- This topic has 130 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by YW Moderator-80.
September 2, 2011 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #599115
Don’t you men believe that Torah is what we are here for? Don’t you women believe that supporting and encouraging your husband and children is your role in this world? It is. The purpose of neither man nor woman is to make a “good parnassa.”
Why are so many ostensibly frum people so anti the most important thing in life?
I overheard the following comment on the street by a woman:
“In the shtetl, the entire community supported the one talmid chacham, nowadays everybody is learning in yeshiva”
First of all, you don’t know a thing about the shtetl. You have no idea what time period you are talking about. Not about what country or group of countries you are talking about. You have no idea what a shtetl is.
Secondly, you do not have a clue about what happened in the shtetl. Shtetl to you has the same meaning as bla bla bloobla. You are completely making up what you thing probably existed in the “shtetl.” If I would have stopped you and said, “actually that’s not how it was in the shtetl,” I am certain you would have responded, “oh.”
Thirdly, who cares what happened in the “shtetl” – twelve year old kids had to go to work in this “shtetl”. Are you sending your twelve year old children out to work? That’s how it was in the “shtetl.”
Maybe in the “shtetl” everyone worked because they had to, just like the 12 year old children had to. If they had the opportunity to learn the way we do today, they probably would have. And then what would you use to take your Anti-Fruminism out on?
I’m not at all granting that this was the case, but do you think it was ideal that there was one talmid chacham in the whole shtetl or bla bla bloobla? Every Jew is obligated to be a talmid chacham.
I am appalled that many so-called “frum” Jews share your faulty view.September 2, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #807581
Before you become appalled, perhaps you may want to look into the topic further.
There is a shiur from Rabbi Daniel Rapp on the YU website.
This shiur delves into the negative side of the current system. Feel free to disagree, but I reserve the right to be equally appalled at the system you advocate.
edited for weblinkSeptember 2, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #807582
This site won’t allow a link to yutorah? That website is one of the best compendiums of Torah in the world.
I don’t set policy, and I can’t research every site that is linked. I generally allow hebrewbooks. -95September 2, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #807583
Brainy, I don’t think every Jew is obligated to become a Talmid Chacham. I don’t think you’ll find any halachic sources to support you, because not everyone is capable of being a talmud chacham. This, among many others, was a point addressed in the shiur. In fact, the Netziv on parshat Eikev and Shlach (i don’t know the passuk in Eikev off hand, but it was the last Emek Davar on Shlach) says the opposite. The Netziv breaks clal yisroel down into four categories. The leaders, who’s cheif obligation is yirat hashaem (not to be a talmud chacham; not even talmud torah for that matter), secondly there are the talmidai chachamim, who’s chief obligation is to be oisek in torah and be makpid on the mitzvos. the third is the ba’al habatim and the fourth is the women and children. The Netziv explains that the pasuk in eykev teaches that Hashem wants different things from different people.September 2, 2011 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #807584
In that case, I would advise that yutorah is worth researching and allowing, in my opinion.September 3, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #807585
ya the netziv surely was MO. what happened to equal oppurtunity and rights – i want to try an dbecome TC and learn in yeshiva. leave me my rights and leave me alone.September 4, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #807586
Toi: Regarding your sarcastic remark about the netziv, you don’t know how right you are. As for becoming a talmid chacham, enjoy, and I wish you much hatzlacha.September 4, 2011 1:58 am at 1:58 am #807587
Brainy, I don’t think every Jew is obligated to become a Talmid Chacham.
Every talmid chacham today would be considered an utter am haaretz two or three hundred years ago. He would demand no respect. What then makes him a talmid chacham?
He is a talmid chacham because under the present circumstances, in a weak generation, he has accomplished significantly relative to his humble potential.
Every Jew, then can accomplish significantly relative to his potential. This is required of every Jew. (At the very least it is required of a significant portion of Jews, not one per blooblagleebla).September 4, 2011 3:02 am at 3:02 am #807589squeakParticipant
To mod 95, good call on blocking the site. Much of what can be found there would not pass moderation standards if posted here (that doesn’t mean to say nothing on the site is OK). If the OP intended to post something acceptable, he could copy and paste (or paraphrase, if it’s an audio shiur). I suspect that the shiur in question is not appropriate for this audience.
