January 12, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #594155
I was shopping in heimishe store in Boro Park. I was admiring something and getting ready to buy it when a frum fellow shopper – whom I never met before – whispers to me: ” I noticed you admiring this item, you can get it for less at store so-and-so next block. “
I was shocked by this young lady’s unsolicited advice right inside this man’s store. I told her “If you are really trying to be so helpful why don’t you call the storeowner to the side and tell him that.” So she answers: “It’s a free country. I can say whatever I want.” And she stormed out of the store.
Needless to say, I purchased right there. Before I left, I told him about what happened.
He immediately refunded the difference (without me asking). But, he was really hurt. Maybe I shouldn’t have told him.
Was this young lady right?
If she was wrong, where is the chinuch problem. Home or school?
Was I right?
Did I handle the situation correctly?January 12, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #727440
He probably thought you mentioned that to him because you wanted the price matched.January 12, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #727441
And that woman was very wrong for what she did. I think it is even against the Torah.January 12, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #727442real-briskerMember
No your wrong and shes right, There is no reason for you to spend extra $$.January 12, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #727443YW Moderator-80Member
it may have been a little off the derech eretz but you are certainly allowed to shop for a better price, even if it means buying from a non-Jew.
to say it in the store is a bit of ill-manneredness i think but i wouldnt say it was wrong. it certainly does not go against HalachaJanuary 12, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #727444
Moderator-80: Maybe I am misremembering, but I think I learnt in halacha you can’t steer someone away from a merchant if the potential customer decided to purchase there.January 12, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #727445real-briskerMember
mod 80 – Why is it not derech eretz, why is the store owners sale more important than the customers $$?January 12, 2011 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #727446bezalelParticipant
I think it was wrong. Why should that lady choose to give you a financial gain rather than have the store get a financial gain? If it were a friend or family member then it would be a different story.January 12, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #727447
I wasn’t shopping, I was ready to buy.
If I was interested in Halachah, I would ask a Rav.
I am posting this query to fellow CR visitors to hear their opinion in Hilchos Mentchlichkeit.
The Gemara says that the Beis HaMikdosh was destroyed because He’emidu divreihem bdin Torah. Everybody did exactly what the din was.January 12, 2011 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #727448YW Moderator-80Member
gaboiim maybe you are right
i wasnt considering the fact that the customer was already in the storeJanuary 12, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #727449deiyezoogerMember
no its wrong keep theese things to yourself and if you want to save money for yourself you could go and shop thereJanuary 12, 2011 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #727452ImaofthreeParticipant
I seem to recall learning in my loshon horah sefer that if someone had ALREADY purchased an item, you are not allowed to go up to him and say I saw it for much cheaper in another store. In this case i think the person was trying to advise you in order to save you money (and I for one would have welcomed that advice). You apparently did not want that advice so you could have politely thanked her and then do what you want. I don’t think it was a great thing to go to the store owner and report to him because it made him feel bad and he could possibly find out who that person is.
From time to time, I give advise to my fellow shoppers, and I ask their advice. especially in a heimish store. We all want to help each other. Prices on food are so expensive I would be very happy to be advised how to save money. Kol Yisrael araivim zeh lezeh.January 12, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #727453oomisParticipant
You may shop where you want. Going to a store is not like making a neder. If you sign a contract, however, that might be binding (though there is a legal three day “regret” clause on most purchases over a certain cost). Why shouldn’t someone be able to get a better price? Why shouldn;t someone help a fellow Jew to save money – maybe the money saved can potentially go into Tzedaka!Personally, I would mention to the store owner that I know the price is such and such down the block, and see if he REALLY wants to make the sale and is willing to match the lower price for me. You are under no obligation to buy ANYWHERE. And even when you buy, you are not always obliged to keep the item.January 12, 2011 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #727455popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think you are wrong.January 12, 2011 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #727456
If I would tell you the name of the store you would realize that the owner could not know who the young lady was. Also, it is very very doubtful that this place has video cameras installed.
So, Loshon Hora (actually Rechilus in this case) was not an issue.January 12, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #727457HadaLXTPMember
The Chofetz Chaim writes in his Sefer Chofetz Chaim Day 119 that there are 5 things to consider before someone tells someone else that they can get it cheaper by someone else. These 5 things are only if the storekeeper is looking to cheat the customer( meaning he/she knows that one can get the item at substantially reduced price elsewhere), then and only then would a person be allowed to tell another that they should shop elsewhere. The 5 things are,
1)You must be certain that your information about the store keeper is correct.
2)You may not exaggerate the storekeepers faults.
3)Your intent must be L’TOELES, for a constructive purpose and not because you happen to dislike this particular storekeeper.
4)You must be certain that there is no way to convince the person to avoid this purchase without telling them the faults of the storekeeper.
5)You will not cause the storekeeper a loss which is not permitted by Halacha. If your warning the person will result in a major scandal which will force the storekeeper to leave town or close his business, then you must remain silent.
If all these conditions are not met then one would be guilty of speaking Rechilus.
The Chofetz Chaim adds that a competent Halachic authority should be consulted regarding how best to prevent further fraud.
I see that your not looking for an Halachic answer, but, it happens to be a Halachic matter and not only a Mentchlichkeit matter. Sorry.
editedJanuary 13, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #727459flowersParticipant
From Chofetz Chaim Hilchot Rechilut: Chapter 9
Certainly if the observer knows that a deception is in progress he should warn the customer. [One of the examples:]
C. If the shopkeeper is inflating the price. This is only if the price is inflated more by than one sixth (i.e. one fifth of the correct price); the Chafetz Chaim explains that overcharging by less than one sixth may be permissible.
Personally, as for menchlichkeit, I don’t see anything wrong with what she did. In her eyes, she was doing you a favor and while you didn’t appreciate it, a lot of people would have.January 13, 2011 12:21 am at 12:21 am #727460
We just learnt that it is against halacha (see the Chofetz Chaim posted by HadaLXTP). There is nothing more to really discuss.January 13, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #727461mom of a fewMember
bottom line lady was wrong for mentioning it to you and you were wrong for mentioning it to the store owner in her name. You could have said to him that you are buying by him b/c you like to shop there but that for his sake he should know that you “saw it” cheaper down the block. I have a business and if I think that I am the only one who carries an item I may charge a bit more that our standard mark up so perhaps if someone mentions that they saw it cheaper I may have a chance to adjust my price to compete.January 13, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #727462smartcookieMember
********Achosid and Sheigetz********
Your tones sound very similar….and also very familiar?????January 13, 2011 1:04 am at 1:04 am #727463ImaofthreeParticipant
Hada, thanks for writing the halacha from the sefer shmiras halashon. been a long time since I learned it and I should review.January 13, 2011 4:24 am at 4:24 am #727464HadaLXTPMember
As an added note, I added a blessing at the end of my post and it got edited. I don’t remember if giving blessings is one of the things not allowed to be written in the Coffee room. If someone (Mods) can explain please why I was edited I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
It was edited for a typo, feel free to repost your blessing.January 13, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #727465commonsenseParticipant
Holymoe you sound as if you are male and you say it was a woman who approached you. Many women who shop look around for the best price, I know it bothers me to buy something in one store and then see it a few minutes later in a different store for significantly less. It also bothers me that there is such a variety of prices for the exact same item being sold in similar locations such as on 13th ave. So this woman wanted to save you from feeling stupid by paying extra when it is easily available at a cheaper price. You may not care but there are many of us who do. you do not say what type of item it is, but sometimes the difference in price is very significant.January 13, 2011 5:26 am at 5:26 am #727466
So halacha doesn’t matter if it says you can’t do this?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.