August 3, 2016 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #618071
I’m sorry if I have bad English but I’ll give it a try.
In Israel, there’s for example Litvish, Chassidish of different groups, Zionists religious, etc.. and they usually don’t mix with each other..
In the Charedim, if your daughter didn’t learn at a seminary it will be difficult for her to find a shiduch, the same if she wants someone who combine a job. Or a male who also have a job.
How is it like in America?
What about places like Yeshiva university, which probably won’t be acceptable among Charedim in Israel. Or shearim college for women? I just mention what I know..
How is it like for girls who studied in Hebrew day school or Orthodox day school and didn’t went to a seminary in shiduchim? And what is the difference between them?
How is it like between Ashkenaz and Sphardic jews baal tshuva or FFB, converts or different groups like chassidish and litvish?
How open they are to different technologies like smartphones or internet?August 3, 2016 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #1163808akupermaParticipant
The lines in America are less clear, and the further you move from New York, the fuzzier they get it. The smaller the Jewish community, the better different groups get along. America’s education system is more flexible, so someone can never study secular subjects in school and then sit down, study for and pass a test, and go to college – and college can be done online. America’s anti-discrimination laws and tradition of religious tolerance protect Hareidim, whereas the public policy of secular Israelis is to be “free” from religion. America banned conscription generations ago, so there is no need to decide on army service, unlike in Eretz Yisrael where that decision fixes ones place in society.August 3, 2016 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1163809mddMember
Moderator, this is a troll job which is going to bring out lashon horah, motzei shem ra, speaking ill of Klal Yisroel. Please, act now.August 3, 2016 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1163810
?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? …. ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??????
????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?? 🙂
??? ??? ?? ?? ?:”??? ?? ????? ?____ ????? ???? ??….” ?? ??? ???? ?????
??????? ??????? ??? ????
Mods: if you don’t understand use google translate 🙂August 3, 2016 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1163811
What does it have to do with lashon horah? I didn’t ask you to condemn anyone, individual or a group.
I got a few shidduch suggestions of girls who would like to live in north america and I just want to understand how life is there.
?????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????????, ????.August 3, 2016 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1163812
Akuperman is right that the lines are much less clear in the US, and outside of the New York/New Jersey areas they are even less clear. In Israel, one really has to choose whether he is Chareidi or Dati-Leumi. These are very definite labels and they determine everything including what schools you send your kids to, who your Rabbanim are, and what your kids end up doing after high school.
In the United States, there are not such clear-cut labels, and it is possible to get away with having no label at all.
I agree with you Penp that it is very important to know the differences between America and Israel for shidduchim. I have dated in both Israel and the US. When I am in Israel, I am not likely to date a guy who is not Chareidi, but in the US, I am much more open to dating guys with different labels.
In the US, I don’t have to define the guy by his label, because in the United States, someone who is not Chareidi can still have a chareidi Rav and send his kids to the same schools that I would. Also, the Zionist issues (like whether or not we should send our sons to the army) are not really issues there. The only Zionist issue in the US is whether or not he says Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, and who cares?
Another difference between the US and Israel is that in the US people don’t usually use the terms Chareidi and Dati Leumi. The equivalent terms are Yeshivish and Modern Orthodox, but they don’t mean exactly the same things as Chareidi and Dati Leumi. It is also confusing because the term ‘Yeshivish’ is used in different ways by different people/communities.
If someone has Chareidi hashkafos but doesn’t dress Yeshivish or watches movies or goes to college/work, he would not be considered Yeshivish by most people in the American Chareidi world, but most Modern Orthodox people would call him Yeshivish.
The term Modern Orthodox is also confusing since it has a wide range of meanings. It can refer to someone who doesn’t keep all the halachos (for example, hilchos tznius), or it can refer to someone who is makpid on halacha but does not have Chareidi hashkafos (generally in terms of issues such as Zionism, Feminism, secular studies and listening to Daas Torah). Sometimes, the term Modern Orthodox is used by people simply because they do not feel comfortable in the Yeshivish world for sociological reasons, since it’s not the type of community they grew up in.
Hope that helps. You can ask me to clarify if you want. I have lived and worked and dated in different types of communities in both countries so it is a topic that I am fairly well-versed in.August 3, 2016 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1163813
akuperma and lilmod ulelamaid, thanks for your help.
I will give some example, I got a shidduch suggestion of a girl who consider herself yeshivish, she studied at a seminary in Israel for one or two years (can’t remember exactly), she dress modestly but uses facebook, she says it’s only to use with her friends(girls).
