November 1, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #823384
i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha. we see countless times how the neshama is more important than the guf in this regard. the most prominent example would me dying al kiddush hashem. depending on the circumstance on may even be obligated to die for something that isnt yeharag v’al ya’avor. we take this stuff seriously because the neshama is of paramount importance.
therefore…it follows…that if you would not stand idly by and watch someone get run over by a car if you could have done something…then surely you should be mekarev a yid who is slipping or has slipped or has never known better or whatever the situation is.
that being said one is under no obligation to kill themselves or risk their life to save another. so if one feels that one isnt up to kiruv becuase it may damage their neshama in some way then by all means dont. but if you dont because you cant be bothered…then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.November 1, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #823385
You made some excellent points also. Thank you.November 1, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #823386
soliek -“i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha.”
I’ll repeat it again – There is No Chiyuv to Mekarev anyone. The Posuk you just quoted says “Reyecha” – A Frei person isn’t in this category. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t, just that you aren’t Mechuyav to. Unless they are doing the Aveiros L’hachas, which in this case you have to let them rot, but this is very rare nowadays.
“then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.”
True, if you see a Frum person starting to go OTD -you can’t stand idly by – because of Lo Saamod!
To BTguy also -If you look in the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam -you’ll see why I’m saying all that I did.
Kol Tuv.November 2, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #823387
If a frei Yid is a tinok she’nishba, he is an “Achicha” and a “Reyecha”. If he is a mumar, then he is not. And I certainly did learn the sugya.November 2, 2011 4:33 am at 4:33 am #823388
mdd – I could agree with your statement, if you come up with another reason why there is no Chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden.
I don’t have another reason why there is no Chiyuv, just that they aren’t Amecha/Achecha. If you tell me another reason, why there is no Chiyuv, I could accept your statement.November 2, 2011 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #823390
Health: Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah. You cannot come with a conclusion in mind and re-work sources to fit that conclusion. You have to have proofs that there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev. When your proof is discarded then you are wrong if you cannot find another proof. You cannot just assume that you are right and that there must be another proof out there somewhere. I’m sorry that you experience with Ba’alei Teshuvah has not worked out well for you (honestly, mine hasn’t either; it takes a huge emotional toll to actually be Mekarev someone) but that doesn’t mean that you can therefore make a Halachic statement with no support.November 2, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #823391
Sam2, that was what I was feeling and you said it well. I am not saying Health is wrong. I just thought the argument to get to the conclusion was somehow loosely wired. I am still curious for a definitive answer in this case on if chiyuv means an obligation, and where that obligation is rooted, or if chiyuv is being used to say one strongly likes the idea and is supportive of it.November 2, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #823392
old man: you don’t know me. you don’t know why i do what i do and you dont know why i feel what i feel. dont even bother pretending. to me the issue is not an exercise in lamdus…i actually care and i was making a point.November 2, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #823394
Cinderella, I would like to say that from personal experience, what has worked have been people who clicked with me personally, who just gave me the information straight, without judging me or checking on how much I was absorbing. Also, they modeled the behavior and attitudes they wanted me to have. They may or may not have been aware of how much any of them influenced me. I will tell you that while every Rabbi I had the privilege of learning from taught me and modeled many things for me, not everything sunk in, but many things did, and I am eternally grateful.
To me, it is like a giant jigsaw puzzle, and you have a chance to give someone pieces to that puzzle. I would say just say to be extra careful not to expect rapid change or even change you are aware of, and to give over the information as it is, and be friendly, welcoming, and there for them, even if they seem difficult. Let them be them, but give them the proper Jewish perspective on any and all topics without making them feel what they are doing now is wrong. They want to please and do the right thing.
Its almost like putting a variety of foods on the table and they will pick and take what they want. It is a lot of work to do that, but you are aiding in building a neshama. And, yes, there will be backsliding and times they seem to be going backwards.
Also, dont get overwhelmed. There is too much for you to teach. A great man who I learned with (he was over 90 years old) saw I was getting overwhelmed since learning one thing led to another and on and on, and it was difficult for me to apply things even though I bought into them in concept/hashkafah.
To help me with that he said to me the following: “You are walking down a road and you come across the biggest treasure chest you have ever seen. It is loaded with diamonds, gold, rubies, emeralds… That is what Judaims is. And it is all for you. And while you cannot take all the contents with you, you should know it is always there for you to go to and take something with you, as much as you like, and as often as you like.” That is the metaphor he gave me about coming close to Torah Judaism. And I still consider myself growing; sometimes faster than at other times.