This discussion started out as ridiculous, and now the tangential makes the OP seem sublime.September 4, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #807590
Squeak, please read before you make yourself look silly. I made no reference to any shiur and I did not try to post a link.September 4, 2011 3:25 am at 3:25 am #807591
I am not saying that people can’t agree with my view. What bothers me is the hatred with which they do it. Learning in yeshiva is to you a bigger crime than any other sin. I see no such passion when you discuss people who lie, or say lashon hara, or are paid in cash and don’t report their income, sins far greater than learning in yeshiva. The anger and hatred you have towards people devoting their entire lives to what they feel Hashem demands of them is the part that is unjustifiable.September 4, 2011 3:39 am at 3:39 am #807592squeakParticipant
So, “brainy”, are you saying that you are the same person as Abelleh? Otherwise, you are the one who looks silly as a result of failing to read.September 4, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #807593collegegradMember
Brainy, there is definitely a problem with our system. Learning is wonderful but there is a time and place for everything. The fact that everyone is expected to learn and looked down upon if they don’t is wrong. Also, there comes a time when a man has to support the family and sitting in learning while wonderful does not pay the bills.September 4, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #807594bombmaniacParticipant
this thread is gonna become all those who dont learn calling those who do leeches…and those who do calling those who dont bums. sums it up well doesnt it?
</thread>September 4, 2011 4:04 am at 4:04 am #807595
Squeak, I gather, then, that you do not know what OP means.
College grad, I agree with you that The fact that everyone is expected to learn and looked down upon if they don’t is wrong.
But for the people that are cut out for learning, and want to, and have a spouse who wants them to, they should not be looked down upon and be expected to not learn. And they will become a Rebbi and they will make a modest living, and I assure you that none of these people would have a problem with someone whose passion is to got to school for 10 years to become a mathematician and make the same modest salary.
My issue is more with the attitude than the argument.September 4, 2011 4:59 am at 4:59 am #807596msseekerMember
“Learning in yeshiva is to you a bigger crime than any other sin.”
Exactly. One poster here insisted that kollel is worse than TV.September 4, 2011 5:34 am at 5:34 am #807597bein_hasdorimParticipant
truthsharer; Good point, I have no Koach tonight to get all worked up.
The point about hating TRUE b’nei torah even young ones,
is sad but true. It has been a problem for many generations.
It’s just sick that now it is many so called religious people, who hate, as opposed to then when it was tzedokim, maskilim, zionists or other non orthodox jews.
If you really love HB”H you wouldn’t be able to hate TRUE Bnei Torah!September 4, 2011 7:48 am at 7:48 am #807598HaLeiViParticipant
truthsharer, what in the world is that supposed to mean? Are you aware of the kind of Talmidei Chachamim that existed just a few generations ago? How many people that Pasken Shaalos do you know of that are well versed in all of Shas and Poskim, as if they just learned it?
Just to throw something in to the Kollel conversation, in past generations people would learn for hours after completing their day’s work. Today it is rarely possible to grow and amass great knowledge in Torah.September 4, 2011 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #807600yahudMember
somewhere in maseches pesuchim: “ameratsim hate us more than goyim do , and they wifes the most of all”September 4, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #807601
IS- i dont know why you found my remark offensive. it is common knowledg (yes, i know this is the typical uneducated way of arguing but i have no koiach to start thinking its nearly midnight) that MO usurped certain gedolim of their positions and posited that they were MO, even when many examples of these gedolims positions are clearly at odds with MO. most notably the netziv and r shamshon r hirsch. im sure youll give me a long reply (if youll deign to, after all im but a kollel yungerman and maybe not worthy of reply) citing examples of how MO didnt skew their hashkafos and its the chareidim that did blah blah blah, thats ok. i just want to point out that id have an easier time convincing you that that toeva laws are within my rights more readily than learning in kollel, and thats a problem.September 4, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #807602
1- I don’t know what about my post made you think I was offended. I wished you much hatzlacha.
2- IOW, you are telling me “you’re right but it doesn’t matter.” To “usurp” a yeshivish phrase, shkoyich.September 4, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #807603
i didnt say you were right, FYI. im just not well-versed enough in the netzivs writings to shlugg you up. and r shamshon r hirschs i am, but im goin to bed. and you didnt adress the end of my post. shtikah k….September 4, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #807604hello99Participant
the Birkas Shmuel in the end of Kiddushin writes that there is a chiyuv on every man to become a Gadol BaTorahSeptember 4, 2011 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #807605
You have no reason to say that. Have a good night, and a nice life.
Thank you for reminding me why I am no longer a hat.September 4, 2011 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #807606shlishiMember
In addition to the Birkas Shmuel hello99 mentioned, Rav Moshe writes in a teshuva (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah) that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah.September 4, 2011 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #807607lesschumrasParticipant
But not everyone has the mental capacity to do so. Those that don’t should not be in kolel at the communities ( or tax payors )expense. They should be learning is shiurim either before work after work or bothSeptember 5, 2011 12:13 am at 12:13 am #807608tro11Member
In fact, the Netziv on parshat Eikev and Shlach (i don’t know the passuk in Eikev off hand, but it was the last Emek Davar on Shlach) says the opposite.
