Any heter to not get drunk on Purim?

Home Forums Yom Tov Purim Any heter to not get drunk on Purim?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 108 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #615090

    Joseph
    Participant

    My posek paskens in accordance with the basic normative halacha (S”A/Rema/MB) that I am strictly required al pi halacha to become intoxicated on Purim. He ruled that as a general rule we cannot rely on the other minority shittos that permit a Jew to not become shikur on Purim. (He went to Eretz Yisroel this year and is now incommunicado.)

    I am having a bit of stomach ache and don’t want to upset my stomach any further. Is there any heter on this basis to not get drunk?

    #1219924

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    From the Rishonim and Acharonim I’ve seen, it seems the vast majority do not accept ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????

    in the simple, literal sense. (This does not mean that they totally reject drinking; see their comments for their exact positions.) For instance:

    (links provided when available – not all of the sefarim are on hebrewbooks)

    Tosafos

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=11&daf=7b&format=pdf

    Rosh

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37957&st=&pgnum=474

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40708&st=&pgnum=14

    Agudah

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9770&st=&pgnum=275&hilite=

    Meiri

    Sefer Ha’eshkol

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31467&st=&pgnum=29&hilite=

    Rambam

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=3&hilchos=21&perek=2&halocha=15&hilite=

    Rokeach

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49371&st=&pgnum=113&hilite=

    Ra’aviya

    Ba’al Hamaor

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37957&st=&pgnum=513

    Sefer Hame’oros

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16144&st=&pgnum=11

    Orchos Chaim

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40307&st=&pgnum=279&hilite=

    Kol Bo

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=45043&st=&pgnum=102

    Hagahos Maimonios

    Maharil

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14721&st=&pgnum=118&hilite=

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1145&st=&pgnum=40

    Ran

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37957&st=&pgnum=513

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32293&st=&pgnum=13

    Nemukei Yosef

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16145&st=&pgnum=41

    Leket Yosher

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&st=&pgnum=155&hilite=

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&st=&pgnum=156

    Maharsha

    Beit Yosef

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2820

    Rema in Darchei Moshe, Shulchan Aruch, and 2/3 explanations in Mechir Yayin

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2821

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40161&st=&pgnum=78

    Bach

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2820

    Yam Shel Shlomo

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40932&st=&pgnum=42&hilite=

    R’ Yaakov Emden

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22619&st=&pgnum=308&hilite=

    (he specifically mentions people who are sick/weak)

    R’ Tzvi Hirsch Levin

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=6380&st=&pgnum=176&hilite=

    Levush

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9223&st=&pgnum=267

    Taz

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    Magen Avraham

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    Pri Chadash

    Chayei Adam

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9025&st=&pgnum=740

    Kitzur Shulchan Aruch

    Yad Ephraim

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    Pele Yoetz

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14116&st=&pgnum=89

    Elya Rabba

    Pri Megadim

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3200

    Mishna Berura/Beiur Halacha

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14166&st=&pgnum=323

    Aruch Hashulchan

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9102&st=&pgnum=473

    Several of the Chachmas Manoach‘s explanations

    Hagahos R’ Avraham Azulai

    Gra

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    Korban Nesanel

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37957&st=&pgnum=474

    Ba’er Heitev

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    Sha’arei Teshuva

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x3075

    #1219925

    Joseph
    Participant

    Listen, I didn’t come here for a cut and paste job of dissenting opinions or a headcount game of who can find more opinions for their favorite psak. As I said, my posek paskens strictly in accordance with Shulchan Aruch, Rama and Mishna Brura. Not only is this, getting drunk on Purim, the standard normative default halacha from Shulchan Aruch and Rama but, moreso, it is the absolute ruling of my posek. I cannot and will not chas v’shalom challenge my posek.

    I need to know if despite my obligation to get drunk if my unique circumstance may, perhaps, allow me a heter to tone down slightly the quantity so that I might not reach the halachic standard of ad dlo yoda.

    Until I can have any confidence there is such a heter I am most obliged to follow my posek’s halachic ruling.

    L’Chaim!

    #1219926

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If your posek told you that according to the ??”? and ?”? you cannot be ???? by drinking more than usual and sleeping, get a new posek who knows how to read.

    #1219927

    Joseph
    Participant

    All he told me is that I must get drunk.

    #1219928

    Joseph
    Participant

    I didn’t ask for, as I had no reason at the time, nor receive any b’dieveds.

    #1219929

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He ruled that as a general rule we cannot rely on the other minority shittos that permit a Jew to not become shikur on Purim.

    As I said, my posek paskens strictly in accordance with Shulchan Aruch, Rama and Mishna Brura.

    Anyhow, I pasken that b’sha’as had’chak, you may certainly follow the “minority” shittah of the ??”? and ?”?.

    #1219930

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Why don’t you just ask your posek? I think this is fake thread.

    #1219931

    Joseph
    Participant

    Well, then, I’ll use you as my Purim Rov!

    Freilichen Purim!!

    #1219932

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    How does your posek understand the normative psak of the Shulchan Aruch/Rema/Mishna Berura?

    The reason I gave you a list of sources was to show that it is not “other minority shitos” but in fact the vast majority of rishonim and acharonim who (to varying degrees) don’t accept ?? ??? ??? literally.

    #1219933

    theroshyeshiva
    Participant

    Either Joseph is a troll or he is completely unaware of the rema and mishna berura that he is misquoting. Normative halacha is not to get drunk. period. Normative halacha al pi the rema is to drink yoser milimudo, more than usual, which for us is very little.

