Anti-Fruminism

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  • #599115

    brainy
    Participant

    Don’t you men believe that Torah is what we are here for? Don’t you women believe that supporting and encouraging your husband and children is your role in this world? It is. The purpose of neither man nor woman is to make a “good parnassa.”

    Why are so many ostensibly frum people so anti the most important thing in life?

    I overheard the following comment on the street by a woman:

    “In the shtetl, the entire community supported the one talmid chacham, nowadays everybody is learning in yeshiva”

    First of all, you don’t know a thing about the shtetl. You have no idea what time period you are talking about. Not about what country or group of countries you are talking about. You have no idea what a shtetl is.

    Secondly, you do not have a clue about what happened in the shtetl. Shtetl to you has the same meaning as bla bla bloobla. You are completely making up what you thing probably existed in the “shtetl.” If I would have stopped you and said, “actually that’s not how it was in the shtetl,” I am certain you would have responded, “oh.”

    Thirdly, who cares what happened in the “shtetl” – twelve year old kids had to go to work in this “shtetl”. Are you sending your twelve year old children out to work? That’s how it was in the “shtetl.”

    Maybe in the “shtetl” everyone worked because they had to, just like the 12 year old children had to. If they had the opportunity to learn the way we do today, they probably would have. And then what would you use to take your Anti-Fruminism out on?

    I’m not at all granting that this was the case, but do you think it was ideal that there was one talmid chacham in the whole shtetl or bla bla bloobla? Every Jew is obligated to be a talmid chacham.

    I am appalled that many so-called “frum” Jews share your faulty view.

    #807581

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Before you become appalled, perhaps you may want to look into the topic further.

    There is a shiur from Rabbi Daniel Rapp on the YU website.

    This shiur delves into the negative side of the current system. Feel free to disagree, but I reserve the right to be equally appalled at the system you advocate.

    edited for weblink

    #807582

    Sam2
    Participant

    This site won’t allow a link to yutorah? That website is one of the best compendiums of Torah in the world.

    I don’t set policy, and I can’t research every site that is linked. I generally allow hebrewbooks. -95

    #807583

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Brainy, I don’t think every Jew is obligated to become a Talmid Chacham. I don’t think you’ll find any halachic sources to support you, because not everyone is capable of being a talmud chacham. This, among many others, was a point addressed in the shiur. In fact, the Netziv on parshat Eikev and Shlach (i don’t know the passuk in Eikev off hand, but it was the last Emek Davar on Shlach) says the opposite. The Netziv breaks clal yisroel down into four categories. The leaders, who’s cheif obligation is yirat hashaem (not to be a talmud chacham; not even talmud torah for that matter), secondly there are the talmidai chachamim, who’s chief obligation is to be oisek in torah and be makpid on the mitzvos. the third is the ba’al habatim and the fourth is the women and children. The Netziv explains that the pasuk in eykev teaches that Hashem wants different things from different people.

    #807584

    Sam2
    Participant

    In that case, I would advise that yutorah is worth researching and allowing, in my opinion.

    #807585

    Toi
    Participant

    ya the netziv surely was MO. what happened to equal oppurtunity and rights – i want to try an dbecome TC and learn in yeshiva. leave me my rights and leave me alone.

    #807586

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Toi: Regarding your sarcastic remark about the netziv, you don’t know how right you are. As for becoming a talmid chacham, enjoy, and I wish you much hatzlacha.

    #807587

    brainy
    Participant

    Brainy, I don’t think every Jew is obligated to become a Talmid Chacham.

    Every talmid chacham today would be considered an utter am haaretz two or three hundred years ago. He would demand no respect. What then makes him a talmid chacham?

    He is a talmid chacham because under the present circumstances, in a weak generation, he has accomplished significantly relative to his humble potential.

    Every Jew, then can accomplish significantly relative to his potential. This is required of every Jew. (At the very least it is required of a significant portion of Jews, not one per blooblagleebla).

    #807589

    squeak
    Participant

    To mod 95, good call on blocking the site. Much of what can be found there would not pass moderation standards if posted here (that doesn’t mean to say nothing on the site is OK). If the OP intended to post something acceptable, he could copy and paste (or paraphrase, if it’s an audio shiur). I suspect that the shiur in question is not appropriate for this audience.

    This discussion started out as ridiculous, and now the tangential makes the OP seem sublime.

    #807590

    brainy
    Participant

    Squeak, please read before you make yourself look silly. I made no reference to any shiur and I did not try to post a link.

