Amudim: Abuse often occurs within your home .

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    I assume the former

    a mamin

    @Joseph, unfortunately , you are not in touch with reality. I know of many such cases nebach! There are many divorces in our community , and many of them have this as a strong reason!


    I alos know of a family where 2 boys abused their sis ter R”L
    I do not know what the Halacha is….
    I just think it is very important to teach children that no one can touch them and tell them u love them and they must tell u if anyone touched them
    I never heard the Halacha of a dad and daughter not living together – what about a widower????


    “I never heard the Halacha of a dad and daughter not living togeth”

    Who told you this halacha? There’s no question it’s ok

    Letakein Girl

    2 of my friends, as well as one other person who is friends with my friend, were molested by their brothers. So from this teenage girl’s perspective, Amudim is absolutely spot on in saying this.

    Parents- please do your duty and protect your children!!


    What are the protective measures you would suggest parents take to prevent abuse from their spouse or themselves? Because I can assure you that if you would recommend any ideas that wouldn’t affect normal daily life, many cautious parents would be glad to apply them.
    The point is, we take the measures we can – even if there are bigger dangers for which we have no way of protecting ourselves. Not putting locks on your childrens’ doors and checking in on them sounds pretty reasonable and sensible, and shouldn’t affect the quality of life for anyone, even if they were never in danger.
    As an aside, I know a rosh kollel who over the years had had 2 different yungeleit share with him that they were struggling in married life because their wives were abused by brothers. I just wonder how many others did NOT share their painful stories.


    Children are people. Don’t make decisions about them without them.

    Shopping613 🌠

    Letakein! Long time no see around these part!
    I totally agree.

    🍫Syag Lchochma

    Mind over chatter – beautiful post. Informative, honest and easy to read.
    Joseph has an excellent , foolproof method he recommends over and over. Just pretend it isn’t happening, actually insist on it, and POOF, there is goes!


    That is horrible indeed.
    However this may come as a surprise to the younger generations ,but these things have happened before ..In many locales.
    And Guess what?
    Our communities grew arguably stronger ,bigger,more durable, all the while it being was pushed under the rug.And that was due to a cohesive trust
    Today due to all the hand wringing;washing dirty linen in public; and public strictures, we plausibly are beginning to fall apar.t And this is due to distrust.,in large part everybody has become suspect.
    though of course every incident should be appropriately dealt with to separate perpetrator and victims


    Mind over chatter, Interesting .
    Is it however, possible to ever stop everything?
    How about babysitters with diapers?Should we ban it?Ask therapists in that field.has been a problem


    IITFT: Excellently stated post.


    It’s time for the truth, drug abuse, mental health problems, and suicide were pushed under the rug as well. So yes co.munities grew in numbers, but how would you say stronger or more durable when the methodology of growing strong communities is pushing things under the rug?


    IITFT, how about a Nannycam?


    Let’s be honest with ourselves, our chinuch system does little to educate young men as they begin to mature so many go underground to find things out on their own. How many bachurim even have one conversation with an adult about the difficult challenges they face? Very few. This creates a dangerous situation for them & their families. This is one of the most difficult but unspoken issues facing our generation.


    an attempt to be rhetorical?
    Given:In the 60s,’70s ,and ’80s our communities pushed all these things under the rug
    Given :In the 60s,’70s ,and ’80s our communities grew by leaps and bounds above the curve.So much so, we wax nostalgic today



    What about the bathroom?
    What if she changes the diaper in a different room, away from The Nanny cam?


    It’s time, I’m questioning whether our communities are “str9nger” or “more durable”. I believe that was clear


    Let’s be honest with ourselves, our chinuch system does little to educate young men as they begin to mature so many go underground to find things out on their own. How many bachurim even have one conversation with an adult about the difficult challenges they face? Very few. This creates a dangerous situation for them & their families. This is one of the most difficult but unspoken issues facing our generation.

    I thought that bore repeating.


    However this may come as a surprise to the younger generations, but these things
    have happened before… in many locales. And guess what? Our communities grew
    arguably stronger, bigger, more durable, all the while it being was pushed under the rug.

    So what? The point here is individuals, not whether any of this affects communal growth.


    Keep the Nanny Cam in the same room as the changing table.