I personally don’t like FB, but maybe it’s more okay in America and I shouldn’t be worried?August 3, 2016 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1163814Rabbi of CrawleyParticipant
In america you are not ruled by the evil kefirah zionist regime which allows you to grow in your yiddishkeit in a way which would not be possible in eretz yisrael, also life does not revolve around poverty, you will get used to decent shopping malls , clean streets, nice shuls, comfortable homes, proffesional storekeepers and basically earning more than you spendAugust 3, 2016 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1163815
penp, as an american israeli I understand both mentalities. People in america can be very addicted (lihitmaker) to their facebook, twitter, and so on. They won’t admit it though.
I’m a teenager and my friends in the USA can be on it for HOURS. Documenting every part of their lives. But there are some who just have it becuase everyone else does and is not on it as much.
You my friend, need to do more research. You need to find out if she has a smartphone, try and find her profile from a friend’s computer to see how often she writes and what types of things she puts up.
Is it just when she does big things like vacations and outings or is she posting pictures of all her meals, talking to her friends for hours on it, and posting about things that should be private?
You have to see exactly where she is so you can know if you are comfortable with it. I understand you, the struggle is real. I also do not like FB. In any case if you do research and don’t find out enough about what is “yeshivish” I know this is not very normal, but perhaps she has a cousin, or relative you can call who will explain to you how open americans are with these things or even the family themselves.
Know one has to know you are calling for yourself, and I’m sure the family would understand seeing as you just want to understand the hashkafa before you can say yes becuase you don’t know if it’s matim for you.
I think you need to speak with someone. There are too many pratim to do this over the internet with a bunch of strangers.August 3, 2016 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1163816
penp – I think in America, it’s much more accepted. Things are not as black and white. I know very good girls who use facebook. I’m not saying I recommend it, but I definitely don’t think it’s a reason not to go out with someone. The fact that she dresses tzniusly is much more important than whether or not she uses fb.
At some point, you will need to clarify that you have similar views regarding what you would want your future home to look like in terms of internet, tv and movies. But I don’t think the fact that as a single girl, she is using fb is a reason to reject her, especially if she only uses it for friends (girls).August 3, 2016 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1163817
Rabbi, I almost died from laughter from that post. Hey RebYid and Popa, that’s the humor we need around here!! Sarcasm! I want 3 new threads made by the end of today, lol.August 4, 2016 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1163818I. M. ShluffinParticipant
@Rabbi: ???? ???? ??????? means that we can’t even say that the weather in Har Nof is bad. Implying negative connotations about Eretz Yisrael by comparing it to America’s luxuries is a form of lashon hara, no matter how true it may be. It should not even be done in jest.August 4, 2016 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1163819
When discussing Life in America, you must seperate NYC area and OOT (Out of Town) Things that might occur in NYC area do not occur elsewhere, People are more tribal and territorial in NYC area than they are out of town, where differnt groups of people are more willing to work together in a common goalAugust 4, 2016 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1163820
When you say it’s more accepted in America, is it also among yeshiva boys and seminary girls, also avrechim?
zahavasdad, So I understand if I’ll in America after marriage it’s better to stay of of NYC, even as a yeshiva bocher?August 4, 2016 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1163821JosephParticipant
The New York metro area, Brooklyn, Monsey and Lakewood, is the epicenter of Torah life in chutz l’aaretz.
By far a majority of frum Americans live in those areas alone.August 4, 2016 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1163822
Sorry, to burst your bubble. American did NOT ban conscription. It justr happens that we don’t currently use it. BUT, all 18 year old male citizens and many resident non-citizens must register with the US Selective Service System within 30 days of their 18th birthday so that if a draft is implemented it can work.
Failure to register will make one inelligible for Federal student loads, etc.
Disclaimer: This OOT Baal Habayis, local politician sits as an alternate on the regional Selective Service Review BoardAugust 4, 2016 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1163823JosephParticipant
What do regional Selective Service Review Board’s do (and how much work is it, how does one become a member and what does it pay)?August 4, 2016 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #1163824
South Florida has alot of Frum people too (Miami, Hollywood, Ft Lauderdale, Boca etc)August 4, 2016 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1163825
You just register for the draft (Selective Service is the official name) , you dont actually have to go, its a crime in the US not to register. You just register and be done with itAugust 4, 2016 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1163826SparklyMember
love life in America:)August 4, 2016 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1163827BarryLS1Participant
Rabbi of Crawley: Give it a rest already. We know how superior the government is in the U.S. and that the morality is better than ever in the U.S.
