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This one is kind of connected to my first kiruv question.
So lets say I am talking to a non frum girl and she brings up the topic of movies. I know that when talking to someone who is not frum one is not supposed to let them know if they do the same things if those ‘things’ are not within within Torah boundaries So I explain to the girl how Hollywood portrays things that the Torah is against… As I am telling this to her i am thinking how I just watched a movie the day before.
Or lets say with tznius, we learn together how a Bas yisroel is supposed to dress modestly and cover knees,elbows… and I wear skirts that don’t always cover my knees…
The list goes on and on but what I am trying to say is this:
Is it hypocritical for me to be doing this??? I just feel like who am I to be teaching this girl about Jewish things when I myself am doing things wrong. How can I tell her to believe in God when I myself have some questions?
(I just gave a few examples but really anything fits and not necessarily do these apply to me)
Has anyone ever felt this way before? Or am I just not supposed to be doing kiruv rechokim?
I am in no way an expert on Kiruv, but I find your premise very puzzling. You state “I know that when talking to someone who is not frum one is not supposed to let them know if the do the same things if those “things” are not within Torah boundaries.” Why on earth not? Did you hear this from someone with experience in Kiruv? Unless you are dealing with a young child who may be confused by “mixed messages”, I would think that one of the greatest Kiruv techniques is to share your own struggles. You can teach by your example that we are all trying to grow and improve and get closer to the ideal at all times. For example, if you learn Hilchos Tznius, I don’t see what is wrong in saying “This is what Hashem wants, and honestly it is something I am working hard at but struggling with. I know it is the right thing to do, and I hope that soon I will be living up to what I know I need to do.” This can apply to anything you are doing “wrong”.
The only point I feel is different is your last one, where you say you have some questions about believing in G-d. Being that this is not simply a matter of having trouble acting appropriately, but rather the key underlying premise of everything, I would strongly encourage you to do whatever you need to the find the answers to your questions — not simply because you don’t want to be “hypocritical” when doing kiruv, but for your own self!! There are many books and resources out there, and I don’t know specifically what your questions are, but R’ Waldman’s book “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt”, and R’ Kellerman’s “Permission to Believe” and “Permission to Receive” are great places to start for general questions with regard to belief in Hashem and the Torah. I think you should probably try to address your questions before continuing with your kiruv work.
Good Luck!
no one is perfect. if only perfect people did kiruv we wouldnt get very far. sometimes it takes someone who is making a similar journey to make a potential baal teshuva feel comfortable and inspired. also the more you learn about something, and the more you talk about something the more likely it is that you will adhere to it yourself. the very fact that you posted this question shows that youre taking what you’ve been saying to heart for yourself. i wouldnt call that hypocritical.
I do not think you are being hypocritical at all. Have any of us learned something in the mishna berura or some sort of halacha where the next day we did not adhere by it? Everyone is on their own level and it takes a lot of siyata dishmaya to say the right things in kiruv and make it have an impact on the person.
Secondly, Dovid Hamelech says “heemanti ki adaber” meaning I believe because I speak. By you talking about it more and more makes you into a firmer believer. When you are saying these things to the one you are trying to be mekarev, you are talking to yourself as well and and it could potentially have a greater impact on you than the other person.
i missed the part where you yourself have questions. the reason thats dangerous is because your ward can end up turning you and thats not ideal in the kiruv business. brush up on your hashkafa and emuna…for your sake as well as your ward.
cinderella- Are you having casual conversations with this person, or is this a concentrated effort to be mekarev her? Is she aware of your agenda? Are you doing this on your own or with the assistance of a kiruv organization? In another post someone mentioned Partners In Torah. Give them a call.
It is good that you are genuine and sincere and questioning what you are doing. The world needs more people like that. You are in the position you are in for a reason, and will probably learn from each thing you teach someone.
If you are not comfortable with certain “recommendations”, then pass on those. In the areas you are stronger, you are obliged to pass on what you know, as long as you feel sure of what you are saying.
I will tell you what works for me in my efforts. The most religious people I know have had the most influence on me because they happen to not make me feel bad at all.
With a smile on their faces, they tell me, not from their own words, but they share, B’H, the source of the information they wish to teach me, and then let it sit with me.
They may say, “So and so says……..”, or “When we make a bracha………etc…the reason we do it that way is…….” etc..etc.
Have I absorbed and put to practice everything? No. Have a put more to practice this year than last year? Yes, B’H.
