May 13, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2190109RR44Participant
I’m just wondering aloud, I assume that there must be a logical reason for this
I am not chas veshalom looking to criticize, just to understand
The hailige Chazon Ish, and many many others forbade using the Israeli electricity on shabbos.
They declared it both to be fprbidden as maaseh shabbos, and ossur as Chillul Hashem, showing lack of respect by using something created through issurei koreis and haforas bris.
The p’sak is widely accepted by the Israeli yeshivishe tzibbur – but nonetheless many are lenient.
Suddenly whne it comes to Angel’s bakery the abn has expanded to literally everywhere – as they say from Me’ah She’arim to Ramat Eshkol
Why are they worse than electricity? When does one say על כבודי לא מחיתם, על כבוד בשר ודם אתם מוחים?
Is there a simple difference that I simply fail to understand?May 13, 2023 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2190138☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
How is relying on the lenient opinions regarding electricity a bizayon haTorah?
The two issues are unrelated, I don’t understand why you think there’s a contradiction.May 14, 2023 12:10 am at 12:10 am #2190143
Your understanding of the electricity issue is misguided. It’s not a matter of boycotting Israeli electricity due to it being “disrespectful.” It’s a matter to directly benefitting from a Jew doing melachah on Shabbos (the power plan workers are presumably Jewish in Israel).May 14, 2023 12:11 am at 12:11 am #2190146☕️coffee addictParticipant
Other options?May 14, 2023 1:19 am at 1:19 am #2190153maxverstappenParticipant
one has hit close to home . as protesting outside a grand rabbi’s house is shameful.May 14, 2023 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2190274YFRBachurParticipant
Shabbos Electricity is, at the end of the day, a machlokes haposkim.
I heard personaly from one of the gedolie hapokim in the US, (who knows very well exactly the issues in EY, and would not pasken otherwise) that it is a CHUMRA of the chazon ish, and don’t worry about it, and he does’nt either (on his annual visits to EY, where he is respected by all of the local poskim).May 14, 2023 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #2190285GadolhadorahParticipant
There are powerplant workers in the U.S. who are also Jewish, although the numbers are obviously de minimis relative to those working for Chvrat Hahashmal. Do we not worry about it because the likelihood a jewish powerplant operator or worker in the NYISO or gPJM dispatch center is a Yid?May 14, 2023 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2190286
Please read the question before you try to answer. The question is that BESIDES for the halachic sha’ayla which is completely non-existent by Angels, there is ALSO the same problem of chillul Hashem. I don’t think there is a good answer. See the comments to this article https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2189515/harav-zilberstein-buy-angel-why-isnt-kavod-hatorah-important-to-you.html. Chas VISHALOM to criticize!? Do you know what Shalom means? Boycotting is the opposite of Shalom. The only half answer that I would say is that hopefully this is only a temporary protest.May 14, 2023 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2190287
It makes no sense to say it’s a chumrah. If it’s mutar, it’s due to pikuach nefesh (the hospitals need electricity), if it’s assur then it’s chillul Shabbos.May 14, 2023 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2190318
I think yes to answer your question. Also, I’m not an expert, but I would imagine it also matter that rov people using Israeli electricity are Jewish, so it’s melachah being done for Jews.May 15, 2023 6:23 am at 6:23 am #2190329Abba_SParticipant
The difference is choice. The boycott is just finding another source for bread and baked goods, while electricity, the choice is either use it or not on Shabbos. Most Jews can’t not survive without electricity for 24 hours or longer nor afford private generators for Shabbos. Also a lot has changed in the last 60 years as to how electricity is generated and who works on Shabbos ie. non Jews in order to avoid desecrating the Shabbos.May 15, 2023 6:24 am at 6:24 am #2190330Ray KaufmanParticipant
I have been a practicing electrical engineer for over 50 years and am currently involved in building two power plants in Israel. It is my observation that previous and current poskim did not and do not have a clear idea of how electricity is generated, distributed and used, or even what it is. The best, understanding, albeit still flawed, was that of R’ Shlomo Zalman, ZTL. The problem is that these Gedolim have to rely on “experts’ to explain the metzius and the technical details of the issue to be decided. That requires a basic level of specific knowledge, often lacking, to understand what the “expert” is saying. This leads to fundamental errors. As a simple example, I have seen articles and Piskei Teshuva that refer to a “flow of electrons” This is not correct. Electrons don’t flow. The remain in their in their respective atoms. What flows is the energy transmitted from atom to atom varying the energy state of the electrons in the process. Tis creates a varying magnetic field around the conductor in which the energy actually flows. This, and other misunderstandings, have resulted in, what i consider, erroneous psakim, or correct psakim for the wrong reasons.May 15, 2023 6:25 am at 6:25 am #2190332Ray KaufmanParticipant
Godol, Likewise, a significant percentage of !IEC workers and powerplant operators are Israeli Arabs, either Xtian or Muslim.May 15, 2023 10:21 am at 10:21 am #2190447
What you’re saying is the standard Conservative/Reform defense of electricity on Shabbos (eg. the poskim don’t know anything about anything, etc.). As usual, I’m saddened that this forum now let’s this stuff through.