In short, as long as you are a vehicle for teaching over the information, no matter who the person is, know something will stick, and it is in your merit.
HatzlachaNovember 2, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #823395
Sam2 -“Health: Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah. You cannot come with a conclusion in mind and re-work sources to fit that conclusion.”
Actually I’m quite shocked at your post. As a Bocher I wouldn’t expect such Chutzpah from you, like I get from some other posters!
“You have to have proofs that there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev. You cannot just assume that you are right and that there must be another proof out there somewhere.”
I’ve posted these proofs above. It’s says clearly -Mefurishe Diyuk that you don’t have a Chiyuv to Mekarev anyone. I’m sorry that you’re too lazy to look it up!
The only thing I possibly conceded to was that I learned P’shat- the reason there is no Chiyuv was because they aren’t Bechlal Arvous, but if you give me another reason why there is no Chiyuv, I’ll accept this statement of -that they are Bechlal Arvous!November 2, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #823396
Health: A mefurash Diyuk from what? Rabbi Tatz? Rabbi Tatz is amazing but is far from a Halachic source. You have brought no proofs here. I just read through every post of yours on this thread. Your one proof, that Arvus doesn’t apply to someone who’s not Frum (which you didn’t bring a proof for either, by the way) has already been disproven when regarding someone who grew up not frum. And I apologize if I offended you. I don’t think I’m being Chutzpa’dik in pointing out that, in this thread at least, you appear to be superimposing your own expectations of what Halacha should be over the actual Halacha. Doing so is a serious problem in Yiddishkeit at the moment (on both ends of the “political” spectrum) and should never be done.November 2, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #823397
Sam2 – Wow -you didn’t learn from my post and you continue with your Chutzpa! Who brought you up like this -your parents or YU where you learned?
I posted this above -“To BTguy also -If you look in the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam -you’ll see why I’m saying all that I did.”
It’s the Rambam, but after your posts -I’m definitely Not telling you where!November 2, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #823398yitayningwutParticipant
STOP. Cool it.November 2, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #823399cinderellaParticipant
Seriously people? Being nice to others IS a chiyuv. And why do certain people feel the need to make their point with immature, catty insults. Grow up. Someone disagreeing with you is not the end of the world.
Oh and BTguy, thx you really gave me alot to think about.November 2, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #823400
I just would like to remind the olam here why Health is so adamant that is only(sic!) a Mitsva (in his opinion) to mekarev frei Yidden and not a Chiyuv. It is because he thinks that much less Kiruv should be done. Those few that are being brought closer should undergo special screening. Afterwards, they are going to be told who be allowed(sic!) to be frum and who should stay frei!!!! Just how preposterous, outrageous, anti-Torah his suggestion is!!November 2, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #823401
Health: What right do you have to insult my parents? I don’t think defending the chain of Halacha and our Mesorah counts as being Chutzpa’dik or brought up incorrectly. And I have never claimed here to have learned in YU. But it’s nice of you to slander an institution as teaching their Bochurim improper middos just because you want to.November 2, 2011 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #823402
health: you do realize that by not sharing your sources you reveal one of two things. wither that you have no source in which case sam is right…and stop being a pain about it…or that your torah is for your own personal aggrandizement and in no way lshem shamayim.
either way youre wrong so please…just move on.November 3, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #823403
mdd -“I just would like to remind the olam here why Health is so adamant that is only(sic!) a Mitsva (in his opinion) to mekarev frei Yidden and not a Chiyuv.”
I’m adamant because that’s what the Rambam says!
“It is because he thinks that much less Kiruv should be done. Those few that are being brought closer should undergo special screening. Afterwards, they are going to be told who be allowed(sic!) to be frum and who should stay frei!!!!”
Your hateful posts towards me just proves my point! Too bad such a system wasn’t in place by you and I wouldn’t have to respond to all your nasty comments!November 3, 2011 1:07 am at 1:07 am #823404
Sam2 -“What right do you have to insult my parents? I don’t think defending the chain of Halacha and our Mesorah counts as being Chutzpa’dik or brought up incorrectly. And I have never claimed here to have learned in YU. But it’s nice of you to slander an institution as teaching their Bochurim improper middos just because you want to.”