I would say if you have an opportunity to share a halacha with some hashkofa that you feel good about sharing, please do so.
In conclusion, I will tell you what the first Rebbe I learned with told me (He was the one who got me to see what Judaism is really all about). He said, “When a Jewish neshama hears the truth; the real story, whether it sits well with them or not, they will, to some degree, bond with it and think about it, and eventually grow in time.”
cinderella –
You are presenting two points here: 1) How can you tell her that certain things aren’t proper to do when you yourself do them? and 2) How can you tell her to believe certain things which you yourself have questions about?
For the first thing, you are not a hypocrite. Make it clear to her that no one is perfect, and we are only expected to do our best, and you struggle too. The point of telling her the mitzvos and the ideas behind them is not simply to get her to do them. Because let’s face it, practically speaking, you aren’t getting her to start keeping everything overnight. But there are attitudes and ideas that you want to attune her mind too, and you want to give her a taste of what Yiddishkeit is about. So you tell her these are the mitzvos, we all struggle with them, but we all can learn from them, and we all can use them as a general framework for growth.
For the second thing, the question is how strong your own convictions are. If you have real questions, then you should ask them yourself. Not to her of course, but go find a rabbi and give him a run for his money. And if he can’t answer then go badger someone else. And if that doesn’t work then ask us here in the CR 🙂 Don’t ignore things that bother you inside. But the main thing here is that you should not try to convince someone to believe in something you don’t. That is dangerous and can be perceived as hypocritical. So if you have real questions, I suggest you ask them yourself first, before trying to convince her of the “answers.” However, if the things you are convincing her of don’t really relate to your own questions, and you do believe fully in what you are specifically telling her, then I wouldn’t worry about the fact that you have questions in other areas. That in no way makes you a hypocrite. But you should still seek answers to all your questions. And I hope you find them!
It’s very nice to Mekarev s/o, but there is no Chiyuv. I heard this from Rabbi Tatz (on the radio from a taped Shiur). This is obvious from the Torah but I feel it needs repeating because some posters have misconceptions about this.
Health, according to others, if you think it is going to work, you must. According to Rabbi Tatz, is ther still a mitsva? Why were n’viei Yisroel rebuking the avodah zorah serving Jews, during the first Beis Hamikdash?
For you Health, I have a story.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller said on a tape that there exists a problem nowdays. A Yid becomes a Ba’al Teshuva, his heart burns to serve HaShem. Then, he enters a frum community and the FFBs who are not medakdek be’mitsvos cool him off. Ad kan divrei HaRav Miller ztz”l.
A disclaimer: by no means do I mean to say that all FFBs do not medakdek be’mitsvos, chas ve’sholom.
Hi Health. I am not sure what to say. Rabbi Tatz is a brilliant, brilliant person. So is Rabbi Kamenetzky who was taped saying every single Jew is responsible to make an effort to be mekarev someone. I have also heard shiurim saying that every frum Jew is accountable for this, but will not be judged on this since we are not sure exactly how to go about doing it. Maybe someone can clarify on your and my points.
to the op- your on a slipery slope.
a. to all those that said its good for the listener to hear what the op feels- thats entirely wrong from a kiruv perspevcive. most people who are thinking of following more or on the road already need two things- a loving caring respecting mekarev who wont judge them and appreiates all theyve done and 2. a role model. someone who they look at and think “ya, i wanna be like that”. if you tell him/her about yiddishkeit but then say “but im not sure if that something i like” or “i sometimes dont keep that one” then your destroying yourself as a role model. bear in mind that bts arent yet aquainted with the things that everyone is makpid on or not. for all they know, when you tell them its too hard for you to wash neigel vasser next to your bed its as chomur as saying that bishul is something you havent taken on on shabbos. i caution you strongly to never share these things with someone. it can have disasterous effects.
To the OP, it is not good, very not good for her to hear you preach one way and act a different way.
Yitay, you are wrong. We are expected to keep all Mitsvos according to Halocha. Not just try our best.
Yitay, you are wrong. We are expected to keep all Mitsvos according to Halocha. Not just try our best.
That is not even almost correct. Mdd: just where did you pick up that fine nugget of avoda zara?
Popa-bar-Abba, what do you mean?
He’s wrong about us being expected to keep all mitzvos according to halacha??
Ok. Sorry for biting your head off.
Our hashkafa is that all we are expected of is to do our best. Chazal is full of this idea; ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????, ?? ?? ?
