Alcohol at Tishes

Is that Rebbes of dynasties or Rebbes of classes?

As long as they aren’t drinking on the way home.

I don’t recall any of my Rebbeim serving us alchohol at their homes when I was a Bochur. I guess it’s the Rebbi’s choice – if he wants to have 25 intoxicated Bochurim on a Friday night in his home or not… I think most of the Rebbeim’s wives have enough on Purim dealing with their husband’s drunk Talmidim…

Depending on what state you live in, it may actually be illegal to serve alcohol to minors, even in a private home, particularly if you are not the parent or guardian of the child. You may also be held legally responsible for any damage caused as a result of the alcohol, particularly if the child is under the age of 16. (I’m assuming you are referring to classroom rebbes, not chasidic rebbes. . .)

meir-123; It all depends on the age of the Bochurim and the amount consumed. An 8 Oz. glass of beer can be tolerated by a Bochur of 14 Yrs. & up. Unsupervised and uncontrolled drinking at a Mesibah or Tish is wrong and should not be tolerated.

Depending on what state you live in, it may actually be illegal to serve alcohol to minors, even in a private home, particularly if you are not the parent or guardian of the child. You may also be held legally responsible for any damage caused as a result of the alcohol, particularly if the child is under the age of 16.

It is illegal in all states for non family members. Here is a quote from the NIAAA: (emphasis mine)

Some States provide an exception when alcoholic beverages are furnished to a minor by a parent/guardian or spouse. Some States specify that the spouse must be of legal age, while others do not. APIS considers a State to have a spousal exception even if the age of the spouse is not specified.

In some of these States, the exception for family members applies only if the furnishing occurs in a specified location, e.g., all private locations, private residences only, or in the home of a parent or guardian only. No State has an exception for furnishing on private property by anyone other than a family member.

Check the statistics on OTD kids. The major abused substance is alcohol, and many started at surprisingly young ages. Why put these kids at risk by offering them alcohol when they’re too young to foresee the consequences? I wouldn’t be very happy with a rebbe who gave a teen-age bochur booze.

For that matter, I wonder about Purim too. I’ve seen some high-school kids who were stinking throwing-up drunk on stuff they drank at their rebbe’s. Remember the days when your zaide said, “Shikker is a goy?” Since when have we Jews started up with this stuff?

The legal drinking age is 21. Rebbeim do NOT have a heter to ignore that. Parents do not appreciate when Rebbeim take it upon themselves to serve alcohol to their children and make the decision to do so without the permission nor opinion of the talmid’s parents. It is not up to the Rebbe to make that decision on his own or take that control away from the parent. And no, until the Law says the talmid is of age to make that decision on his own, he isn’t.

A Rebbe is supposed to be a good role model in all ways. Serving alcohol to talmidim who are NOT ALLOWED to drink is irresponsible at the very least.

aries lets say its in E”Y where the legal age is 18. (I actually think its 18 for a bar and no other restrictions)

A person is guilty of unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree when he gives or sells or causes to be given or sold any alcoholic beverage, as defined by section three of the alcoholic beverage control law, to a person less than twenty-one years old; except that this subdivision does not apply to the parent or guardian of such a person.

Unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree is a class A misdemeanor.

General Obligations Law – Section 11-100

Any person who shall be injured in person, property, means of support or otherwise, by reason of the intoxication or impairment of ability of any person under the age of twenty-one years, whether resulting in his death or not, shall have a right of action to recover actual damages against any person who knowingly causes such intoxication or impairment of ability by unlawfully furnishing to or unlawfully assisting in procuring alcoholic beverages for such person with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that such person was under the age of twenty-one.

Yes, I would like to know what you say about parents serving alchohol to thier kids. The resaom why I ask is because your making it sound like a rebbi has no heter, and according to that I dont see why a parent should be any different?

arc – I think if we intrust our childrens rabbiem to be mechanech them on the proper derech, they most definetly fall into the category of a gurdian.

arc – my point is going back on aries post

I do not know of any parent that dont let thier kids have ANY alchohol. Do you not let your kids have some kiddush wine? Do you not let your kids have a l’chaim? Do you not let your kids drink some beer whe by a sholom zochor per se? you mean that all parents that let thier kids have controlled amount of alcholol are being Irresposible? I disagree bigtime. I think that It is the only way how to teach your kids the reponsibility of alcholol is with you controling it age wise. For example when under bar mitzvah maybe only wwine, over bar mitzvah shnaps… Otherwise if we totaly ban alchohol from our kids then they will just go behind our backs, and they wont know the limit, however by teaching them the limit it will be a worthwhile invesment.