As far as this issue goes, it doesn’t matter how electricity works. Power plant workers are doing melachah.May 15, 2023 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2190475
I am under the impression that the question today is the historicity of the question. There are many technological and societal changes since the Chazon Ish.
You could also be saddened by yourself insinuating that those who used electricity in the 50s were using Reform-like justifications.May 15, 2023 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #2190505RedlegParticipant
Neville, I am not paskening. It is beyond question that most of the reponsa concerning electricity ere based on incomplete or misunderstood information. Apparently, this includes you. You state that the powerplant workers are doing melacha. What melacha do you think that they are doing? I certainly agree that the use or operation of electrical appliances and devices is assur (with possible exceptions, such as a cho;eh sh’yesh bo sakana). Starting or shutting down generating units would certainly involve forbidden actions. such operations are normal during the week, but on Shabbos when the electrical demand is the lowest, operation is automatic. The operators melacha consists of sitting and watching a computer monitor. Generator load is controlled by each unit’s governor with no human intervention. The Jewish operators may be oiver uvdeh k’chol but they do not perform actions directly involved in producing the energy of controlling it. Of course, the Xtian and Muslim operators are not a concern. Please note that I have been building and operating power plants for 50 years and I have a pretty good idea how they work.May 15, 2023 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2190527
“You could also be saddened by yourself insinuating that those who used electricity in the 50s were using Reform-like justifications.”
That part was not about using municipal electricity in Israel; I would never say those people are conservative/reform. Ray’s comment was much further reaching than that if you read between the lines or are familiar with the standard Conservative/Reform rhetoric.
“There are many technological and societal changes since the Chazon Ish.”
This isn’t true at all (as it pertains to this issue). Israel is still rov Jewish, and would presumably still employ Jews at the power plants. Nobody is saying you “must” hold like the machmirim, but let’s not pretend there’s been a real change.
“Most Jews can’t not survive without electricity for 24 hours or longer nor afford private generators for Shabbos.”
Actually, most Jews are not currently hooked up to life support that rely on electricity for survival, but some are. Part of the question is whether that makes it mutar for everyone. If you mean “can’t survive” as in “omg I can’t even, like, oh my gosh, if I didn’t have power I would liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiterally die,” then yeah I’ve wasted my time responding to you. Affordability of generators is irrelevant. Maybe people “can’t afford” to take off shabbos/yom tov; that doesn’t mean it’s mutar to be mechallel shabbos.May 15, 2023 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2190564
Ther has been a major shift in the social fabric of the Jews who live in Israel.May 15, 2023 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2190569
You are correct. I misread. You are not allowing a middle ground on the issue. The beyond the pale kulos of electricity on Shabbos is that electricity can’t be prohibited because it’s not fire. That is far from what is being posted here. I don’t know why that bothers you so much.May 15, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2190575
@Neville Chaim Berlin Regarding the last paragraph of comment #2190527, please see the first two sentences of my first comment to this topic. Abba_S explained a decent answer. The only thing is that I don’t believe it is the true answer. I think the true answer is that אוי לרשע אוי לשכינו. The chilonim did so much protesting that now the chareidim picked up their bad ways.May 15, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2190574
@ray Kaufman/redleg How can you say that you “certainly agree that the use or operation of electrical appliances and devices is assur?” Didn’t you say that “it is beyond question that most of the responsa concerning electricity are based on incomplete or misunderstood information?”