I thought you learnt in YU, but s/o is responsible for not bringing you up properly, either your Yeshiva where you Did learn or your parents!
I will remind you of what you posted that reeks from Chutzpa, in case you think -“I didn’t write anything improper”!
1. “Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah.”
2. “you appear to be superimposing your own expectations of what Halacha should be over the actual Halacha. Doing so is a serious problem in Yiddishkeit at the moment (on both ends of the “political” spectrum) and should never be done.”November 3, 2011 1:08 am at 1:08 am #823405
Health: Chas Veshalom! How dare you say such a thing? How would you like it if all of the Avonos of those who weren’t allowed to be chozer Bitshuvah were held on your head in such a system? We should thank HKBH every single say that there are so many Ba’alei Teshuvah nowadays after what the trends had been like for the previous 200 years.November 3, 2011 1:22 am at 1:22 am #823406
soliek -“health: you do realize that by not sharing your sources you reveal one of two things. wither that you have no source in which case sam is right…”
First of all, your spelling is so poor that I have a hard time deciphering it.
Secondly, I actually did share – I said I heard it from a Shiur and I also said it is a Rambam. I was going to tell where this Rambam is, but not one person asked like a Mentch!
Why don’t you ask mdd where it is? Because he posted – “And I certainly did learn the sugya”!November 3, 2011 1:41 am at 1:41 am #823407
Sam2 -“How dare you say such a thing?”
And how dare the few posters including yourself degrade me like you did?
Stop with the Frum Dramatics!
I never said that no one should have made any BT’s, but just that making anyone or anything Frum is why we have the situation the way we do nowadays. There are those whom have Mental problems and there are those who spew Hatred at FFB’s; who needs these types to have become Frum? At least when they were Frei -they had the excuse of Tinok Shenishba!November 3, 2011 1:51 am at 1:51 am #823408
health…you are being a baby. dismiss my point all you like based on incorrect spelling, but regardless, it still stands. if you learn lshem shamayim and the reason you are arguing with sam is lhagdil torah ulhaadira then post your source. if you have no source then please be quiet. either way your current behaviour just makes you seem like a petulant soreloser whether or not you actually are.
if you are right, i am sure sam will concede. if you are wrong then i hope you will. regardless, this straw man argument based on a source you may or may not have is an exercise in futility. if you have a source, produce it. unless being petulant is your favourite pastime in which case…i truly pity you. you gain nothing by carrying on as you currently are.November 3, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #823409
Once again, who are you to judge what another frum Jew does? If there are some people who now keep 612 Mitzvos but can’t be Mikayim Veohavta Leraiacha Kamocha isn’t that better than when they kept nothing? It’s not your judgment call to make if it was worth it for a Jew to be Chozer Bitshuvah. Judaism has far more problems than Ba’alei Teshuvah who for whatever reason you think hate FFBs. It’s not for you to decide who should follow what Halachos. Once again, would you be willing to take the burden of thousands of people’s Aveiros (Beshogeg, granted) for their entire lives on your shoulders? Are you honestly willing to say that the world is better off with that many fewer Mitzvos being done because (in your mind) it will help “frum” society somehow?November 3, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #823410
Health, I do not , chas ve’sholom, hate the FFBs. I do ,however, have ta’anos on those FFBs, who for no valid reason dislike or do not treat the BTs well. That’s what the consequences of an aviera are, in addition to the aviera itself — they have people upset at them.November 3, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #823411
Sam2 -“If there are some people who now keep 612 Mitzvos but can’t be Mikayim Veohavta Leraiacha Kamocha”
Sorry, you are seriously understating it. A person who has no idea what Bein Odom L’chaveiro is should not have become Frum. The abuse that I have been enduring here is more like Malbim Pnei Chaveiro etc. You might not know who I am, but there are probably readers who do know who I am. I’m not secretive about my posting here. I think you should reevaluate your priorities in life!November 3, 2011 2:53 am at 2:53 am #823412
soliek -“health…you are being a baby. …unless being petulant is your favourite pastime in which case…i truly pity you. you gain nothing by carrying on as you currently are.”
You don’t seem to have read my post to you in its entirety.
I’m not acting immature -I’m standing on principle. Did you ever hear of Derech Eretz Kodma L’torah? I said I would gladly post where this Rambam is but no one asked like a Mentch. And at this point, not only would e/o have to ask like Mentchin, but they would have to apologize for all their obnoxious posts!November 3, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #823413
“I’m standing on principle. Did you ever hear of Derech Eretz Kodma L’torah?”
of which you are a paradigm, correct? fine. both of you are at fault. happy now? seriously…move past it. I’m asking.
