Airline CEOs got it right
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December 20, 2021 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2043561
common > , the only was to be assured is to buy the seat next to yours.
again, my understanding, they don’t sell empty seats. Maybe I’m wrong. But looking at this Jewishly, our approach is different: if I am bothering you, it is my responsibility to mitigate the damage (Bava Basra, 2 houses at different height, the one higher needs to put the fence). So, a kosher obese person should be buying enough space and a kosher non-masking (oxymoron, IMHO) people should all bunch together in the back of the bus.December 20, 2021 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2043559
@syag-lchochma You never answered the question. What have people said that makes them skeptical of Yiddishkeit while taking COVID by faith alone?
@orangecountychapper That’s true, it’s all about what passengers want, what shareholders want, and whether they could be liable if someone gets sick on a plane.December 20, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2043585
Sure I answered your question. At least once. Meanwhile I’m enjoying all the variations you’ve created of mine, I think we’re up to delta!December 20, 2021 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2043587
Orange > HEPA filters didn’t change it then and still won’t change it.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe that pre-pandemic filtering was insufficient, it was known that it made infection go around, but nobody cared. As I did not research it in detail, I hesitate to claim it, so consider this an opinion.
> For now, I will wear a mask
As was already mentioned, not clear how masking became a symbol of rebellion. We wear a lot of stuff that restrict our movement – from socks to hats. There are so many serious topics to discuss about Covid: medical, educational, work, helping those who need help in any of those. The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. Sad that the country is holding by this, and even sadder that our community does.December 20, 2021 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #2043598
“The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. ”
No kidding. Glad you finally realize it. Does that mean you are finally willing to allow people to follow their doctors instead of mayor deblasio or gov Cuomo? Or will it always be that anyone who doesn’t toe your line is a murderer?December 20, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2043608
>> “The focus on anti-masking, anti-vaxxing is really very childish. ”
Syag> No kidding. Glad you finally realize it.
What I mean that people who protest very basic public health measures, such as masks and vaccines, are behaving childishly.
I have no idea what you mean by “follow their doctors”. 98% of doctors are vaccinated and probably 100% are working in masks. Are you saying that 30% of the population that are not vaccinated or not wearing masks are following recommendation of their actual doctors? This does not sound probable, and I was asking people here and not getting response. Btw, as of today, most of US is under omicron that partially avoids previous immunity both vaccine and disease. Do you expect people who touted their “natural immunity” to change their opinion? I don’t.December 20, 2021 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2043613
“Are you saying that 30% of the population that are not vaccinated or not wearing masks are following recommendation of their actual doctors? ”
I’m not as proficient as you at making up stats and pretending they are real but I can try. Here goes. Yes.
I know many doctors who have said that the vaccine is a personal choice and that masks are useless but they don’t want to lose their jobs so they wear them. Same as me. I have not heard anyone but you say the omicron is not affected by the vaccine. I read that south Africa and Israel both said it is. But that was last week…
I am not anti mask, I’m anti you making a religion out of it. I’m anti you calling people murderers for not doing things your way. I’m anti what pro maskers to the exclusion of all else including Gd have done to friendships and congeniality. And once again I will wait for the echo as the words bounce of the earplugs because if you don’t bow to the holy flag of mask or die, you are merely white noise.December 20, 2021 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #2043616
Syag, we had looong discussions here with some of these guys and they all refer to websites, inner knowledge and personal choice. I was asking whether anyone was told this by their regular physician and heard babkes back. I am sure there are some, but they do not add up to the numbers of those who stand by those positions. Our religion makes a stand whether to drink a cup in 1 or 2 or 3 gulps. Surely, we can consider risks to life as religious issue. I am not insisting that my position is right, I am just throwing arguments out there and always happy to hear a reasoned argument back.
Re:omicron. What I read so far: most data so far is on transmission that seems not to be slowed much by JJ/AZ/Chinese/Russian vaccines, only in part by 3rd dose of mRNAs. And seems the same for “natural immunity”.
I first thought that “3rd” means “recent”, but I saw slides comparing 2nd and 3rd on the same day after the dose and difference was large. It is now admitted that having 3-4 weeks between 1st and 2nd doses were not ideal, Brits are now recommending 3 months for kids between vaccines. Maybe this explains decrease after 2nd dose. As to serious cases, everyone seem to hope that all previous exposures help, but the data from the field is not in, it will come in several weeks.December 20, 2021 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2043618
“I am just throwing arguments out there and always happy to hear a reasoned argument back.”
