt and the shareholders lose their investmentsDecember 19, 2021 6:53 am at 6:53 am #2042949GadolhadorahParticipant
“Arline CEOs got it……. right??
Well, at least one CEO, Gary Kelly of SouthWest Airlines tested positive for COVID-19 on Friday immediately after appearing at a U.S. Senate hearing on Wednesday where he questioned the need for masks. Also on Friday, there were two incidents of passengers pushing back against flight attendants seeking compliance with the mask requirments shouting that “Your CEO said we don’t need them”.December 19, 2021 6:57 am at 6:57 am #2042961
coffee > Unless lawsuits start coming if people get sick from their planes
I agree. I still stand by the statement that they are biased medical experts. There are better ones published, and if you care about the topic, you could refer to those.December 19, 2021 7:57 am at 7:57 am #2042986
Gary Kelly wore a mask at the Senate hearing, if the Senate would have needed to close because then it would have been a huge accomplishment on the part of Mr. Kelly.
FYI a frind of mine just flew on a international airline and when one of the mask frantics complained the people were unmasked, the flght attendant told them “get over it”December 19, 2021 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2042998
“we value human life more than others”
The large number of anti-mask, anti-vax, and pro-quackery comments on YWN show that he was mistaken. 🙁December 19, 2021 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2042997
“dont shove your likes down my throat”
Masks aren’t being shoved down your trhoat. They do, however, reduce the likelihood that a ventilator will be shoved down your throat and the throats of others.December 19, 2021 8:19 am at 8:19 am #2042996
“people aren’t dying in pandemic proportion anymore”
1,290 deaths a day in the US over the past week. The numbers have been that high or higher for almost four months now. That is a bit higher than the average number of deaths during the entire pandemic. So no, people continue to die and the reasons are that people won’t get vaccinated, won’t wear masks, and pretend that the pandemic is over. It isn’t.December 19, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #2043007
I am still blown away at the way the very same people who question and dismiss away many aspects of judaism are willing to accept all covid facts with blind faith, even when the facts and stats prove them wrong.December 19, 2021 9:01 am at 9:01 am #2043013December 19, 2021 9:12 am at 9:12 am #2043015
You’re a smart guy, read through the threads and you’ll see it yourself. Hard to miss.December 19, 2021 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2043023
And frankly, a researchers, scientist or doctor who cannot honestly differentiate between anti vax and anti mandate (even if he refuses to admit such in public) is grossly under qualified.December 19, 2021 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2043026
“@Jackk, they own the planes, you dont like it then fly on a private jet”
This has nothing to do with what I said.
Secondly, it is the anti-mask and vaccine mandates people that are protesting that their rights are being violated when they are not allowed into restaurants and other venues .
You don’t like it, eat at home.December 19, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2043043
@Jackk, I agree on that aspect, if your dont like the resturant rules of the places that require vacaines then eat at home, conversly if the shoe is on the other foot and your in a place that does not require vacs or masks [such as FL. or TX.], then stop complaining and eat at home.
I am consistant with both unlike you.
And yes if some airlines lift the mask mandate and you don’t like then don’t fly with them,December 19, 2021 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2043053
I never spoke in favor or against mask mandates.
I speak in favor of letting people who have degrees in infections diseases and decades of experience be the deciders.
Not Facebook or fox news hosts or republican dentists.December 19, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2043076
@ Jackk, and I dont care what the talking heads OR paid hacks like Dr. Howard Zucker aka Andy Cuomo’s lapdog have to say, I have enough confidence in people to make the own judgements.
So if an airline CEO says the HEAP filters filter out 99.97 of the air, people are capable of deciding if they want to wear a mask while flying, on the other side of the coin, if you, Charlie, GH and the rest want to triple mask be my guestDecember 19, 2021 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #2043111
“I speak in favor of letting people who have degrees in infections diseases and decades of experience be the deciders.”
Jackk – well said, couldn’t agree with you more. Not sure why you speak as if no left wingers did the same but still…December 19, 2021 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #2043129
Which left wingers argued with infectious disease experts?
I am not arguing. I just want to know who you are referring to.December 19, 2021 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2043151
common > HEAP filters filter out 99.97 of the air, people are capable of deciding if they want to wear a mask while flying,
I am not against the idea that planes are safer than subway and schools. I saw impressive papers some time ago. If you have an argument find those and quote.
Still, Common, you know physics, right? You have 2 neighbors near you in the airline. They are in your face. Their breathing and coughing lands on your face before it reaches filters, even if you have directed airflow that moved the air down because the person projects the air. Try putting a feather in the air and blow it a little, and see if it goes down or towards neighbor. Or see if you can smell his food. Also, check whether they now use their filtering system while plane is on the ground. At some point, reports were that they did not. Maybe they do now.