.??????? ?? ??????
It also just makes sense. And I don’t see how you think that is letting people “off easy.” Doing your best is hard.
Toi — What better role model can there be for a potential BT then someone who is also growing in their avodas Hashem? Obviously we are not talking about saying “I don’t like that one”! But what kidn of “disastrous effects” will come if, to use the example of the OP, you are learning Hilchos Tznius and share some of your own personal struggles, in line with “this is the Halacha, and it is what Hashem requires of us. Unfortunately I have a big taava with regard to wearing skirts that are “borderline” Halachically. I know it’s wrong, but I find it hard and I’m working on it.” You are showing this potential BT that even FFB’s have their nisyanos that they struggle with. Why does this “destroy” yourself as a role model.
I am not a BT, but the people who have been the biggest role models in my life were people who I had a close enough relationship with to sometimes see their flaws and how they were trying to deal with them. No one is perfect, and pretending to be so will not bring people closer to Avodas Hashem.
I think that you should start off by working on your self, once you feel that you are ready, and you practice what you believe, should you start teaching others what to do.
PBA, you are so wrong. If it says that you are not allowed to eat treif, it means you must never eat treif. if you do , you are judged for it. If you did it knowingly ,you are considered a rasha until you do teshuva. The same applies to all other issurim!
M in Israel, why is it Chilul HaShem for a Rabbi to be caught doing something wrong? He just has his struggles. So, sometimes he steales or engages in immorality. What’s the ta’ana?
mdd– Obviously one is never exempt from keeping any mitzvos — that is not my point. No one is perfect, and of course there is a din v’cheshbon for everything someone does. Only Hashem knows what you could have/ should have done, and what any individual’s reward/ punishment should be. My point is that Kiruv does not require hiding the fact that you make mistakes. I am not condoning those mistakes — I am saying that there is no need to pretend to be perfect if you are not.
Just to be clear, back to my example. It is 100% assur to dress in a way that is not in accordance with Halacha. Someone who dresses this way will be judged by Hashem, Who knows all the factors, motivations, circumstances, etc. and will reward/ punish accordingly. Someone who is not keeping this Halacha is WRONG. HOWEVER, if you are in this situation, and you are involved in Kiruv, I believe (and my limited experience has shown) that pretending you are perfect is not a better kiruv technique then sharing your own struggles in avodas Hashem.
As far as your question with regard to Chillul Hashem I’m not sure how it connects. Any time a person does an aveira (stealing and immorality are both aveiros), he creates a Chillul Hashem. If this aveira is done intentionally and in public (or it becomes known publicly), particularly if it is in front of a minyan of Jews, it becomes a Chillul Hashem B’farhesiya — a public Chillul Hashem, which is an additional aveira besides the original aveira that he committed. Whether there are mitigating factors, taavos, etc. that affect this individual’s “nekudas habichirah” is Hashem’s cheshbon. The actions however, are still wrong. This Chillul Hashem exists whether the person committing the aveira is a Rabbi or an apikorus — the public, intentional performance of an aveira by a Jew is a Chillul Hashem.
Similarly a person without a knowledge of Halacha who does an aveira is still doing the wrong thing. Whether or not he is completely accountable for that action is a separate issue; we are not the ones keeping the accounts, and Hashem will determine for each person what the ta’anas against him are.
mdd: I’m not really sure what we are arguing about.
Presumably, I agree that one is required to fulfill all chiyuvim in the torah, and that there is never a situation (except for those mentioned in halacha) when one is pattur from fulfilling a chiyuv.
But, I would have expected you to also agree, that from Hashem’s point of view, there are many times when one appears to be breaking the torah, yet Hashem knows it was too hard for this person, and judges them accordingly.
That is why we have such ideas as the navi saying that in the time of mashiach ??????????? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????????, ????? ????? ???????? ???????? ??? ??????? (malachi 3:18), because now, we cannot tell.
Why don’t you give me an example of a case where we would be arguing?
It’s a Machlokes in the Rishonim and a dispute between the Machshava Acharonim whether a case can exist where HKBH puts you in a situation where your Nisayon it to commit an Aveirah in the minimal way rather than a worse one. I believe I have a proof from the Halachic Seforim that we Pasken that it can exist, though I highly doubt such a case would be considered appropriate by the mods for me to write.