If only that were trueDecember 21, 2021 8:04 am at 8:04 am #2043621
an interesting case of mask and public discourse: some articles today quote a michigan study where schools with no rules now have same transmission as schools with rules. Hurrah!
Click on the study and you see a very simple timeline: both types of school started at the same rate in august, then masked schools stayed 20-30% below the unmasked and then all schools experienced sharp increase in November becoming equal by thanksgiving and then all falling down together. So, if you care about number of kids who were infected (and transmitted to families, etc) you would understand that total number of sick people is way less in masked case. If you care about making a silly point – you point to the plot and say – see they are now the same.
Same presentation shows 13x higher rate of death for unvaxed v vaxed, standardized by age, and a plot of direct correlation between state cumulative death rate and vaccination rates. None of this is quoted, of course, in those childish articles.December 21, 2021 8:04 am at 8:04 am #2043622
> If only that were true
Note the word “reasoned”. ;} For example, Health gave me a bunch of interesting websites, I went and read them.December 21, 2021 8:29 am at 8:29 am #2043688
So here’s the thing. Your article had nothing to do with what I was saying to you. And then you supported that inability to acknowledge there can be information you don’t like with a second response of lableling everything you don’t want to hear to be “unreasonable” (I wasn’t referring to Health’s suggestions at any point)
And now you seem to have repeatedly added the word childish to try to add a demeaning quality to not just other views, but to those who read them.
Last try – it is your behavior that is offensive, not the science. (the real science of course. The kind doctor use when they worry about patients and not politics) Your behavior is offensive, not the science. What you have done with your beliefs is offensive, not what it true.December 21, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2043702
So now TSA/HHS are considering a requirement for proof of full vaccination or negative PCR test within 48 hrs of flight before you will be allowed to board a domestic flight. This would mirror requirements for many international flights. Probably more effective than the “mask-on/mask-off” comedy under the current rules where you open a bottle of water and take you mask off and on and then take it off for an hour while you slowly sip your diet coke and nibble your carry-on chulent.December 21, 2021 10:17 am at 10:17 am #2043721
@syag-lchochma There’s the Syag I know and love! Well, I’m glad at least this time you aren’t responding with all-caps “LIAR LIAR” when I didn’t directly quote your question word for word, I guess we’ve all matured. Let’s pretend I have a bad memory. Can you copy and paste the answer you gave to the following question “What examples are there of the very same people who question and dismiss away many aspects of judaism are willing to accept all covid facts with blind faith?”
I’m agreeing with @always_ask_questions over here. Masking is a very basic measure that has been proven to be extremely effective against COVID, even in the absence of a vaccine. So are vaccinations. The current opposition to vaccines and masking is nothing short of childish. The current dangerous claim is that single girls who get vaccinated won’t have children. In a year when that’s proved to be more nonsense you and the others will move on to another, equally ridiculous, lie.
And on a similar note, although many of these people that seem to be cheering on COVID claim that many doctors are against vaccinations, at no point have I heard of any of these people asking their local physician that they always go to if they should get vaccinated and wear a mask. It’s always some random guy on the Internet with a PhD in paleontology or something.December 21, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2043724
@GH Chulent is allowed on planes? I thought it was banned as a dangerous substance, anyway covid will soon the least of our concern, they want to ban Chulent under the BBB because of the effect of methane gas on the ozone layer.December 21, 2021 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #2043747
Can you explain to me how you “reprimand” me for a ‘snarky’ comment and then write the paragraph above which I’d say snarky is probably too nice to describe? As you say, “nobody appreciates snark” umm, except you when it works for you, right? seems to be a pattern here….December 21, 2021 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2043765
@syag-lchochma Because I thought we would have a civil conversation for once, but you went right back to the snark. Are you going to answer the question?December 21, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2043770
CS: On a serious note, the mask requirement on airplanes has always baffled me (and I’m generally a supporter of indoor mask requirements in crowded situations with unknown up close and personal seating). How are you “safer” when the rules allow you to take off the mask for what I would guess is typically 1/3 to 1/2 the time you are seated for drinking and eating. Perhaps its better than no mask for the entire flight but otherwise only contributes to public cynicism of (and non-compliance with) public health rules.
P.S. I’m generally a veggie and big fan of tofu-based chulent. Much healthier for the heart (albeit perhaps less so for the atmosphere).December 21, 2021 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2043773
Double standards much?
here is a cut and pastem copy of my answer to you:
“Yserbius – two comments for you. 1) the last time I discussed covid with you you were nasty, acused me of being pro death and twisted most of my comments into things I never said so please understand that all other topics are open but I ain’t engaging with you on this one.
