June 25, 2018 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1546177HaimyParticipant
Amudim recommends no locks on a child or teen bedroom doors, parents should check bedrooms every so often so that children feel that their being monitored, & use caution before leaving older boys babysitting. (Stated at a public asifa by Amudim, video available online)
Why? Because a significant amount of abuse is being done by older siblings (brothers)& other relatives.
Bein hazmanim, with it’s lack of structure is unfortunately when much family abuse occurs. It doesn’t matter how big a masmid your son is, the yitzra darayos is burning like a fire.
This type of abuse can destroy family peace & leave lasting scars.
Parents need to be vigilant about the safety of their children.
This is a real problem that only Amudim had the courage to bring out into the open.
I personally know of one very impulsive bachur who harmed both siblings & cousins without anyone realizing until years later.
May we only see nachas from our children.June 25, 2018 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1546194
There is no Y”H for incest today.June 25, 2018 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1546214
An unlocked door allows parents to get in at any time, which can make a child feel less safe. Children need to be protected from their parents.June 25, 2018 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1546229
They’re wrong. The general public does not need to worry about sibling abuse when there’s no specific reason to worry. It is extremely rare. And to make a general warning is absurd. Amudim has many opinions that are wrong and aren’t the experts they pretend to be.June 25, 2018 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1546233MDGParticipant
“There is no Y”H for incest today.”
Generally speaking, but there can be exceptions. Stuff happens.June 25, 2018 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1546271
Everything “happens”. But to make it a general problem that people have to take concrete steps to prevent is absurd.June 25, 2018 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1546273
They’re wrong. The general public does not need to worry about sibling abuse when there’s no specific reason to worry. It is extremely rare. And to make a general warning is absurd. Amudim has many opinions that are wrong and aren’t the experts they pretend to be.
Joseph , you seem to know who arent the experts. Please fill is in with a list of experts who are true experts?June 25, 2018 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1546265
The concern is not about a special yetzer hara, it’s about the regular one.June 25, 2018 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1546266anonymous JewParticipant
Joseph, what is your source that helped you determine that it is rare? I’ve not heard of Amudim but can you cite your proof that they are wrong?
yitzchokm, how do know there is no longer a y’h’ for itJune 25, 2018 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1546307
yitzchokm and Joseph (who often are in sync) – wishful thinking isn’t fact. You have no clue. Many rabbeim have spoken in public stating that boys and girls bedrooms should not be on the same floor of the house unless the parents bedroom is there as well. This is the message from rabbeim and some poskim to the KLAL. So go to some other thread and talk about cigarettes or the joys of beating your wife or other allegedly torahdik habits and leave this one to people who have some knowledge.June 25, 2018 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1546310
Everything “happens”. But to make it a general problem that people have to take concrete steps to prevent is absurd.
This is precisely what was said some 20 odd years ago when molestation rumors started to surface. Just for the record, molestation issues and incest issues are not reserved to any type of person or religion. It can affect anyone anywhereJune 25, 2018 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1546311
Joseph’s source is from the fact that there is no longer a Y”H for incest.
Its a gemarah in Yuma, 69b
אמר להו חזו דאי קטליתו ליה לההוא כליא עלמא חבשוהו תלתא יומי ובעו ביעתא בת יומא בכל ארץ ישראל ולא אשתכח אמרי היכי נעביד נקטליה כליא עלמא ניבעי רחמי אפלגא פלגא ברקיעא לא יהבי כחלינהו לעיניה ושבקוהו ואהני דלא מיגרי ביה לאיניש בקריבתהJune 25, 2018 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1546316
Syag, that’s total baloney. I challenge you to name any rabbonim who said that. I make this challenge since I know you’ll find an excuse not to since it isn’t so. If they had said this to the KLAL clearly what they said and who said it would be well known and you’d have been able to name them. But it ain’t so and we both know that.June 25, 2018 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #1546332
Syag Lchochma, take some advice from your screen name and learn something.
Not only isn’t it osser to sleep on the same floor, according to halacha there’s no isser of yichud between siblings. Although R Moshe suggest that siblings should not live together long-term.