Health, please would you post the source upon which your opinion is based? I would like you review it. Thank you.November 3, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #823414
Interesting point health. I always assume that (even though it’s always best to be nice) things like embarrassing someone wouldn’t apply in an anonymous internet forum. Maybe if people know who you are it would. I have to think about that.
That aside, I never once intended or wanted to embarrass you. I wanted to make my point. I apologize if you read something in an offensive manner. I was just trying to impress the way Halacha works and then defended myself when you made things personal. I am just pointing out that you are continuously making judgment calls here for other people. You might think that it wasn’t worth it for someone to become frum if they will have trouble with parts of Bein Adam Lechaveiro. So I ask, in all seriousness, if you honestly believe that they (and therefore K’lal Yisrael and therefore the world) are better off with these people not doing any Mitzvos than with them doing the ones they are?November 3, 2011 3:17 am at 3:17 am #823415
soliek -“of which you are a paradigm, correct? fine. both of you are at fault. happy now?”
Your dismissal of my Taanos and your Bittul of me by saying I’m also at fault & “happy now”, is indicitive of a lack of Derech Eretz. Maybe your Rebbeyim put up or have put up with it, but I won’t. Maybe you should impress on yourself and your fellow posters how to talk and/or apologize. Until I see some of these things – you are knocking on the wrong door!November 3, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #823416
Health, you started it by spewing the preposterous slander against the BT and making monstrous, diabolic suggestions that we should not mekarev people.November 3, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #823417
Sam2 -“You might think that it wasn’t worth it for someone to become frum if they will have trouble with parts of Bein Adam Lechaveiro. So I ask, in all seriousness, if you honestly believe that they (and therefore K’lal Yisrael and therefore the world) are better off with these people not doing any Mitzvos than with them doing the ones they are?”
YES, I Do! You obviously missed what I posted above. Here it is again – “At least when they were Frei -they had the excuse of Tinok Shenishba!”
Why do you think that embarassing s/o is a little nothing? When they are Frei & T.S. they still get Olam Haboh, but a Frum person who is Malbin Pnei etc., loses his!
And if you want to apologize to me, you have to admit that the reason I read it in an offensive manner, is because your posts were offensive!November 3, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #823418
Health, if they are tinokos she’nishbu, they are “Achicha” and “Reyacha”. If they are not , what’s with ” the exuse of being tinokos she’nishbu” that you mentioned?November 3, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #823419
This is truly unbelievable. I’m trying to be neutral and civil about this, but you;re making it exceedingly difficult for me.
I, Soliek, do hereby apologize for any insult I sent your way. I apologize for insinuating that you were at fault. It was not my place. I apologize for any sarcasm in my previous posts. I apologize for dismissing your Taanos; this is obviously an important issue for you and i am sorry for belittling your stake in it. I have done my part by sincerely apologizing. Please do yours.November 3, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #823420
Health, and creating ill-will, that you and the like-minded individuals create by their statements against BTs, is also nothing?November 3, 2011 4:13 am at 4:13 am #823421
mdd -“Health, you started it by spewing the preposterous slander against the BT and making monstrous, diabolic suggestions that we should not mekarev people.
Health, and creating ill-will, that you and the like-minded individuals create by their statements against BTs, is also nothing?”
This is your Paranoia! All I said is – we shouldn’t be making every Tom, Dick and Harry into BT’s! You keep proving my point! Did you ever look in the mirror, kiddo?
“Health, if they are tinokos she’nishbu, they are “Achicha” and “Reyacha”. If they are not , what’s with ” the exuse of being tinokos she’nishbu” that you mentioned?”
I already concided to you that they can be Achecha/Reyecha, since they are T.S., as long as you find another reason why there is No Chiyuv to Mekarev them! If you find no other reason, then I’ll have to assume that they aren’t Bechlal Arvous!November 3, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #823422
I am sorry that you got offended. I did not say anything to you that I would not have said to someone I was learning with in person. I apologize if that somehow came across the internet as if I was belittling you or insulting you.November 3, 2011 4:25 am at 4:25 am #823423
soliek -“Health, please would you post the source upon which your opinion is based?”
Rambam -Shoftim -Hilchos Mamrim, Perek 3, Mishna 3 (last half).