The chareidim are noheg not to operate electricity on Shabbos. Whoever does is a poretz gender. But let’s not be brainwashed liars. It’s a safek derabanan.May 15, 2023 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #2190573pekakParticipant
Was the Chazon Ish the only posek in his time? I think not.May 15, 2023 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2190738
*gederMay 15, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2190744GadolhadorahParticipant
RayKaufman: If you are involved in the development of new generating stations in EY, than you probably know that an ehrliche yid named Idan Ofer (from OPC Energy and the Rotem plant) has purchased one of the fastest growing independent power companies in the Eastern U.S. (Competitive Power Ventures based in Silver Springs MD). Thus, we have yiddeshe electrons that are not “flowing” but remaining in their atoms while the yiddeshe energy flows all through the PJM interconnection from Baltimore to Lakewood up to the NYISO.May 16, 2023 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2190754
“Was the Chazon Ish the only posek in his time? I think not.”
When did I ever claim otherwise? I have no idea what even brought this comment on.
“You are not allowing a middle ground on the issue. The beyond the pale kulos of electricity on Shabbos is that electricity can’t be prohibited because it’s not fire.”
What are you talking about? This thread isn’t about whether or not electricity is melachah. This is about the fact that power plant workers do melachah in order to generate the power in Israel (full, unambiguous melachah like lighting actual fires). By the way, I’ve never had to ask because I don’t live in Israel, but for all I know I hold like the meikelim. I have no personal skin in this game.
“It is beyond question that most of the reponsa concerning electricity ere based on incomplete or misunderstood information.”
It is beyond question that the only type of person that would say this does not understand halacha and thinks he knows better than the poskim.
“Of course, the Xtian and Muslim operators are not a concern.”
Even this is not pashut. It’s melachah being done at the request of Jews, for the benefit of Jews, on Shabbos specifically. I’m sure there are ways to get around the amira l’akum issue, but it’s not “of course” not an issue.
“Please note that I have been building and operating power plants for 50 years and I have a pretty good idea how they work.”
I’ll take that into consideration if I have an engineering question, but if I have a halachah question, I think I’ll keep trusting those who are experts in that field.May 16, 2023 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2190757Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
In many states, you can buy electrons from a list of companies. Sounds like, people should buy ot Sun to Fri from that Yid, but shabbos from someone else.May 16, 2023 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2190783pekakParticipant
Your words on the issue (comment #2190287)
“It makes no sense to say it’s a chumrah. If it’s mutar, it’s due to pikuach nefesh (the hospitals need electricity), if it’s assur then it’s chillul Shabbos.”May 16, 2023 8:46 am at 8:46 am #2190840RR44Participant
Thanks for making my point
I was not discussing the HALCHIC issues – these are completely beyond my pay grade
I was discussing using something that is created through trampling on ShabbosMay 16, 2023 9:32 am at 9:32 am #2190856Yossel PupikParticipant
Ray Kaufman –
Other than nitpicking on electrons flowing or just energy, can you state a specific example that the poskim got facts wrong which would possibly change the psak.
Does the tech just stare at a screen all shabbos? Is he not switching power from different areas of the plant?May 16, 2023 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2190869
I still don’t get it. In the very comment you’re quoting I stated both opinions. If I thought the Chazon Ish was the “only posek” I would have just said it’s assur.
My point was, from my limited understanding, those who asser say it’s vadai assur, those who matir say it’s vadai mutar. I’m not familiar with an opinion that says “it’s a safek so we should go l’chumrah.” What would the safek be here, and who says like that?May 16, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2190998
Is Ray Kaufman an alternate username of yours, or do we have two forum members each with 50 years of experience building power plants?