    #807591

    brainy
    Participant

    I am not saying that people can’t agree with my view. What bothers me is the hatred with which they do it. Learning in yeshiva is to you a bigger crime than any other sin. I see no such passion when you discuss people who lie, or say lashon hara, or are paid in cash and don’t report their income, sins far greater than learning in yeshiva. The anger and hatred you have towards people devoting their entire lives to what they feel Hashem demands of them is the part that is unjustifiable.

    #807592

    squeak
    Participant

    So, “brainy”, are you saying that you are the same person as Abelleh? Otherwise, you are the one who looks silly as a result of failing to read.

    #807593

    collegegrad
    Member

    Brainy, there is definitely a problem with our system. Learning is wonderful but there is a time and place for everything. The fact that everyone is expected to learn and looked down upon if they don’t is wrong. Also, there comes a time when a man has to support the family and sitting in learning while wonderful does not pay the bills.

    #807594

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    this thread is gonna become all those who dont learn calling those who do leeches…and those who do calling those who dont bums. sums it up well doesnt it?

    </thread>

    #807595

    brainy
    Participant

    Squeak, I gather, then, that you do not know what OP means.

    College grad, I agree with you that The fact that everyone is expected to learn and looked down upon if they don’t is wrong.

    But for the people that are cut out for learning, and want to, and have a spouse who wants them to, they should not be looked down upon and be expected to not learn. And they will become a Rebbi and they will make a modest living, and I assure you that none of these people would have a problem with someone whose passion is to got to school for 10 years to become a mathematician and make the same modest salary.

    My issue is more with the attitude than the argument.

    #807596

    msseeker
    Member

    “Learning in yeshiva is to you a bigger crime than any other sin.”

    Exactly. One poster here insisted that kollel is worse than TV.

    #807597

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    truthsharer; Good point, I have no Koach tonight to get all worked up.

    The point about hating TRUE b’nei torah even young ones,

    is sad but true. It has been a problem for many generations.

    It’s just sick that now it is many so called religious people, who hate, as opposed to then when it was tzedokim, maskilim, zionists or other non orthodox jews.

    If you really love HB”H you wouldn’t be able to hate TRUE Bnei Torah!

    #807598

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    truthsharer, what in the world is that supposed to mean? Are you aware of the kind of Talmidei Chachamim that existed just a few generations ago? How many people that Pasken Shaalos do you know of that are well versed in all of Shas and Poskim, as if they just learned it?

    Just to throw something in to the Kollel conversation, in past generations people would learn for hours after completing their day’s work. Today it is rarely possible to grow and amass great knowledge in Torah.

    #807600

    yahud
    Member

    somewhere in maseches pesuchim: “ameratsim hate us more than goyim do , and they wifes the most of all”

    #807601

    Toi
    Participant

    IS- i dont know why you found my remark offensive. it is common knowledg (yes, i know this is the typical uneducated way of arguing but i have no koiach to start thinking its nearly midnight) that MO usurped certain gedolim of their positions and posited that they were MO, even when many examples of these gedolims positions are clearly at odds with MO. most notably the netziv and r shamshon r hirsch. im sure youll give me a long reply (if youll deign to, after all im but a kollel yungerman and maybe not worthy of reply) citing examples of how MO didnt skew their hashkafos and its the chareidim that did blah blah blah, thats ok. i just want to point out that id have an easier time convincing you that that toeva laws are within my rights more readily than learning in kollel, and thats a problem.

    #807602

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    1- I don’t know what about my post made you think I was offended. I wished you much hatzlacha.

    2- IOW, you are telling me “you’re right but it doesn’t matter.” To “usurp” a yeshivish phrase, shkoyich.

    #807603

    Toi
    Participant

    i didnt say you were right, FYI. im just not well-versed enough in the netzivs writings to shlugg you up. and r shamshon r hirschs i am, but im goin to bed. and you didnt adress the end of my post. shtikah k….

    #807604

    hello99
    Member

    the Birkas Shmuel in the end of Kiddushin writes that there is a chiyuv on every man to become a Gadol BaTorah

    #807605

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    You have no reason to say that. Have a good night, and a nice life.

    Thank you for reminding me why I am no longer a hat.

    #807606

    shlishi
    Member

    In addition to the Birkas Shmuel hello99 mentioned, Rav Moshe writes in a teshuva (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah) that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah.

    #807607

    lesschumras
    Participant

    shlishi,

    But not everyone has the mental capacity to do so. Those that don’t should not be in kolel at the communities ( or tax payors )expense. They should be learning is shiurim either before work after work or both

    #807608

    tro11
    Member

    In fact, the Netziv on parshat Eikev and Shlach (i don’t know the passuk in Eikev off hand, but it was the last Emek Davar on Shlach) says the opposite.