So, when CEO says filter deals with “99.97%” of air, he may be technically correct. Maybe he can report an independent statistical report following up people after a flight. And, as someone noted already somewhere here, variants have no problem travelling between countries – most likely by air.December 19, 2021 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #2043163
@AAQ so buy two seatsDecember 19, 2021 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2043182DovidBTParticipant
“so buy two seats”
Or charter a private flight.December 19, 2021 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2043200
> so buy two seats
Looked into that! Generally, not possible. Airlines could do something creative if they wanted to and cared. Either segregated flights, or just allow people indicate their vax and mask status in seat selection – charging extra for changing seats based on this info. I’d pay to seat near a boostered and double-N95 person.
Emergency shows so many “conventions” that are in the way of life-saving ops. for example, many recently published articles have a link to “data” – and all instead of data provide a standard excluse: anonymized data can not be provided because it still may violate privacy (that is, someone can figure out a person based on his serology …). So, it is one team looking at data instead of hundred.December 19, 2021 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2043249
@syag-lchochma Nobody appreciates snark. You made a very controversial and antagonistic statement. What do you have to back it up other than “read your old comments”? What forms of Yiddishkeit did people ignore while believing something COVID related on blind faith alone?December 19, 2021 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2043251
Yserbius – two comments for you. 1) the last time I discussed covid with you you were nasty, acused me of being pro death and twisted most of my comments into things I never said so please understand that all other topics are open but I ain’t engaging with you on this one.
2) the comment does not apply to you. I have no recollection of you rewriting religion or rationalizing away halachos or minhagim.December 20, 2021 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2043406
If I recall correctly, much of the early COVID pandemic response was based on the last major outbreak of SARS in 2004 which originated from Wuhan and spread to American via air travelers. The “six feet” rule was based on the fact that all the passengers who were infected on the plane were within six feet of someone with SARS.December 20, 2021 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2043401
@syag-lchochma The last time we engaged, I brought up a (seemingly exaggerated if not completely made up) story that someone posted and all you could do is scream in all caps that I’m a liar over and over again because (let me see here…) I said “was choking” when the original post was “couldn’t breathe”.
So by all means stop. Because if that’s what you consider “discussing”, I would hate to see what you consider arguing.
Anyhoo, enough about myself. You said that there are people who take COVID on faith while denying Yiddishkeit. I wanted to know specifics. That’s all.December 20, 2021 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #2043433
Nice job editing. Seems you have done well to prove point 1.December 20, 2021 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #2043438
Side point- I dispatch for hatzalah. If I put “difficulty breathing” calls out as “choking” I would lose my “job”.
Just sayin’December 20, 2021 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2043437
Which left wingers argued with infectious disease experts?
You had said you would like to let the experts decide, not the right wing media. I meant by my comment that no media (or mayors etc) should be setting the rules from either side. I didn’t realize you were specifically referring to arguing with experts, hence my comment.December 20, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #2043474LostsparkParticipant
“So if an airline CEO says the HEAP filters filter out 99.97 of the air”
Your ignorance is once again shining, HEPA filters are not rated upon the percentage of air filtered.
Please research HEPA MERV ratings, and UV light filtration.December 20, 2021 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2043471
@AAQ I would love not to have to sit next to an obese person, however that does not happen, the only was to be assured is to buy the seat next to yours.December 20, 2021 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2043533
ys > “six feet” rule was based on
it is based on physics – propagation of large debris that get out of the mouth/nose. There are tons of simulators and tests for that. This is remarkably same as our traditional four amot! 6ft = 1.8m, 4 0.5m amot = 2m. Europeans are using 2 meters for covid rather than 6 ft. So, it looks lkike physics of breathing did not change in thousand years and was accurately measured!
ps 6 ft is for large particles that go down reasonably quickly, this is separate from aerosol that accumulate in the air.December 20, 2021 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2043538OrangeCountyChapperParticipant
Getting back to the original post, I don’t believe the airline CEO’s factor the passengers’ health interests into their opinion about the mask mandate. Of course they would prefer not to be responsible for enforcing mask wearing. As someone else here said, you could get sick by sitting next to a sneezing passenger before the pandemic. HEPA filters didn’t change it then and still won’t change it. For now, I will wear a mask because it makes me feel safer, regardless of my vaccination status. I don’t give a rat’s tuchus about what other people do.
If I were an airline CEO I would continuously poll the public over whether they would/would not fly based on a mask requirement. As the flying public’s opinion changes I would rerun the numbers and change my position about masking based on achievable revenue.
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