The story you are quoting about the Netziv that even he was going to become a shoemaker is a valid point. But if you look at the end of the story, he heard his parents discussing it and he decided that he would become a talmid chacham. And lo and behold he did. So the op is right.September 5, 2011 12:15 am at 12:15 am #807609yitayningwutParticipant
Every talmid chacham today would be considered an utter am haaretz two or three hundred years ago
Hogwash.September 5, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #807611
I think the world today has become too polarized. The middle ground seems obvious to me. Everyone should learn when they can. If you can afford to learn all day, great. If you can’t but learn whenever you can, that’s also great. We have turned things like learning into a polarizing matter. The only thing that should matter is how much of his “free” time a person spends learning, not how free time he has or how much learning he gets done. There is no reason to resent or attack anyone who has more or less time than you to learn.September 5, 2011 2:24 am at 2:24 am #807613
Sam2: There is a reason to attack someone who flat out tells you that you are a bad person for supporting him while he learns.September 5, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #807614
ItcheSrulik: And there is an equal reason to attack someone who doesn’t learn as much as he can. The issue is that learning in Kollel has become a status and a symbol-from both sides of the fence. If people would stop comparing themselves and their communities and just concentrate on making themselves better then a lot of K’lal Yisroel’s issues would be solved.
I think a lot of these issues started when something drastic needed to be done to stop so many people from becoming Maskilim. Since then, those trying to hold onto Yiddishkeit have become overly defensive to the point where if someone is not doing exactly what I am then they aren’t following authentic Judaism. It’s a huge problem. We have forgotten “Eilu V’eilu Divrei Elokim Chayim”.September 5, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #807615mddMember
Tora4ever613, I do disagree. If a Yid sits and learns, even if he is not learning up a lot, he still does a very big mitsva — he is not wasting his time, chas ve’sholom. And it is not “an easy way out”, unless you are talking about someone getting a lot of money in support but managing to totally “butel” away — an unusual case.
If you want to tell me that we can’t afford to have everybody in Kollel for a long time — I agree. You must also remember that supporting people in learning is also a very big mitsva.September 5, 2011 3:51 am at 3:51 am #807616
tro11: I was not quoting a story about the Netziv. The Emek Davar is the perush the Netziv wrote on Chumash.
Brainy: It seems as though your making a logical jump from using the fact that every Jew must fulfill his potential to justify the current kollel system, which by the way was actually invented by Rav Aharon Kotler. The current Kollel system Lakewood has now did not resemble the Kollels in europe at all. If anyone wants, I can provide source material for thisSeptember 5, 2011 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #807617Derech HaMelechMember
When they tell me it’s my responsibility to support them so they can sit and learn without worrying about housing
So you recognize that it is your responsibility to support lomdei Torah, but you don’t appreciate being reminded of it. Like a husband whose wife nudges her husband to fulfill the terms of her kesubah. I can see why that would be annoying, although I’ve never seen anyone do it myself.
or feeding their families, while their wives are working two jobs (whenever they’re not on maternity leave!)
From this part of your comment it sounds as though you have a problem with Jewish people who don’t use birth control when it is not permitted to them. Can you clarify?September 5, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #807618Derech HaMelechMember
However he must be able to support his family first. If one isnt accomplishing in kollel which is basically what is happening today then why hurt yourself and your family?! Kollel is just the “easy way out” in todays frum world and its ridiculous.
For something that you feel very strongly about, it doesn’t seem as though you’ve thought it all the way through.
“why hurt yourself and your family”
“Kollel is just the easy way out”
Is living well below the poverty line, without even enough money to buy enough food for Shabbos, in order to learn all day your definition of “the easy way out”? What is it “the easy way out” of?
Maybe you feel that having no furniture beyond simple beds, a table and 4 chairs is taking the “easy way out”?
How about the guy that has to buy a 50 shekel lulav and esrog package or the guy that has to be repayed for borrowing 3 shekel bus fair to make it through the month is taking “the easy way out”?
Maybe the guy that gets up at 5 am to go to a minyan to pays $200 a month even though he doesn’t get home until 11 pm is “taking the easy way out”.
How about the guy that goes to a night koillel (that is, until 10 pm) that pays in random food supplies from the local makolet to help get through the month, is that called “the easy way out”?
I know people who live like all of these. I’ll be honest. I just don’t see what you’re talking about.
People must attend college,work hard, thus enabling them to support their families.