While there is much to be desired with the Israeli government, they fund Torah learning far more than any entity in our cumulative history.
Your Meraglim mentality would ever let you be objective, but the quality of life in Israel is far superior. Raising children here is infinitely better. I know people whose children were at risk, hanging around with the wrong crowd. B”H they made Aliyah. The quality of their friends and the positive peer pressure has been extremely beneficial for them.
There are plenty of poor people in the States. Even people making a reasonable income struggle. At least in Israel, tuitions and health insurance costs are very inexpensive. You don’t need the level of income in Israel to make ends meet.
More important, the level of Torah learning is so far superior than the levels in the U.S. You’d be shocked how much kids learn here compared to the U.S.
Not that any of this will mean anything to your hateful mind, but at least it may make a difference to others.
At this stage of history, with Moshiach on our doorstep, where do you thing Hashem wants us all to be? Hint, it’s not with Esav. The world is imploding for a reason.August 4, 2016 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1163828
1. The Selective Service Review Boards are civilians who hear appeals of the Selective Service classification assigned to registrants. With no active draft, we are held as a reserve. We receive a few hours training and get updates to laws, etc. to read and keep in our files. It is a volunteer position.
2. Register and forget it..NO. One must notify the Selective Service of any change in status. This INCLUDES change of address, marital status, criminal convictions, leaving full time school for the workforce. There are actually penalties for non compliance, but are not currently enforced.
The Selective Service still exists so that if G-d Forbid America needs to draft soldiers the mechanism is in place.
My Zaideh was drafted into the US Army during WWI (1918), My father during WWII(1942), FIL-Korea (1952) and oldest brother Viet Nam (1968). The local Selective Service Review Board sided with me on my appeal of classification in 1971 (bad eyesight) and I went from 1A..cannon Fodder to 4F. Stay safely in the states.August 4, 2016 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1163829Little FroggieParticipant
Some may be waiting for Moshiach to make the move. For some it’s not practical, or things may not work out. Rabbi Miller zatzal was against the move unless one was assured of a financial support system/stability. Of course things have changed since… but still there are a lot of considerations before one can actually make the move.
To those that were zoche and actually live there now.. Ashreichem! They’re privileged to be living in the King’s vicinity, palace! It comes, of course with a certain responsibility, a more sublime standard of living… but at the end of the day, it’s all worth it.
I was zoche just recently to spend three weeks in E.Y., while marrying off our son ?”?. I come there quite often, but never yet spend such a long span of time, nor took my whole family along.
Don’t take it from some of these people. ???? ???? ???? ????!!! Fascinating!! Both in Ruchnius and Gashmius!! Such beautiful places to visit.. so different. And all so (relatively) close!
I wrote about it in another thread. What I noticed about the people is they’re totally BUSY. From the morning (early morning) till night. There’s no lazying out there. Those who spend their time learning are (mostly) doing it with a zest, putting in full hours.. producing.. productive. See how many new seforim and pamphlets come out there.. Avodas HaShem like no where else. Then at the other end, those who are not engaged in this holy task, are at least being busy, productive, fulfilling, industrious. Everything there is fast paced.. the language (if one can follow..) ten miles opps I mean kilometers a minute).
A most unique land, for a most unique nation!!August 4, 2016 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1163830Rabbi of CrawleyParticipant
I use the torah as my guide not the balfour declarationAugust 5, 2016 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1163831BarryLS1Participant
Little Froggie: I understand that there are legit. reasons that people can’t make Aliyah right now. I have no issue with those people. The key is to want it. Also, for the most part, people with realistic expectations can make it work.
The shame is for those people who don’t care about the near or actual majority of world Jewry who live in Israel, who speak Loshon Horoh about it and act like the Meraglim and Erev Rav.
Rabbi of Crawley: Show me ONE place in the Torah that Hashem tells us to live in America.