    Some nanny cams can be hacked, so I don’t know if it’s a good idea in your own home. Unless you suspect someone, in which case that risk may outweigh the risk of being hacked.


    Randomex, you are spot-on. Does It Is Time For Truth really think that we should keep ignoring abuse? IITFT, if it (CH”V) happened to your loved ones, I think (hope) you would feel differently.


    Studies have shown that many abusers were abused themselves in the past.
    Pushing things under the rug, ignoring an issue because it “only” affects a small minority, seems like the best way to perpetuate the cycle, to the point where the small minority won’t be so small anymore, R”L. Is that what we want as a community, or do we want to take precautions that will safeguard all of our children?

    The little I know


    You wrote: “Studies have shown that many abusers were abused themselves in the past.”

    This statistic has some merit, and inferring a causal relationship sounds logical. However, it can be badly misused, and this is highly destructive. I don’t recall the percentages cited in the studies, but they are not huge or anywhere approaching majority. I have heard people suggest that an abuse victim needs to be viewed as a potential perpetrator. I can hardly think of something more cruel and murderous, aside from shooting someone at point blank range. The overwhelming majority of victims never, ever become perpetrators. To criminalize a victim as a perpetrator is as abusive as a molester, perhaps more. The statistic must be understood in its true context. It may help us understand the mentality of the abuser, and might be considered a needed element of the therapy that he may undergo. But it is NOT meaningful or true to view abuse as a trigger for a continuing cycle, that the victim will convert into a perpetrator. It is untrue, statistically unfounded, and murderous when used this way.


    Rand0m3x ,
    One who concerns themselves about public issues, ought to keep both “reb Yisroel” AND “Klal Yisroel” in balance

    Irrelevant.Better,difficult as it often is, to be objective than subjective.

    irrelevant to this discussion,unless one assumes that in recent years/decades it has gotten much worse. Which is possible.

    Shopping613 🌠

    @Winnie @The Little I Know

    “Studies have shown that many abusers were abused themselves in the past.”


    But abusers often abuse more than 1 victim. Not all victims end up abusers, especially because as the statistic stands, 1/3 of women will be sexually harassed or abused in their lifetime, and at least 1/3 of the women I know if not more, this holds true for. But are 1/3 of the female population abusers? Absolutely not.

    See yes, most abusers were abused. But that doesn’t mean most victims end up abusers. The population of victims is MUCH higher than the population of abusers.


    If you’re concerned about nanny cam hackers, there are ways to protect against them. But also, you can position the camera in a way that it doesn’t record anything too private but still lets you see enough that it serves its purpose.

    Been There

    The facts are correct. I was molested by 2 of my older brothers. One of the times was on a Shabbos afternoon in a bedroom across from where my parents were sleeping. I was too young to know what was happening. And as I grew older I was too scared to say no.
    Molestation is not a ta’avah, it is an illness.
    To combat this silent mageifah in our community is not through denial or nanny cams.
    1. It is through awareness.
    2. We need to empower our children with the knowledge of personal safety. there is an incredible children’s book published by Feldheim called Talking About Personal Safety. I highly recommend it as the perfect conversation for kids. It is informative, empowering and not scary at all.
    3. And we need to believe children when they said they have been inappropriately touched and give them the proper help. If it was by a sibling, that sibling needs help too.


    It would be unfair not to mention in this forum the abuse that goes on in many Professional Centers and offices that provide services to children that go for help with their abusive parents. The parents are mandated by either court order or other means to take them and the “ so called Therapists” do nothing to stop the abuse for years! We should not stand by idly and ignore!
    Children have spoken and in particular one big Mosad that idolizes this therapist allows him to abuse these children. We need to open our eyes and ears to our Communities services and peek in to see where our Tzedukah dollars and tax dollars go! Is it worthwhile to continue funding organizations that cause us Shame!

    The little I know


    You are correct. I feel a need to take the point a bit farther. You accurately proved that the statistics do not show that victims become abusers. I am not challenging that for those that do, there could be a cause-effect happening. But I am stating categorically that the numbers of this are so low that it is abusive and worse to encounter a victim and label him/her as a potential abuser. I have seen that happen, and it is catastrophic. It revictimizes the victim, and the truth to support that concept is nowhere to be found.