And BTW, I still don’t smoke and my wife asked me to tell you they I don’t beat her regularly.June 26, 2018 12:04 am at 12:04 am #1546341
yitzchok – thanks for attacking the screenname, a sure sign that you have nothing to say on the topic.
Joseph – You don’t have to like it but that doesn’t change the facts. And if the only way for you to refute the FACTS is by pretending I made them up then feel free. I don’t lie.
And speaking of sources, you’re the one with the imaginary statistics. Perhaps you went into a few neighborhood schools and said, “everyone who has molested their sister please raise your hand” ?June 26, 2018 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1546346
Syag Lchochma, thanks for attacking my “attack” and ignoring my response to your dribble. A sure sign that you have nothing to say on the topic.June 26, 2018 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1546344
Syag Lchochma, thanks for attacking my “attack” and ignoring my response to your dribbleJune 26, 2018 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1546349
And I’m proven correct for the umpteenth time. When in the hot seat she couldn’t give a single name. Next will come the excuses and the attacks.June 26, 2018 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1546357
oh wise one, I beg your forgiveness for not allowing your attack to go without a response. How is it dribble to have different facts? And what part of your answer required a response? none. You said your piece, I believe you are wrong. You disagreed with me. I still have very good reason to know you are wrong, but there is also no point in saying so because the conversation isn’t going anywhere. just like it didn’t last time. If you ever look into the subject and feel like having an exchange, let me know.June 26, 2018 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1546365
Not only is it OK for siblings to sleep on the same floor, their parents can literally live somewhere else for days at a time. Parents most definitely don’t need to have a bedroom on the same floor.
Oh wise one, please indicate which rabnum call for these measures
Some advice, stop making things up because you THINK they should be that wayJune 26, 2018 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1546367
You never met me, but you know that my rov never said that. Okay. then how would further conversation be useful? And then you throw in three comments that you copied from my posts.
hey, whatever works for you.June 26, 2018 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1546370Shopping613 🌠Participant
Most abuse happens by someone the child knows, so it does have a good chance to be a family member.
Although I usually hear more about cousins, uncles, etc and not siblings. I think siblings is rarer but it definitely still happens. I know some people…
In any case, you need to stay vigilant, but be normal.June 26, 2018 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1546373☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I have no opinion on the matter, but I will say that not naming a rov certainly doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
I wouldn’t want to name a specific posek (of course, except when something has been published) for a couple of reasons even if I heard something directly from him.June 26, 2018 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1546397anonymous JewParticipant
Joseph, nice move. You attacked Syag for not providing sources, while hypocritically failing to provide the factual basis for yours.June 26, 2018 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1546395ShmullyGreenParticipant
This is nothing new. Both The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and RAINN websites say that the vast majority of crimes against children are committed by by the victim’s own family, ‘church’ clergy, and family friends – not released offenders. The danger to children is greater from someone they or their family knows than from a stranger. Letourneau 2010 in a study funded by the DOJ also found that 94% of crimes are committed by a non offender. While we can’t say everyone is a maniac, understanding where the risk really is should be our first step.June 26, 2018 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1546388
DY, fair point
Some more information re R Moshe and siblings living together.
Slight intro, R Moshe differentiate incestuous relationships between father and daughter versus siblings. There is never an issue with yichud between father and daughter Whereas, siblings can have an issue.
(the difference is that father/daughter never WAS a Y”H. There used to be a Y”H between siblings and can become a problem if they love together on a permanent bases and become very comfortable with each other)
The SA states that it’s mutter for siblings to live together on a temporary basis and parents live with their children (dad and daughter) on a permanent basis. There is a dispute among the poskim what what constitutes temporary basis.
R Moshe holds that the temporary basis means more than 30 days. After 30 days it’s forbidden to live together. (taking a one day brake doesn’t help)
He goes on to say, that if people suspect that the siblings have a permanent residence together, then the 30 day limit doesn’t apply and they must separate immediately.