    The story you are quoting about the Netziv that even he was going to become a shoemaker is a valid point. But if you look at the end of the story, he heard his parents discussing it and he decided that he would become a talmid chacham. And lo and behold he did. So the op is right.

    #807609

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Every talmid chacham today would be considered an utter am haaretz two or three hundred years ago

    Hogwash.

    #807611

    Sam2
    Participant

    I think the world today has become too polarized. The middle ground seems obvious to me. Everyone should learn when they can. If you can afford to learn all day, great. If you can’t but learn whenever you can, that’s also great. We have turned things like learning into a polarizing matter. The only thing that should matter is how much of his “free” time a person spends learning, not how free time he has or how much learning he gets done. There is no reason to resent or attack anyone who has more or less time than you to learn.

    #807613

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: There is a reason to attack someone who flat out tells you that you are a bad person for supporting him while he learns.

    #807614

    Sam2
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik: And there is an equal reason to attack someone who doesn’t learn as much as he can. The issue is that learning in Kollel has become a status and a symbol-from both sides of the fence. If people would stop comparing themselves and their communities and just concentrate on making themselves better then a lot of K’lal Yisroel’s issues would be solved.

    I think a lot of these issues started when something drastic needed to be done to stop so many people from becoming Maskilim. Since then, those trying to hold onto Yiddishkeit have become overly defensive to the point where if someone is not doing exactly what I am then they aren’t following authentic Judaism. It’s a huge problem. We have forgotten “Eilu V’eilu Divrei Elokim Chayim”.

    #807615

    mdd
    Member

    Tora4ever613, I do disagree. If a Yid sits and learns, even if he is not learning up a lot, he still does a very big mitsva — he is not wasting his time, chas ve’sholom. And it is not “an easy way out”, unless you are talking about someone getting a lot of money in support but managing to totally “butel” away — an unusual case.

    If you want to tell me that we can’t afford to have everybody in Kollel for a long time — I agree. You must also remember that supporting people in learning is also a very big mitsva.

    #807616

    Abelleh
    Participant

    tro11: I was not quoting a story about the Netziv. The Emek Davar is the perush the Netziv wrote on Chumash.

    Brainy: It seems as though your making a logical jump from using the fact that every Jew must fulfill his potential to justify the current kollel system, which by the way was actually invented by Rav Aharon Kotler. The current Kollel system Lakewood has now did not resemble the Kollels in europe at all. If anyone wants, I can provide source material for this

    #807617

    feif un:

    When they tell me it’s my responsibility to support them so they can sit and learn without worrying about housing

    So you recognize that it is your responsibility to support lomdei Torah, but you don’t appreciate being reminded of it. Like a husband whose wife nudges her husband to fulfill the terms of her kesubah. I can see why that would be annoying, although I’ve never seen anyone do it myself.

    or feeding their families, while their wives are working two jobs (whenever they’re not on maternity leave!)

    From this part of your comment it sounds as though you have a problem with Jewish people who don’t use birth control when it is not permitted to them. Can you clarify?

    #807618

    torah4ever:

    However he must be able to support his family first. If one isnt accomplishing in kollel which is basically what is happening today then why hurt yourself and your family?! Kollel is just the “easy way out” in todays frum world and its ridiculous.

    For something that you feel very strongly about, it doesn’t seem as though you’ve thought it all the way through.

    “why hurt yourself and your family”

    “Kollel is just the easy way out”

    Is living well below the poverty line, without even enough money to buy enough food for Shabbos, in order to learn all day your definition of “the easy way out”? What is it “the easy way out” of?

    Maybe you feel that having no furniture beyond simple beds, a table and 4 chairs is taking the “easy way out”?

    How about the guy that has to buy a 50 shekel lulav and esrog package or the guy that has to be repayed for borrowing 3 shekel bus fair to make it through the month is taking “the easy way out”?

    Maybe the guy that gets up at 5 am to go to a minyan to pays $200 a month even though he doesn’t get home until 11 pm is “taking the easy way out”.

    How about the guy that goes to a night koillel (that is, until 10 pm) that pays in random food supplies from the local makolet to help get through the month, is that called “the easy way out”?

    I know people who live like all of these. I’ll be honest. I just don’t see what you’re talking about.

    People must attend college,work hard, thus enabling them to support their families.

    Can you cite the pasuk that says “And thou shall work hard”? Supporting a family is a mitzvah like any other, if it is efshi al yedei acheirim how are you mevatel from Talmud Torah which is kneged kulam?

    #807619

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech: No, I don’t recognize that it’s my job to support them. If it was limited to the best, the future leaders, then yes, it would be – but not the way it is now. I support some people who I believe have a future as a leader – people who are roshei kollel, who have semichah and are looking for positions, etc. but not people just sitting and learning without a plan for the future.