2) the comment does not apply to you. I have no recollection of you rewriting religion or rationalizing away halachos or minhagim.”
and since you have not changed much since then, I stand by it. At least with this topic. I’ve seen you have other, grown up discussions on other topics but here you are a bit too emotional and very inconsistent.December 21, 2021 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2043776
GH – I have been baffled about the mask off when you eat policies as well. Unfortunately I have been told (by doctors) that it is because the masks don’t really work so no harm done. I think the inconsistency has contributed to the turn-off/non compliance (as it tends to do in most situations) which is unfortunate. I would love for some real rules based on real science and real data presented by real, non politically funded projects. Not expecting it to happen but a girl can dream.
On a tangent, if you don’t mind me asking. I have noticed you and CS seem to think mentioning cholent and the ozone layer is really funny, as it comes up more often than I personally feel comfortable with. My question is, tho, I haven’t really met anyone over 10 that enjoys that joke anymore and I think you are both my senior. Is this what I have to look forward to in my sunset years?December 21, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #2043838
If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine don’t engage. But you are engaging and you still haven’t answered the question!
For the record, I think masks on planes is kind of dumb too. But I’m not going to protest if I take a flight and they make me wear one. It’s really not that nearly as big of a deal as your making it out to be (fake new of an old man not being able to breathe on Yom Kippur nonwithstanding).December 21, 2021 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #2043852
GH> “mask-on/mask-off” comedy under the current rules where you open a bottle of water
I am not defending a specific policy, but the idea is to reduce risk while minimizing inconvenience to the public. Obviously, no free-loving person would sacrifice his lunch to protect some stranger. So, thus the rules. Presuming that 80% of public have masks on 80% of the time, this reduces risk a lot.
See the MI report I mention above comparing school with and without masks. Significant difference even presumably enforcement was not 100% and they also had breakfast, lunch, and recess. Report actually had a group of “partial mask mandate” – and it was much closer to masked than to the no mask.December 21, 2021 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #2043870
@always_ask_questions I’m pretty sure that if the US would have had a 90-95% vaccination rate, masks would only provide a tiny bit more of protection. But people are refusing to vaccinate, so we need mask mandates to increase that protection. But the people who don’t vaccinate don’t mask nor test nor socially distant either, so we’re back to square nothing.December 21, 2021 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2043878
Yserbius, rules for new variant are unclear. Looking at preventing serious disease, you may be right that high vaccination/previous disease by itself will prevent worst outcomes. Masks will limit transmission. Usefulness of masks may depend on SD and ventilation …
I wonder whether high transmissibility means that those who are generally relaxed should plan for the easiest way to go thru infection: a vaccine in addition to initial dose or previous infection and plan for some exposure under light conditions – so that as they are getting infected, they are not getting a huge dose by sitting in an office for hours with people…
to those with “natural infection”, they should follow recommendations for booster similar to those with vaccination. Antibodies are at about same level 6 months after either event (vaccination higher first, but declining faster)December 23, 2021 8:36 am at 8:36 am #2044177
@Yseribus, I think you know EXACTLY what Syag means, all one needs to do is to read the post of certain posters and see the fervor in the way they approach masks etc and have a very nonchalnt take on frumkiet and yiddishkiet.
Syag, I just was reading someones rail about methane gas and the ozone layer and BBB, and thats why I posted.December 23, 2021 11:33 am at 11:33 am #2044220
common > fervor in the way they approach masks etc and have a very nonchalnt take on frumkiet and yiddishkiet.