For kids at risk it is good to share your struggles. This way they won’t look at themselves as outsiders. Many times they feel that everyone else keeps everything and walks around with Shivisi-Hashem-Lenegdi-Tamid on their mind, just as their Rebbe led them to believe, while they themselves actually have their own desires. This makes them feel like they can never participate. When you share your realistic ups and downs, it can bring them closer by showing that there is room for them and their struggles, too.
In the case of Kiruv Rechokim, I don’t see how this will be a benefit. Sure it is good to understand that we all have struggles and week moments. If they know that it is something that you are working on changing is fine, or even great. On the other hand, to see Halacha being defied is counter-productive.
However, in the case of the OP, when you go to the next Kiruv event, why don’t you try sitting down on the other side of the table?
This is what I learned. If you know Aleph and the other person knows nothing then it’s your obligation to teach them Aleph. I have had very knowledgable people try to teach me and they basically screamed at me because they were not taught the right way or maybe they needed to learn some more before they could teach. If you’re not a screamer and you’re praying to Hashem to let you teach the right way then you will. And remember that you are a stepping stone in this person’s life. Hashem will provide the people necessary to make up for your shortcomings and to get this person onto the next stop.
cinderella, I think it is wonderful that you are able to recognize things about yourself that you can improve in. That is a very valuable trait. And I think many of the posters here are correct in saying that because of these struggles that you have, it can benefit the person you are working with by showing her that everyone can constantly grow and find areas they can work on, and one is never done improving. that way, she may have an easier time developing a connection because she can feel that she is growing “with you” and not that she has to reach some sort of perfect level that you are on in order to be considered one of us. So it is not hypocritical at all. On the contrary, it shows that you are a real, genuine person, and makes you deserving of even more respect. Keep it up.
m in I- i understand, logically, the point you are making. from a frum standpoint you feel this way. i have worked extensively with off the d kids and budding bts. they do not need and should not hear about your struggles. it does not give off the “we’re in this together vibe.” what it tells them is A. i can try really hard and maybe never get there so the heck with it and B. destroys your credibility. im not saying you need to have all the answers- you can always say “lets find a book on that” or ” i know a really big rabbi who im sure can help us”, but to acknowledge that you find certain basic things tough is akin to informing them that you cant deal and dont value your yiddishkeit enough. im not saying that what you mean, so dont jump down my throat, but thats what they hear. DO NOT share these things. they also wont be impressed or like you more.
Popa – My thoughts exactly. I can’t be here often because the new zman has begun, but thanks for backing me up there.
yitayningwut–much hatzlacha this zman.
Chacham – thanks, you too!
“Health, according to others, if you think it is going to work, you must.”
If the “others” are Rabbonim – Name them!
You kept asking me to name a Rav and I did. I said already it’s a Mitzvah, but you keep saying you have to. You won’t admit that you don’t have a leg to stand on.
BTGuy -“So is Rabbi Kamenetzky who was taped saying every single Jew is responsible to make an effort to be mekarev someone.”
When s/o is giving a Shmuz or Mussar when they say something like responsible -they mean a big Inyan or Mitzvah, they don’t mean to Pasken acc. to Halacha!
The Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh writes on the Pasuk of Im Ra’isa Shor Re’echa, that if you see a Yid straying you should bring him back to his owner.
To tell you the truth, I don’t get where you are coming from. Every Yid is Mechuyav in all the Mitzvos and Kol Yisroel Areivim, so it follows that you should do what you can to bring them back to the fold. What can be a bigger Mezake Es Harabim?
Health, Rav Kamenetzky mentioned our being judged for not doing kiruv. He is a responsible Rosh Yeshiva, and you do not say such things unless there is a chiyuv. It is such a big thing that Eliyahu Ha’Navi brought a korban ba’chutz at the time of issur bamos to bring back wayward Jews. I am not going to respond anymore to your lack of Ahavas Yisroel-driven opinion.
M in Israel, you missed a major part in definition of Chilul HaShem. If a choshuve person does something which even appears to be wrong, and it becomes known, and people look down on it, it is a Chilul HaShem. The same applies to a frum Yid in front of Goyim or frei Yidden. It causes a lessening of Kovod Shamayim because people expect a level of perfection from a choshuve person/frume Yid.
PBA, it is obvious, and I also heard so from my Rosh Yeshiva that if the Torah says that a certain thing is a mitsva, it is within reach of every Jew to do it.
Cinderella, you do not need to tell her you are not perfect!