EDITED

I disagree with you pba and RB. It is irresponsible to give kids alcohol before BM and shnops after bar mitzvah. That is why we keep grape juice around. There are many homes that use grape juice only for these very same reasons and don’t use wine at all. There are also parents who pour a small drop of light wine in their BM and older glasses from the Kiddush cup and then remove the wine bottle from the table. I would consider this responsible behavior or as you called it chinuch. Others leave the bottles on the table and allow them to be finished by all. This is irresponsible behavior.

Kids who have alcohol issues are kids who either are self medicating for entirely different reasons, or kids who “learn” from their parents to be irresponsible users. Alcoholism runs in families. There is a tendency for alcohol use. If you know anything about it, you know that the studies have shown that an alcoholic will have parents and/or grandparents with the same issues of substance abuse. There is a tendency to “need” the alcohol. You have to be careful and work to break the cycle. This is just information, I am not using it to prove a point where Jewish children are concerned or this topic is concerned, just giving you this bit of information because it IS a serious issue.

The use of Alcohol in Frum Homes have gotten way out of control. It has become way too important. Some people know way too much about alcohol which bottle is more valuable and can lay them out in order of cost and rarity, more so than a gadol hador or an important psak halacha. And that goes for teenagers as well as adults. What does that tell you about how low we have developed as a frum society and how important “mashke” has become in our world? What does that tell us about how WE NEED to be aware and BE CAREFUL about what we are teaching our children and the effects it is having on us.

We argue about taking TV and INTERNET into our homes and we neglect to mention THIS particular poison which not only kills the souls of our children but also their bodies. This is pure poison and we joke about it, we let our Rebbeim serve it, and we ignore the fact that kids imbibe in shul, in yeshiva, in our homes, in their Rebbe’s home, at simchas, etc. and we make light of the fact until it is too late and then what do we do? WE BLAME THE KIDS and call them bums! WHY because THEY couldn’t control THEIR tayvos! They are kids! How can they control their tayvos when adults allowed them free reign and carte blanche? They are kids whose adults in their lives thought they needed training in the fine arts of drinking alcohol so they got them started at a young age so they would be able to handle it by the time they were….what…17, 18, 19…21? For what reason? Why is it necessary?

People can manage ganz fine never drinking at all their whole lives if they choose to. What do they gain from alcohol??????????????? What are the benefits, please, please, please tell me! Also please don’t take my word for it, speak to others such as Rabbi Dr. Benzion Twersky, Rabbi Yanky Horowitz, Dr. David Pelcovitz, etc. there are a slew of prominent Rebbeim and physicians dealing with the fallout of kids and alcohol. Oh yes ask any Hatzolah member as well.

PBA and Brisker, Alcohol serves a purpose in moderation. As far as kids are concerned when you reach the legal age of drinking you can “choose” whether you want to or not but always know that Jews use alcohol in moderation for kiddush and l’chaim. That is the message WE must teach our children. Even I didn’t tell my kids alcohol is the devil’s milk.

I made 3 weddings b”h, none with an open bar. We had what is known as a “champaign bar”. WE served only wine and no one had any complaints. They were all very lebedick simchas, B”H everyone was on a high from the simcha and not from the booze. No one got drunk and no one made fools of themselves.

RB, again. I was not going to go into my speech. YOU asked remember?

Aries:

I agree, it serves a purpose in moderation. I don’t really see any harm in giving it to your kids in appropriate amounts, and I think it reinforces the message of responsible drinking.

RE weddings:

I have been at many many weddings and have never seen the behavior which is criticized- even when many guys were drunk. In fact, at the weddings where everyone was stoned, we often got compliments on how nice it was that nobody was drunk.

the halacha of chayav inish livisumay, which is a chiyuv on a man to drink is throughout the entire year not just on purim.

I agree with PBA; alcohol is fine in moderation.

I suppose that is only fair and equal.

All states have an exemption for religious purposes.

The OP was asking about serving alcohol at tishen and onegs. Kiddish is for religious purposes; tishen and onegs are not. There is no halacha to drink at a tish or oneg.

RB, as a person who has been able to learn from his parents and keep his alcohol consumption in check I congratulate you. As a teen mentor and a community activist who has had this discussion with doctors, mechanchim and Hatzolah members as well as sitting in on lectures they gave on this very same subject I can clearly and without a shadow of a doubt say they would ALL disagree with you.

real-brisker: As a Jewish mentor and a community activist who has had this discussion with Rabbonim and mechanchim as well as sitting in on lectures they gave on this very same subject I can clearly and without a shadow of a doubt say they would all AGREE with you.

tmb – lol!

A state prohibition on alcoholic consumption by minors which interferes with a sacramental requirement of the minor’s religion would be unconstitutional under the New York State and US constitutions, regardless of any provisions or lack of exemptions in the statutes. That leads us to the question of what kinds of alcoholic consumption are protected religious activity. Wine at Shabbos kiddush, wine at a Pesach seder, are surely religious. Scotch on Friday night – I don’t think so.