“I am not paskening”
But you seem to be criticizing psakim.
“It is beyond question that most of the reponsa concerning electricity ere based on incomplete or misunderstood information.”
I’m guessing you might not like this answer, but what I heard a rav once say: the gedolim knew that electricity was assur for Shabbos, based on their expertise of Shabbos. So having a detailed knowledge of how exactly electricity works (or even which exact melacha it violates) is immaterial.
“The operators melacha consists of sitting and watching a computer monitor.”
Really? They never even press a key, or move the mouse, or anything? What an awesome job.
“Please note that I have been building and operating power plants for 50 years and I have a pretty good idea how they work. “
Appeal to authority fallacy. Ray Kaufman (if not you) also claims 50 years of experience building power plants, and he writes, “As a simple example, I have seen articles and Piskei Teshuva that refer to a “flow of electrons” This is not correct. Electrons don’t flow. The remain in their in their respective atoms.” This is simply not true. Electrons do have a net flow – that’s what an electrical current is. They just flow quite slowly, just over an inch a minute in typical house wiring. Given that the protons and neutrons of the copper wiring do not move, then yes, actually, the electrons do leave their respective atoms.May 16, 2023 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #2191003
“I was discussing using something that is created through trampling on Shabbos”
It’s still different. The issue with Angel Bakery was not chillul Shabbos due possibly more to ignorance and disbelief than malice, but rather the willful disrespect of a gadol borne from hatred of chareidim, Torah Judaism, and Hashem.May 17, 2023 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2191361
“The issue with Angel Bakery was not chillul Shabbos due possibly more to ignorance and disbelief than malice, but rather the willful disrespect of a gadol borne from hatred of chareidim, Torah Judaism, and Hashem.”
Chillul shabbos is still worse; it’s just that this might not actually be chillul shabbos. If it were vadai chillul shabbos then obviously it would be worse than eating Angels. I don’t see how the OP is comparing the two things at all though.
As a side question (interested if anyone knows), how do those going by the machmir opinion in Israel deal with electricity on other days? Why would you only need a generator on Shabbos proper? Wouldn’t it be possible that the electricity you’re using on Sunday was even generated on Shabbos?May 18, 2023 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2191502
“Chillul shabbos is still worse”
I wasn’t intending to rank the two issues – just to explain that the motives behind them were different, hence the different responses. But while on the subject, yes the chillul Shabbos is more of a halachic problem for us, but I’m not sure which would be “worse” in the eyes of Hashem. A person who realizes his sins can do teshuva, but chutzpa and gaiva place a block between people and Hashem.May 18, 2023 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #2191553
“I wasn’t intending to rank the two issues”
I think the OP was intending to.
“but I’m not sure which would be “worse” in the eyes of Hashem.”
I’m relatively confident that chillul Shabbos would be worse than something for which there is no real halachic problem. I’m not talking about the actual protesters, just people who purchase Angel’s products.May 18, 2023 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #2191564
“I’m relatively confident that chillul Shabbos would be worse than something for which there is no real halachic problem. I’m not talking about the actual protesters, just people who purchase Angel’s products.”
Ah, ok, I think we’re focusing on two completely different things. I agree that there’s no halachic problem with buying Angel’s breads (assuming one’s morah d’asra didn’t explicitly ban it for the kehilla), and I certainly wasn’t referring to the customers when talking about chutzpa and gaiva.
The OP juxtaposed the chareidi community’s response to two things: electricity generated on Shabbos in E”Y, which the Chazon Ish assered but many are lenient or don’t hold by it, and Angel’s bakery, which the tzibbur is boycotting en masse and loudly. My response is that with Angel’s, people are standing up for kavod of the Torah, the gadol whose house was picketed, and the chareidi community. In contrast, while causing chillul Shabbos which is a serious issue and needs to be addressed, the power companies are not doing it davka to spite Hashem and attack those who cling to His Torah.
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