I agree 100% with what you said Toi.
mdd -“Health, Rav Kamenetzky mentioned our being judged for not doing kiruv. He is a responsible Rosh Yeshiva, and you do not say such things unless there is a chiyuv.”
Read my post to BT guy. You can’t bring a Rayah from a Musser Shmuz. It’s a Mitzvah and e/o will be judged on why we didn’t do every Mitzvah possible, but it doesn’t make it into a Chiyuv. Stop reading into his words, just because you want to be RIGHT!
“I am not going to respond anymore to your lack of Ahavas Yisroel-driven opinion.”
I really hope you don’t because you keep repeating the same thing over & over again. And it’s not me who is lacking in Bein Odom L’chaveiro – you are a classic example of “Kol Hapoisel B’mumo Poisel”!
HaLeiVi -“The Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh writes on the Pasuk of Im Ra’isa Shor Re’echa, that if you see a Yid straying you should bring him back to his owner.”
It’s a Mitzvah, not a Chiyuv!
“Kol Yisroel Areivim, so it follows that you should do what you can to bring them back to the fold.”
You must not have read my posts on the closed thread. I wrote there that you Do Not say “Kol Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lohzeh” by people who aren’t Frum!
mdd:
Well stated on all points made on this thread. Yasher Koach.
Health: Bring a source please that Kol Yisrael Areivim does not apply to someone who isn’t frum. And even then please bring a source that it wouldn’t apply to a Tinok Shenishba as opposed to someone who left on his own.
moving on.
in order to truly convince someone of something you need to believe it yourself. otherwise the person youre trying to convince could see right through you if they have half a brain. honesty works too. most people don;t expect it…so its a very effective tool in persuasion.
THEREFORE if you want to be mekarev people…which is essentially convincing and persuading them that what you believe is right and what they currently believe is wrong…you need to be absolutely certain of what youre saying. you need to believe it without any scintilla of doubt. soliek if you have emuna issues then get those sorted before you start telling people to believe what you do. if you dont know what you believe…how should they.
as far as averos go…in my opinion the ikkar is emuna and hashkafah. LET ME EXPLAIN BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT. most people who sin so it l’teavon. they like watching movies…they cant be bothered to go to shul…they enjoy lashon hara…etc. its not because of any lack of emuna, proper hashkafa or rebellion. its simply l’teavon. therefore if a person has a very strong hashkafah and very strong foundations in emuna then even though they may be doing certain averos…they know that what tehy are doing is wrong and exactly why its wrong and therefore they WILL change because they have the capacity to. people can only live with cognitive dissonance for so long.
so why do people sin? because no one is perfect and the yetzer hara tells us to give in to teh guf…and we do…but just because someone does certain averos does not meaen that they are not qualified for kiruv.
Sam2 -“Health: Bring a source please that Kol Yisrael Areivim does not apply to someone who isn’t frum.”
Before I answer, I’d like to ask you this, because you’re a smart Bocher, why should it apply? Did you ever look up the Dinim?
“And even then please bring a source that it wouldn’t apply to a Tinok Shenishba as opposed to someone who left on his own.”
Please don’t misunderstand me. I didn’t mean to say that it applies to anyone who becomes OTD, but that in most cases people who go OTD are because they were pushed off. In these cases, there is a bigger Inyan to Mekarev these people than others because of the wrong committed by another supposedly Frum person.
We are responsible for this wrong because if the guy who did this is a Rasha -then we should have taken action against him because of Veartah Haroh Mekirbecha. And if the guy was B’shogeg, we are still responsible because an Aveira B’shogeg is still an Aveira and Kol Yisroel Areivim etc.
mdd — yes, I was aware of that aspect of Chillul Hashem, but I’m not sure how it connects to this discussion. You did not discuss things that only “appeared” wrong. You spoke about stealing and immorality — both of which are completely assur and would consitute a Chillul Hashem no matter who did them!! I thought that your point was that if this chashuv person sinned because “he has his struggles” then it should not be considered a ta’ana on him, and not a Chillul Hashem. My response was that of course it’s a Chillul Hashem and an aveira — but how much of a “ta’anah” it is on him only Hashem knows, as only Hashem knows how great the nisayon was. It is still just as wrong and just as much a Chillul Hashem.
Health. I cant mention the website, but I am quoting from it:
“Each individual has a Chiyuv to be Mekarev people” ~ Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky, SHLITA
So such a statement does not have to be supported in halacha? I am truly seeking
clarification.