An example of siblings living together in a permanent basis is two siblings visiting a city for a period of time, may not rent an apartment even for less than 30 days since the time they do live together is on permanent fashion (they’re not “visiting” each other)
Siblings learning together in Israel (the boy in yeshiva, the girl in seminary) may never rent an apartment together
There’s absolutely no issue with siblings living together long term, permanently, if the parents are living in the home as well. There absolutely no problem with yichud.
Lastly, he states that if parents are taking a long trip, such as a trip to Israel, it’s better that they don’t leave a brother and a sister alone and RECOMMENDS leaving some kind of babysitter. He specifies this is only in a case where there are exactly two siblings living at home, a brother and a sister and no one else.
(my two sense: from R Moshe’s language it seems that the problem with siblings living together, is becoming too close and initiating a forbidden relationship, versus any kind of abuse.)June 26, 2018 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1546426
live together , not love.
Virtually none of the statistics include SIBLING Abuse.June 26, 2018 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1546427
Statistically, you yourself are not that unlikely to be an abuser.June 26, 2018 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1546488
How do you figure?June 26, 2018 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1546490catch yourselfParticipant
What’s with all the vitriol in the CR recently? I thought this was a place for thoughtful, dispassionate debate, not violent rhetoric.
[By the way, Yitzchokm, I would ask that you end the moratorium and respond to my posts on the “smoking hurts others” thread, which bring up an angle to that issue not previously touched upon in that discussion, as far as I saw.]
Amudim is a very highly regarded organization, which is strongly endorsed by many leading Rabbanim. They have a lot of experience dealing with terrible things that have actually occurred. It is possible that the policies they are advocating are slightly over-vigilant, but I don’t think they are extravagantly so, and we are discussing a potential catastrophe, so I think it makes sense to be a little bit extra cautious.
Quoting the Gemara which says that the Yetzer Hara for Arayos doesn’t apply to close relatives certainly doesn’t change the facts for those people who were actually abused. The reality is that in current times, the Yetzer Hara for Arayos is not necessarily limited in the ways described by Chazal, and this does not refer exclusively to relatives. We can stick our heads in the sand, but that’s the situation.June 26, 2018 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1546494zahavasdadParticipant
For most people having Siblings sleep on different floors is almost impossible, Many people live in Ranch Houses or live in ApartmentsJune 26, 2018 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1546526
I think we need to separate parents and children, or at the very minimum install a third-party observer in homes with minor children, since statistically parental abuse FAR FAR exceeds that of sibling abuse. Parents certainly should not be alone in a child’s room with only the child (or children.)June 26, 2018 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1546533The little I knowParticipant
You raised a critical point for the discussion. The statistics do not protect the victim, however occasional or uncommon it may be. And statistics also do not dictate the measures of protection that the public needs.
What statistics do speak to is the development of public policy. Having stated that, let’s examine the subject matter a bit closer. The point is that the volume of abuse that occurs within the home is far from insignificant, and that there needs to be some attention to this. A bunch of years ago, when the molestation topic made it into the media, there was a flurry of attention and focus on yeshivos and camps. Not only was there public outrage, but it went in several directions. There were those who made rash, impulsive, and irrational pronouncements about our yeshivos being danger zones. Others were similarly branding all mechanchim etc. as potential criminals. There was opposing outrage about the baseless generalizations and the indicting of innocent people, plus the damage to yeshivos and camps. When the Torah establishment did not react with extremes to this, the anger toward the Gedolim, the Agudah, etc. was extreme. The advocates and fanatics were deaf to the messages from virtually all who were in the know, that the overwhelming majority of abuse occurs within the home. I applaud Amudim for doing all they do, being level headed, doing genuine advocating on behalf of victims. They also put their money where their mouth is.
Perpetrators tend to look to the closest place to act out, and home is the most accessible. Amudim calls attention to child’s play that can progress to more serious stuff. They are correct.June 26, 2018 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1546583
I think we need to separate parents and children, or at the very minimum install a third-party observer in homes with minor children, since statistically parental abuse FAR FAR exceeds that of sibling abuse. Parents certainly should not be alone in a child’s room with only the child (or children.