    #807620

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech: Someone who doesn’t sit in Kollel all day is certainly not mevatel torah. The Rambam says in numerous places that other mitzvos need to come before Talmud Torah, or els nothing would ever get accomplished, because people would be m’chuyav to learn every second of the day.

    #807622

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Can anyone provide a source to say that one has on obligation of any sort to support someone in learning?

    #807624

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: We essentially agree.

    Abbelleh: Not even Rav Aharon, but Rav Shneur.

    DH: Since you are on one side of the fence, as it were, you seem to lack perspective about the other side. You say:

    So you recognize that it is your responsibility to support lomdei Torah, but you don’t appreciate being reminded of it. Like a husband whose wife nudges her husband to fulfill the terms of her kesubah.

    That is what those on the supporting end find aggravating — that a random guy tells you that he is entitled to your money mitzad hadin (es kimt mir), that he can say “efshi al ydei achaeirim” “someone else will take care of my responsibilities.” It’s compounded when these same people then go and say that the person’s means of support, by which he is also supporting them, is treif.

    #807625

    Abelleh
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik: Do you know where Rav Shneur learns this concept from? I have a very hard time believing this, for the current Kollel system Lakewood uses now did not exist before Rav Aharon Kutler.

    #807626

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I have from reliable sources that it was not Rav Aharon Kotler, but his son Rav Shneur who instituted the kollel system lakewood uses today. Rav Aharon expected the yungerleit to be there for a shorter time. As far as I know, it was his chiddush. According to your sources that it was Rav Aharon, where did he learn it from?

    #807628

    Astrix
    Participant

    Every system has its goods and bads………The current yeshiva system of certain guys not marrying girls whose father cant support the to learn isnt a good thing for anybody.guys arent getting married and girls are just getting older.

    Why should people have no money and food to put on their table?Why should their wives walk around looking shlumpy?

    Learn and Work.Thats what the mishnah says.The gemara in Berachos also said lots did like Rav Shimon and didnt make it.

    obviously its cool that theres like a million people learning..but sometimes people need to work when you have a family.

    #807629

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Abelleh: True, on all points except that one historical detail. It was a generation more modern than you thought.

    #807630

    Health
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik -“I have from reliable sources that it was not Rav Aharon Kotler, but his son Rav Shneur who instituted the kollel system lakewood uses today. Rav Aharon expected the yungerleit to be there for a shorter time. As far as I know, it was his chiddush.”

    Noone ever posted this before including me:

    As a former BMG guy, you’re correct. When I learnt in a Lakewood branch as a kid, the Rosh Hayeshiva, a Talmid of R’ Aharon said he held 5 -6 years in Kollel at the most. R’ Shneur started it because he couldn’t just tell guys to leave, he was too nice. The four that took over wanted to start getting rid of some of the older guys by not paying them. But Rav Schach Zt’l came along and said you can’t tell anyone to leave. So really this comes from EY, where they all (alot) learn forever in Kollel. And I think the reason in EY that they started with learning forever, was so they wouldn’t have to go to the army, which is Kefira (going to the army)!

    #807631

    twisted
    Participant

    The Chizkuni on the shovim min hamaarocha: devarim 20;5-7, quoting from Sotah 44,”Tannu rabanan: the torah is teaching here derech eretz, one should first build a house, then plant a vinyard, only then marry …

    Imagine the age gap had we been in tune with the mussar of chazal.

    #807633

    Abelleh
    Participant

    Even if the current Kollel system would only allow people to learn for a few years, it would still be unprecedented. The Kollels that existed in Europe only had a select few learning in them, and they were expected to become a Rav of a town or a Rosh Yeshiva after they graduated Kollel (which is YU’s system), but the idea where everyone went to Kollel never existed.

    #807634

    Toi
    Participant

    there werent that many people in kollel because it was physically impossiblr. soon itll be back to that.

    #807635

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Abbelleh: Not arguing at all.

    #807636

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Health,

    What would you have done in 1942 when, if you were of draft age, had been drafted by the army? Told them it was kfira and refused?

    #807637

    Health
    Participant

    lesschumras – “What would you have done in 1942 when, if you were of draft age, had been drafted by the army?”

    First of all, in 1942, the Medina wasn’t in existance. Maybe you’re talking about the US Army, as far as I know, there isn’t a problem with Kefira in the US Army. Second of all, I’m not the one who Paskened you can’t join the Israeli Army. So if a person, who isn’t in Yeshiva and can’t get a Ptur, (most try & do get exemtions), should ask a Shaila if joining the Israeli Army is Yahrog V’al Yavor or not!

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