Can you cite the pasuk that says “And thou shall work hard”? Supporting a family is a mitzvah like any other, if it is efshi al yedei acheirim how are you mevatel from Talmud Torah which is kneged kulam?September 5, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #807619Feif UnParticipant
Derech HaMelech: No, I don’t recognize that it’s my job to support them. If it was limited to the best, the future leaders, then yes, it would be – but not the way it is now. I support some people who I believe have a future as a leader – people who are roshei kollel, who have semichah and are looking for positions, etc. but not people just sitting and learning without a plan for the future.September 5, 2011 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #807620
Derech HaMelech: Someone who doesn’t sit in Kollel all day is certainly not mevatel torah. The Rambam says in numerous places that other mitzvos need to come before Talmud Torah, or els nothing would ever get accomplished, because people would be m’chuyav to learn every second of the day.September 5, 2011 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #807622
Can anyone provide a source to say that one has on obligation of any sort to support someone in learning?September 5, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #807624
Sam2: We essentially agree.
Abbelleh: Not even Rav Aharon, but Rav Shneur.
DH: Since you are on one side of the fence, as it were, you seem to lack perspective about the other side. You say:
So you recognize that it is your responsibility to support lomdei Torah, but you don’t appreciate being reminded of it. Like a husband whose wife nudges her husband to fulfill the terms of her kesubah.
That is what those on the supporting end find aggravating — that a random guy tells you that he is entitled to your money mitzad hadin (es kimt mir), that he can say “efshi al ydei achaeirim” “someone else will take care of my responsibilities.” It’s compounded when these same people then go and say that the person’s means of support, by which he is also supporting them, is treif.September 5, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #807625
ItcheSrulik: Do you know where Rav Shneur learns this concept from? I have a very hard time believing this, for the current Kollel system Lakewood uses now did not exist before Rav Aharon Kutler.September 5, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #807626
I have from reliable sources that it was not Rav Aharon Kotler, but his son Rav Shneur who instituted the kollel system lakewood uses today. Rav Aharon expected the yungerleit to be there for a shorter time. As far as I know, it was his chiddush. According to your sources that it was Rav Aharon, where did he learn it from?September 5, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #807628AstrixParticipant
Every system has its goods and bads………The current yeshiva system of certain guys not marrying girls whose father cant support the to learn isnt a good thing for anybody.guys arent getting married and girls are just getting older.
Why should people have no money and food to put on their table?Why should their wives walk around looking shlumpy?
Learn and Work.Thats what the mishnah says.The gemara in Berachos also said lots did like Rav Shimon and didnt make it.
obviously its cool that theres like a million people learning..but sometimes people need to work when you have a family.September 5, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #807629
Abelleh: True, on all points except that one historical detail. It was a generation more modern than you thought.September 5, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #807630HealthParticipant
ItcheSrulik -“I have from reliable sources that it was not Rav Aharon Kotler, but his son Rav Shneur who instituted the kollel system lakewood uses today. Rav Aharon expected the yungerleit to be there for a shorter time. As far as I know, it was his chiddush.”
Noone ever posted this before including me:
As a former BMG guy, you’re correct. When I learnt in a Lakewood branch as a kid, the Rosh Hayeshiva, a Talmid of R’ Aharon said he held 5 -6 years in Kollel at the most. R’ Shneur started it because he couldn’t just tell guys to leave, he was too nice. The four that took over wanted to start getting rid of some of the older guys by not paying them. But Rav Schach Zt’l came along and said you can’t tell anyone to leave. So really this comes from EY, where they all (alot) learn forever in Kollel. And I think the reason in EY that they started with learning forever, was so they wouldn’t have to go to the army, which is Kefira (going to the army)!September 5, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #807631twistedParticipant
The Chizkuni on the shovim min hamaarocha: devarim 20;5-7, quoting from Sotah 44,”Tannu rabanan: the torah is teaching here derech eretz, one should first build a house, then plant a vinyard, only then marry …
Imagine the age gap had we been in tune with the mussar of chazal.September 5, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #807633
Even if the current Kollel system would only allow people to learn for a few years, it would still be unprecedented. The Kollels that existed in Europe only had a select few learning in them, and they were expected to become a Rav of a town or a Rosh Yeshiva after they graduated Kollel (which is YU’s system), but the idea where everyone went to Kollel never existed.September 5, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #807634
there werent that many people in kollel because it was physically impossiblr. soon itll be back to that.September 5, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #807635
Abbelleh: Not arguing at all.September 5, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #807636lesschumrasParticipant
What would you have done in 1942 when, if you were of draft age, had been drafted by the army? Told them it was kfira and refused?September 5, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #807637HealthParticipant
lesschumras – “What would you have done in 1942 when, if you were of draft age, had been drafted by the army?”
First of all, in 1942, the Medina wasn’t in existance. Maybe you’re talking about the US Army, as far as I know, there isn’t a problem with Kefira in the US Army. Second of all, I’m not the one who Paskened you can’t join the Israeli Army. So if a person, who isn’t in Yeshiva and can’t get a Ptur, (most try & do get exemtions), should ask a Shaila if joining the Israeli Army is Yahrog V’al Yavor or not!
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