Is that why you are so pro multiple wives, so that each wife can watch over the other one to make sure there is no parent child abuse?June 26, 2018 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1546607HaimyParticipant
They are not talking about incest they referring to inappropriate touch. By the way Chazak prohibited yichud even with close family when there is a porutz. A significant number of people fit that category.
Amudim recommends that the guidelines of yichud be applied even even with some family members due to the reality they are aware of.
This is the world we are living in whether we like it or not.June 26, 2018 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1546614
Takes2: On what basis do you assume a mother is less abusive than a father? There is certainly more abusive mothers than abusive siblings. All families must take actions to protect children from abusive mothers AND from abusive fathers way before worrying about the much less likely issue of sibling abuse than parental abuse.June 26, 2018 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #15466661Participant
Joseph “the general public doesn’t need to worry.” You aren’t qualified to comment on this because you don’t have kids. It does happen. The yetzer harah has an open door for any sin.June 26, 2018 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1546678
1, none of my kids or grandkids have ever encountered this issue. But that isn’t relevant to this discussion.
But even you admit parental abuse is more pervasive than sibling abuse. What are you doing to keep parents away from children unsupervised? Since parental abuse is both worse and more frequent than sibling abuse, something virtually everyone agrees about, it’s more important to keep parents away from their children unsupervised than keeping siblings away from each other unsupervised.June 26, 2018 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1546689It is Time for TruthParticipant
The Din is for these and similar.., that “in a locale where the peope parutz ( leaning more licentious)”we are supposed to be stricter and raise the barriersJune 26, 2018 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1546726MRS PLONYParticipant
This started out as a PSA and turned into a moshev laitzim. Some people are trying to warn us to protect our children and some posters (you know who you are) are saying “No, don’t bother.”
Hey, trolls, WHAT are you trying to accomplish? You want to enable abuse? Mods, this thread might be doing more harm than good.June 26, 2018 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1546679It is Time for TruthParticipant
” caution before leaving older boys babysitting”
22% of abuse is done by females.
and another several % is done by males and females in tandem togetherJune 26, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1546913a maminParticipant
Unfortunately, there is reason to be concerned! I personally know of a suicide that occurred because someone abused his siblings and when her marriage was ruined, everything came out in the open. There are so many people out there who need help who are unfortunately NOT getting it in the right places! HASHEM YISHMOR!
How many marriages are ruined because one of the partners were abused and they hid it, or covered up for so long? This is not something you hear about when you ask shidduch information!June 26, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1546898
I tried finding more information on amudim’s psa but couldn’t. Their last media notices that went out was in regards to opioids and alcohol abuse. What’s your source for this? A speech? Email blast?June 26, 2018 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1546889
That din only comes to play when there is an prohibition of yichud to begin with.
For example, one woman can be in an office together with two kosher men. If one of them are a Parutz then it’s yichud.
Obviously, if the brother or sister is known to have a weakness for this sort of behavior, it would be improper for them to be alone together.June 26, 2018 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1546879Midwest2Participant
After utilizing my psychological training and literary analysis skills, I have come to the conclusion that Joseph and yitzhokm are the same person, and both are trolls 🙂
Also that both need attention more than they need to verify their comments with fact or common sense.June 26, 2018 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1546990
If we’re both the same person, how are we both trolls! 😀June 26, 2018 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1546969
Every safety measure comes at a cost.June 26, 2018 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1546966think 2Participant
Should I come to your home and knock on your door to cry to you in person?
Would you believe me then?
Are you so cold hearted in “real” life too, or only when posting online? ? ?June 26, 2018 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1546960
So far not a single person has given a coherent or cogent reason why the general public, who the vast vast majority never has and never will have a problem of sibling abuse, should take greater precautions against the rarity of sibling abuse than against parental abuse, which occurs at a far far greater frequency than sibling abuse.
If you’re going to recommend not leaving siblings together with siblings unsupervised in their room you surely should recommend not allowing parents in their children’s room without a third party present.June 26, 2018 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1547012
Joseph are we talking sexual abuse or mental or physical abuse
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