He says “Roie” (fitting), he doesn’t “Chaiyuv” (obligated)!November 3, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #823425
Health: It is fair to compare reform and conservatives to the karaites that the Rambam had. This requires a bit further looking into. What does the Rambam do with Kol Yisrael Areivim and Lo sa’amod Al Dam Re’acha here? This is an interesting thing to look into.
On a side note, even if there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev that doesn’t mean that anyone, ever, has a right to push away someone who wants to come closer to Yiddishkeit.November 3, 2011 11:18 am at 11:18 am #823426
Health, the reason Rambam says “rauy” is because we are talking about people who were brought up in non-Torah views and are entrenched in them. Therefore, it is not possible to obligate us to sit with people, who may strongly reject our opinion, laugh in our faces etc., and talk to them till we are blue in the face about our way. It is obvious though that if we could influence them, that’s what we should do. As the Klal Yisroel is responsible even to force the Umos (if we have the power) to follow the 7 Mitsvos as Rambam writes in Hilchos Melochim (8:10), and kal ve’ckomer — Yidden. Eliyahu HaNavi brought a korban ba’chuts to accomplish this (which is otherwise a chiyuv kores)!. Divrei Rambam have nothing to do with your totaly wrong opinions, which no sane Rov would agree to.November 3, 2011 11:22 am at 11:22 am #823427
Frei Yidden are not Goyim. By Goyim, we do not try to influence them to become Geirim. By frei Yidden, who are mechuyav in all mitsvos, it is different.November 3, 2011 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #823428
cinderella, you are very welcome. What you are doing is top-of-the-line stuff, and you care a lot about doing the right thing. As you know, very Jew should spiritually grow, it’s just that some people, as you are seeing, are at a difficult point in their life or are difficult themselves since they were raised outside the realm of Torah, or for any other reason. Even what you have done to date is more remarkable thank you realize. Have a great day!November 3, 2011 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #823430
Sam2 -“Health: It is fair to compare reform and conservatives to the karaites that the Rambam had. This requires a bit further looking into.”
No one compared anyone to anyone, but the Rambam says there is No chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden, even if they are Tinok Sneshbehs.
“What does the Rambam do with Kol Yisrael Areivim and Lo sa’amod Al Dam Re’acha here? This is an interesting thing to look into.”
That’s why I said he must not hold they are Bechlal Arvous, unless s/o comes up with another reason why there is No Chiyuv to be Mekarev.
“On a side note, even if there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev that doesn’t mean that anyone, ever, has a right to push away someone who wants to come closer to Yiddishkeit.”
And how many times does a Frei Yid come knocking on anyone’s door asking them to be Mekarev him? If it ever happenned -it is a rare occurance!November 3, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #823431
mdd -“Health, the reason Rambam says “rauy” is because we are talking about people who were brought up in non-Torah views and are entrenched in them.”
I actually didn’t expect you to admit that you are wrong, but understand the Rambam means what he says & says what he means. You can chop & dice it up as much as you want to fit your agenda but for most of the rest of us – you can’t manipulate us that there is some sort of Chiyuv!November 3, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #823432
Health: I think that everyone who comes to NCSY or another one of these programs is knocking at the door and asking someone to be Mekarev them. You would rather get rid of those programs, if I understand correctly.
Are you sure that the Rambam hold of Arvus the same way that we normally assume it? If the Rambam has a different definition of Arvus then would you agree that we might not hold like this Rambam that you quoted?November 3, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #823434
Health, I did not expect you to agree either. It is abundantly clear from all the Rambams what he would pasken. To create a whole shita, which is so anti-Torah, out of your experience with your former wife is evil!You think Rambam would say “don’t do Kiruv??November 3, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #823436Raphael KaufmanMember
I have no dog in this fight so let me offer a couple of comments.
1. Health never claimed that kiruv isn’t a mitzvah, just that there is no chiyuv to do so in the cases mentioned. Nowhere does he state or imply that kiruv organizations or programs should be disbanded or discontinued.
2. Health has taken offense when clearly none was offered. I don’t know who or what he thinks he is, but here in the semi anonymous world of an internet forum he’s just another voice like everyone else and certainly not entitled to any special deference.
3. Mod, this subject has been beaten to death. Let’s close this thread.
No need to close the thread. The argument is over. Health will no longer be responding. If the subject has been “beaten to death” then no one will post further. If someone wishes to make a point they may.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.