Hashem did promise us that the Land will remain desolate until it’s time for Jews to come home. I guess you don’t believe in that Torah, especially since it actually happened that way. For the first time in the history of mankind that a desolate land came back to life.August 6, 2016 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1163832
When you say internet and FB are more accepted in America, is it also among yeshiva boys and seminary girls, also avrechim?August 7, 2016 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1163833popa_bar_abbaParticipant
1A to 4F seems like a very big change. Why not to 2B? Certainly somoene with bad eyesight makes a better soldier than someone with no legs.August 7, 2016 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1163834☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
penp – No.August 7, 2016 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1163835akupermaParticipant
When the United States had conscription (during the civil war, two world wars and the first half of the cold war), anyone who was especially frum would have had an exemption as a “divinity student.” At all points in America, someone who was strictly frum (and unwilling to rely on heterim given for Jews serving in armies in which “being too frum” resulted in a firing squad) would end up being kicked out of the military as being “unsuitable” (not dishonorable, but one didn’t get to serve). Those who wanted to serve in the military (and remember that during the most of the 20th century, America’s enemies tended to be vicious anti-semites) would rely on various heterim that most Bnei Torah would not accept.
Two factors are important to remember. America has a long tradition of “citizen soldiers” and in fact professional full time soldiers were a minimal part of the military prior to the cold war. And going back to the 18th century, Americans have regarded religious tolerance as a core value encouraging the military to either discharge or accommodate those seen as “too religious” (dating back to Washington’s problems getting New England’s Calvinists and the mid-Atlantic and Southern states “Anglicans” to work together, leading to religious tolerance becoming an American way of doing things). If someone was drafted and refused to eat anything cooked or to do any military work on Shabbos, America would discharge them rather than hang them.August 7, 2016 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1163836
2B did not exist at that time!
Draft Classifications during the Vietnam War
Draft Board Classifications
The following is a list of Selective Service classifications
that could be assigned by draft boards:
Available for military service
Conscientious objector available for noncombatant military service only
Member of the armed forces of the U.S., the Coast and Geodetic Survey, or the Public Health Service
Member of reserve component or student taking military training
Registrant not currently subject to processing for induction
Conscientious objector available for civilian work contributing to the maintenance of the national health, safety, or interest
Student deferred by statute (High School)
Registrant available for military service, but qualified for military only in the event of war or national emergency
Conscientious objector performing civilian work
contributing to the maintenance of the national health, safety, or interest
Registrant deferred because of civilian occupation (except agriculture or activity in study)
Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation
Registrant deferred because of study preparing for the ministry
Registrant deferred because of activity in study
Registrant with a child or children; registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents
Registrant who has completed service; sole surviving son
Official deferred by law
Minister of religion or divinity student
Registrant not qualified for any military service
Registrant exempt from service during peace (surviving son or brother)
Conscientious objector who has completed alternate service contributing to the maintenance of the national health, safety, or interest in lieu of induction into the Armed Forces of the United States
Registrant over the age of liability for military serviceAugust 7, 2016 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1163837popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Seems like I-Y would have been more appropriate.August 7, 2016 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1163838SparklyMember
come visit America and see for yourself.August 7, 2016 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1163839
we were at war. but having to wear glasses in a jungle war in steamy temperatures didn’t make a lot of sense.
Neither does your discussion of why I was assigned a particular draft status about 45 years ago.
First you question why I wasn’t assigned a classification that did not exist then you try to second guess a Selective Service Review Board who are all dead and buried. There are far more important things to discuss that affect our current and future livesAugust 7, 2016 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1163840yehudayonaParticipant
Akuperma, during the Vietnam War, many young men attended yeshivas primarily to avoid the draft. One yeshiva that attracted these young men was known as “the home of the Brooklyn dodgers.” Deferments for divinity students pretty much disappeared around the time that the lottery system went into effect. The draft ended in 1973.August 10, 2016 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1163841thechoiceismineMember
FOR PENP – There are plenty of American seminary girls who will tell you it is not normal to have a facebook page.
Knowing a few “typical” Israeli chareidi girls, I can tell you that there are many girls in America that have similar standards when it comes to technology.August 10, 2016 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1163842
There are definitely many American seminary girls who would consider it not normal to have a facebook page, but my impression is that there are others who would.
I think it depends on a lot of factors: 1. How many years out of seminary is she? If she is 10 years out of seminary, it is very different than if she is in seminary now.
2. What seminary did she go to? There are a lot of different types of seminaries.
3. What is her background like? She might be very Yeshivish but not from such a Yeshivish background. In that case, you have to look at things differently.
Basically, you really have to look at the individual and not jump to conclusions. You have to see what she is about, where she is coming from and most importantly, the direction that she is going in. It is important to look at the whole picture, and not only the details, especially if you are talking about a grey area. You do want to make sure that she is not addicted to internet and that you have similar views on having internet in your future homes and the way in which you want to bring up your kids, etc.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.