in case, I am irritating someone’s nostrils, let me clarify unstated: my concern is yiddishkeit. Any unscripted event sent to us by Hashem reveals people’s thinking beyond the formal training they got in school. So, when people start saying: I don’t care about others, let them protect themselves; don’t listen to the psak, the rabbi is senile; this is obviously not yiddishkeit I know. The other part where I probably irritate you is listing cases where I suggest violating usual Jewish conventions: I bring them to point out cases where there is a trade-off with other, neglected, values. This is 1% of cases, I am not going to write here about 99% cases where there is no question. And you would not like to read me talking about me being inspired by natilas yadaim in the morning.December 23, 2021 11:34 am at 11:34 am #2044234
@commonsaychel No I don’t know what @syag-lchochma means and since neither of you posted any examples at all I’m further confused by this whole conversation. What sort of nonchalant take on frumkeit do these certain posters have? And what sort of approach towards masks do they have that makes it a matter of pure faith?December 23, 2021 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #2044305
Commonsaychel – thank you.April 19, 2022 8:52 am at 8:52 am #2078850
Wow just a few months later and a judge threw out the masking requirement for travel, what will Jackk, Yserbius, GH, AAQ etc. do now?April 19, 2022 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2078862☕️coffee addictParticipant
They won’t flyApril 19, 2022 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2078865
As enforced, the mask requirement provided minimal marginal protection since CDC never defined minimal mask specs (aka cloth, paper, N95 etc) and most passengers took their masks off for at least half the time while “eating” and “drinking”. Airlines still have the authority to impose their own rules including masks but few will do so for economic and passenger disruption risks.April 19, 2022 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2078877jackkParticipant
I don’t ask Airplane CEO’s or anybody else that is not a Medical professional for medical advice and I surely do not take their advice.
I definitely don’t take medical advice from a 35 year old judge who was rated as NOT QUALIFIED by the ABA when she was nominated 2 years earlier. Her admission to the bar was in 2012 and she had not tried a single case, civil or criminal, as lead or co-counsel when she was given by Lame Duck Trump and his band of Republican Traitors a life-time appointment.
Republicans can consider themselves the pro-life party from today until tomorrow but we all know that they don’t give a hoot about living humans.April 19, 2022 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2078889Avram in MDParticipant
You’re not even bothering to rewrite the talking points in your own words anymore. Out of curiosity, what is your goal here on this forum? I personally do not fit into a political box and like to have a back and forth with other posters, but in our few interactions you seem incapable or unwilling to do so.April 19, 2022 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2078881
@jackk, relax, deep breaths, now let go of the anger and apricated the chayrus of being mask free.
PS Judge Brown Jackson was a mere 5 years older then this judge when she was appointed to the bench, and given that you get senior status at age 65 so she has at least 30 more years on the bench to aggravate you.April 19, 2022 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #2078950jackkParticipant
Well some people will have been condemned to stop breathing because of this ridiculous ruling.
That is her achrayus.
Already a million Americans have died and counting .
The Aibeshter has not notified anyone via Nevua that Covid is no longer going to infect and kill people.
People can’t keep their masks on until they are no longer medically advised for the whole of society ?April 20, 2022 8:14 am at 8:14 am #2079017
@Jackk, No one is forced to go on a airplane, train etc. if they don’t feel comfortable with the idea, they can also fly wearing a mask, double masked, a N95 or a bunny suit, read the ruling this has ZERO with a “nevua that covid is no longer infect people” and EVERYTHING to do with governmental overreach.
PS Judge Sonia Sotomayor was about the same age when she got appointed to the federal bench.April 20, 2022 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2079039Reb EliezerParticipant
Let’s learn from Israel and keep flights. See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2078995/finally-israel-cancels-indoor-mask-requirement.htmlApril 20, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2079030
The real priority now is to provide some clear legal authority for responding to future pandemics including specification of conditions under which emergency actions can be mandated, duration of emergency and mechanisms for speedy judicial review. Otherwise, we will simply reinvent the past two years of uncertainty and litigation with no clear lines of authority and seemingly endless legal challenges.April 20, 2022 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2079133
I hope your Yom Tov is going great so far.
With all due respect you seem to have some double standards:
You seem to be pretty agitated over a ruling that affects those that for the most part are able to defend themselves. I don’t think anyone will be denied boarding if they insist on wearing whatever type of mask it takes to them to feel protected and they don’t need to board a flight if they don’t feel safe.
Please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think you were agitated at all with the supreme court justice nomination of someone who has shown mercy and compassion to perverts who exploited and took advantage of young kids – the second to most defenseless in our society. Nor did I ever see any outrage from you regarding the slaughter of unborn babies- the most defenseless in our society.
In regards to your questioning the qualifications of the 35 year old judge appointed by Former President Trump- I didn’t see you questioning the qualifications of the most recent supreme court nominee (also a lifetime appointment); someone who was nominated predominantly based on her skin color and gender yet can’t even define what a woman is. This same nominee has had numerous rulings overturned- something that’s very concerning as the Supreme Court does not have a higher court to overturn their rulings.
Where were you when Former President Obama nominated Justice Elana Kagan to the Supreme Court? She was never even a judge before she was nominated!
Also- back on March 11th you wrote that you were working on answering me (in the “So you voted for Biden” thread). Are you planning on responding or is that conversation over?