Thank you…
cinderella (and toi)– Perhaps you should discuss your question with the person who gave the seminar. It may be that they meant you should not “bond” with the person you are doing Kiruv with over things that are assur, or attempt to ingratiate yourself with them by showing that you are also “with it.” In your example, where the girl asks point blank “did you see that movie?”, were they recommending you lie and say “no, frum Jews don’t watch movies” even if you did? That sounds strange to me. I agree you shouldn’t respond “wow, it was great, I thought it was hysterical when . . . .”. Sometimes you can explain why we don’t do certain things without getting personal, and avoid the issue, but if her response is “you mean you never watch movies?”, I still think a response like “I try very hard not to, although this is an area that I am still working on” is better in the long run then a lie, which if eventually discovered will certainly lead her to view you as hypocritical.
Toi — My experience in Kiruv has generally involved adults, not kids at risk, so perhaps for kids it is different. I have never come across someone who got the message that I “can’t deal” with Halacha or it is “not worth it” when they found out for example that I find myself occasionally doing serious aveirahs such as speaking Loshon Harah. The usual reaction was the opposite — that even though I am FFB, I don’t just go on auto pilot and assume I’m good enough, but I am working on myself in the areas that are difficult because I truly believe in this and value it.
Additionally they get the message that we really believe what we preach. I know of someone who started becoming interested in Yiddishkeit after coming across a copy of the Chofetz Chaim’s sefer Ahavas Chessed, which is a Halacha sefer. The person found the book inspiring because he said “Everyone talks about being nice — but you guys actually have tons of technical rules about it. Not just ‘give charity’, but how much, who comes first, when not to give, etc. This shows your really MEAN it! It’s not just a nice philosophy!” Sharing your struggles can show this is a real way of life.
Again, I am not saying to make this person your personal confessor! But if I topic comes up, I don’t believe that telling lies in the long run will serve your best interests, and I don’t believe that is necessary to avoid learning any topic or Halacha that you have trouble with. I can even see a positive result if when learning a sefer on Tznius you explain in the beginning that tznius is required by Halacha and something you also struggle with, and you hope by learning together you can both become better in your avodas Hashem.
I’m not sure where your comments on them liking you more come in. I have never experienced anyone liking me more or less as a result of my struggles in avodas Hashem. How much others like you is usually a result of your middos and interpersonal skills, not whether you keep all of Halacha perfectly or have some areas where you struggle.
BTGuy -Like I said before -you can’t bring a Raya from a Musser Shmuz. I’m sure R’ Shmuel was saying it during a Shmuz. If you told me you called him personally and he told you there is such a Chiyuv -then I would call him up and discuss the Halacha with him.
When s/o gives a Shmuz they aren’t Paskening L’halacha -they are saying things to emphasize the importance of the subject, like in this case regarding Kiruv!
Health, you are making an assumption about it being a schmuz. Nothing wrong with that, but is there a possiblity that Rabbi Kamenetzky’s statement may mean there is a halachic support for it? Is is possible? Or there are such things as a chiyuv not rooted in halacha? I am not saying you are wrong. I am just looking for a precise understanding and the correct answer.
The quote speaks for itself, and if I could post the kiruv site, I would, but we cant do that here.
“Each individual has a Chiyuv to be Mekarev people” ~ Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky, SHLITA
As the quote stands, is there any possibility there may be a halachic support. Also, I am interested in knowing what you base your view on. How do you know to say there is no halachic support for there to be a chiyuv to be mekarev someone?
I am not trying to back you into a corner. I apologize if that is how it seems. But I respect your knowledge and see some ambiguity in what we are talking about.
Please, no “possible” scenarios to fit the bill. If someone can explain definitively, that would be great and greatly appreciated.
BTguy – I understand where you are coming from. But the way I understand the Halacha there is no way he can mean it as a P’sak Din. That’s why I wrote – “If you told me you called him personally and he told you there is such a Chiyuv -then I would call him up and discuss the Halacha with him.”
BTGuy, if a frei Yid is a Tinok sne’nishba(which depends on the case), he is totaly like any frum person for all Halochos. To lose one’s status, one has to knowingly transgress some big issurim.
Thank you for responding again. I see your take on the matter, and you may be right, but I was looking for an objective response regarding my oft repeated question about Rabbi Kamenetzky’s statement about everyone has a chiyuv (obligation) to be mekarev someone, and if it can be based on halacha, or, why you believe it is not based on halacha.
Perhaps someone else can directly answer the question.
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