    Shopping613 🌠

    It would be correct to say most abusers were victims.
    it is incorrect to say someone went through something and thefore will turn into something in the future.

    The little I know


    Actually, it is not correct to say that most abusers were victims. There is no such statistic. What does exist is that there is a preponderance among abusers of a history of victimization. This is a number, quite low, but statistically significant – which means that this is not a spurious, chance finding. If you think there is a finding that places the percentage higher, please share your data. I have studied this matter, and the numbers are not that great.


    It is true that abuse can occur in the home, However Im not sure that seperating siblings or parents from children as a rule (as opposed to an exception) is such a good idea


    TLIK, Shopping: If the abuser was a victim, should that be a mitigating factor if his abusing others was a cause-effect of his having been abused?


    Statistics of general society show, that victims of abuse who go to the army, do better in life than those who do not.
    Is there something we can create to copy that?
    Are there some things we can glean from this?


    I find the idea that trying to protect our community’s children from abuse
    could threaten the community’s fabric/growth hard to take seriously.


    Shopping, that statistic is meaningless without detailing what it counts
    as such (which probably can’t be done in this forum, I know).


    I googled a bit and found as a top hit an article in Amer. J. Pysch. from the early 1990s that surveyed abusers and found that 35% of male abusers were themselves abused; there was no correlation for female abusers. I think abuse included all kinds of abuse. They did not address in this study what % of victims become abusers.
    Reading a bit more, I found that one factor that contributed to a victim becoming an abuser was that they believed that what they experienced was not bad- i.e. that they deserved the abuse, that other adults supported the abuser.
    I think this is the critical point-as TLIK stated, victims are not doomed to repeat the cycle. But if we want victims to heal and become productive, healthy members of society, then we must acknowledge the abuse, oust the abusers, deal with problems and not hide them under the rug as was done in previous times, and of course, doing so prevents the abuse from continuing and the abuser from gathering more victims.

    The little I know


    The data you looked for that you didn’t find is quite difficult to find anywhere. Firstly, the subject here is about molestation, not other forms of abuse. Secondly, one would need a decently representative sample of all victims, and this is just about impossible. The ones who never report and never disclose are every bit as central to the discussion, and these would never have been sampled. The hesitation even in the general population to disclose is massive, and lead many of the researchers to recognize this in the inferences to draw from their research.


    You wonder whether the history of being a victim might be a mitigating factor in the prosecution of a perpetrator. Firstly, I would bet that every defense attorney would try this defense. Logic is obvious. It converts the perpetrator into a victim, and that tends to gains clemency from a jury, and judge. It also suggests that the perpetrator acted on a biologically determined urge, not ordinary evil thought. That is also intended as a defense. I am not sure whether this actually works much in court. How often does the rapist push the agenda that the victim asked for the crime to be committed? Can’t speak for past history, but this no longer works at all in today’s courts. Ask around by some lawyer friends.


    No, it is not possible to stop everything. Anything, for that matter. Who ever said it was? Giving safety advice is definitely not a pretense to fool-proof your life. We do our normal hishtadlus, daven and leave the rest to Hashem.
    You consider banning babystitters changing diapers equivelant to not putting locks on kids’ doors and checking in on them? I’m talking in terms of practicality, cost, and general interference with daily life.


    If you read the news and the stats, most abuse does occur within the home, including by siblings. We can’t ignore the possibility, and there are some ways to guard against it:

    1) Know your children. Make sure they feel they can tell you about anything that upsets them. You don’t have to get too specific, just let them know you’re always there and won’t get angry no matter what.

    2) Get Rabbi Yakov Horowitz’s excellent book for children on how to be safe. There are several editions, targeted for Yeshivish, Chassidic, MO, etc., in English, Hebrew and Yiddish. They are very well done and cover the ground without getting sensational or needing uncomfortable explanations by parents.

    3) If you have any questions, you can contact R’ Horowitz. He has a website, email and phone, all listed on his website. You can always look it up at your local library if you don’t have internet or iphone.

    4. Have someone you can consult if you have doubts. And remember that NEFESH, the frum organization for mental health, can put you in touch with someone anonymously if you’re in doubt.

    And can’t everybody on this thread remember that IT’S THE THREE WEEKS.

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