A Gutten Moed,
AviApril 21, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2079216
age of the judge does not seem to be the problem in this case. Liberals were musing on the radio whether it is worth appealing the ruling because there is a real chance that the Supremes will uphold it. So, the ruling is not baseless. The issue seems to hedge on what “and other measures” mean in the law. I would say that CDC was justified using emergency powers in first several months but Congress should step up and define the Fed powers exactly.
– airlines and buses should be able to designate masked and non-masked sections, or at least let passengers exchange seats.
– please look out for elderly people in your neighborhood who took public transportation and now might not use it and would need a ride (with an open window)April 25, 2022 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2079872
To quote what you wrote above- you described Judge Mizelle as “a 35 year old judge who was rated as NOT QUALIFIED by the ABA”.
While you are correct that the ABA rated her as “Not Qualified” you neglected to mention that the reason for the rating was that she only had 8 years of legal experience and the ABA typically requires 12 years for a rating of “Qualified”.
You also neglected to mention that the ABA said that she “has a very keen intellect, a strong work ethic and an impressive resume”. They also stressed that “her integrity and demeanor are not in question”.
Please excuse me for saying this but when you purposely leave out integral parts of the truth to push your agenda you seriously hurt your credibility.April 25, 2022 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2079881
Dr pepper )) You also neglected to mention that the ABA said that she “has a very keen intellect, a strong work ethic and an impressive resume
If this quote is correct, I would also be interested to know what caused jackk to post misleading information? Maybe he replied 9na secondary source for the quote. I don’t believe someone would have a yetzer hara to purposefully distort information in order to score a point against another avatarApril 26, 2022 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2080094
Dr. Fauci attacked the court system saying courts have no right to rule on public health matters, sorry Dr. Fauci this was not about policy it was about government overreach,April 27, 2022 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #2080577
In order to fully appreciate the post by @jackk you have to take into account not only what he wrote but also what he did NOT write (i.e. read between the lines).
Before I get into what I read between the lines; here’s a quote from jackk in a different thread explaining why he so forcefully defends the Democrats despite writing earlier in the same thread that a Frum Yid should not stand behind either party.
“I defend the Democrats forcefully in the CR. They have positions that a Frum Yid should agree with and the Republicans have some positions that a Frum Yid should reject.
If everyone in the CR respected that there can be different views, I would barely have what to say. I am defending the Democrats from the views of those who believe that they are completely Evil and that Republicans are completely Righteous, and that it is assur to vote Democrat.”
With that being said here’s what I read between the lines:
1. jackk made it very clear that he’s angered by this ruling.
What jackk did NOT say is why he’s angered by the ruling. As someone who hasn’t shown the same amount of anger towards the slaughter of unborn babies, or to perverts being allowed to follow young girls into a locker-room under the guise that they woke up feeling like a female that morning- he’s clearly not concerned about the safety of others. If I had to guess what’s really bothering him over here- it’s that he was hoping that before the elections President Biden (or another Democrat) would remove the mask mandate and voters would forget about the price of gas and sky high inflation and vote for Democrats. Now that the mandate had been ruled as unconstitutional, and by a judge appointed by a Republican, that’s no longer an option.
2. jackk did say that he won’t take medical advice from a 35 year old judge…
What jackk did NOT say is that the judge wasn’t making the decision based on medical expertise- the decision was based on whether the CDC had the authority to make the decision in the first place. jackk also did NOT say that a judge is supposed to rule based on the law- not what they want the law to be. The judge’s hands were tied in this case.
3. jackk did say that the ABA rated the judge as not qualified.
What jackk did NOT say is that the rating was made based on the judge not having the recommended amount of legal experience. jackk also did NOT say that the ABA said that she “has a very keen intellect, a strong work ethic and an impressive resume” and that “her integrity and demeanor are not in question”. (You can check out her biography on Wikipedia just like I did.)
4. jackk did say that her admission to the bar was in 2012 and she had not tried a single case, civil or criminal… when she was given… a life-time appointment.
What jackk did NOT say is that Supreme Court Justice Elana Kagan was NEVER a judge at all and that was a life-time appointment to an even higher court!
5. jackk did say that “they don’t give a hoot about living humans”.
What jackk DID say is “living” humans- read between the lines over there.
(As a side point I do think that Republicans care more about humans (both living and unborn) hence they are against abortion, against defunding the police and against taking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens who want to protect themselves from the lawlessness that the Democrats are creating.)
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