    Very simple. Nothing more to say on the matter.

    #1219934

    Joseph
    Participant

    The ??????? ?????? and ??”? rule in accordance with ??? in ?????? that “???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????”.

    (??”? – to become intoxicated with wine.) The ???? ????? rules in accordance with the ??”?.

    #1219935

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    But what does Rava’s ruling mean? The Shulchan Aruch doesn’t tell you, but take a look at what he says in the Beit Yosef. I linked it above. The Rema says:

    ??”? ??”? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    The Mishna Berura says ??? ???? ????? on the shita of sleeping and in the Beiur Halacha he says ??”? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????

    So if you want to pasken in strict accordance with the Shulchan Aruch/Rema/Mishna Berura you have nothing to worry about. If your posek told you otherwise then I might have to recommend seeing DaasYochid’s earlier comment.

    #1219936

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    This is the bottom line. For some people, this will result in being ?????, and for some, in being ????.

    #1219937

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    So marbeh and mam’it are referring to sleeping?!! Obviously, the rem’a is conceding that he is offering a way out, a heter, from the chiyuv of rava to drink.

    #1219938

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Troll

    #1219939

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So marbeh and mam’it are referring to sleeping?!!

    Interesting Purim Torah! 😉

    #1219940

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to ??? ????, according to ??? ??????, the ???? of ?? ??? ??? is ??????.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41230&st=&pgnum=95&hilite=

    #1219941

    mw13
    Participant

    Joseph:

    If your Rov paskens according to Rema/M”B, he’d tell you to drink more than usual, then go to sleep.

    PAA:

    That’s quite an impressive compilation, but I’m not sure why you think that most Rishonim do not take ad di’lo yadah literally. Tosfas, Rif, Rosh, and Tor seem to take it quite literally (while factoring in the Yerushalmi that says its not davka arur haman baruch mordechai but rather the whole piyut), and the while the Ramabm does not quote ad di’lo yadah he does pasken “???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???????”, which is still pretty drunk.

    “The Shulchan Aruch doesn’t tell you, but take a look at what he says in the Beit Yosef.”

    I believe the Aruch Hashulchan points out the apparent stirah in the Beis Yosef and the Shulchan Orach. It is difficult to accept that the Beis Yosef is an elaboration of the Shulchan Oruch since they are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

    theroshyeshiva:

    “Normative halacha is not to get drunk. period.”

    The Gemara, Rashi, Rif, Rambam, Rosh, Tor, Shulchan Oruch all seem to imply that one should in fact get quite drunk. The fact there are many other poskim who argue does not remove these shittos from “normative Halacha”.

    “Normative halacha al pi the rema is to drink yoser milimudo, more than usual, which for us is very little.”

    AND THEN GO TO SLEEP. It disturbs me to no end that people only quote half of this Rema. In order to be mekayam the shita of the Rema and the Mishnah Berurah one MUST go to sleep. (I’ve seen it brought down from R’ Vozner that one must go to sleep while feeling the effects of the wine. Not that he needs my haskama, but it seems to me this is pashut pshat in the Rema).

    #1219942

    Joseph
    Participant

    mw13: The Rema/MB say ad dlo yoda l’chatchila.

    #1219943

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    mw13:

    What I was saying is that the majority of rishonim/acharonim do not accept l’halacha the literal meaning of ?? ??? ???. This can either be because they hold that based on the subsequent story with Rabbah and R’ Zeira we don’t pasken like Rava, or it could be because they have some other interpretation of ?? ??? ???. I specifically noted, that among the sources I quoted there is variation in their positions. Some of them are more pro drinking than others.

    Also, I’m not sure if we are on the same page regarding what is considered the literal meaning. I am including anything other than literally not knowing the difference between ???? ??? and ???? ????? So that includes anything to do with piyutim, stanzas, gematrias, etc.

    As for the specific sources you quote, I would add to your list; however, I dispute it as I will explain following this list:

    Ra’avan

    Rid

    Riaz

    Itur

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37641&st=&pgnum=91&hilite=

    Sefer Ha’orah

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8961&st=&pgnum=237&hilite=

    All these sources, simply quote Rava’s statement. The Shulchan Aruch likewise quotes Rava’s statement. But I don’t think that proves that they agree l’halacha with the literal meaning of ?? ??? ???. Because Rava said the same words and according to many rishonim/acharonim it wasn’t meant literally.

    Specifically when it comes to the Shulchan Aruch, I don’t see it as a stira at all. The Shulchan Aruch is meant to be a succinct summation of the halacha. So he quotes the lashon of the gemara, just like he does in many other places. He assumes that you are not just going to open a Shulchan Aruch and pasken the halacha based on a vague phrase. Obviously you would first go through the sugya, or at the very least read the Beit Yosef. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/paskening-from-the-shulchan-aruch-without-knowing-the-gemara-and-rishonim regarding this point.

    #1219944

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Lior:

    Where do either the Rema or the Mishna Berura say that?

    The Mishna Berura specifically says ??? ???? ????? referring to drinking and going to sleep.

    #1219945

    mw13
    Participant

    As PAA quoted before:

    “Rema says: ??”? ??”? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????

    The Mishna Berura says ??? ???? ????? on the shita of sleeping”

    #1219946

    BoysWork
    Participant

    Joseph, if your posek tells you that you Must get drunk, then it means that he is drunk. end of story. Does he take into account that you can chas vesholom end up in the hospital? find a new rav; this one is already at ‘ad dlo yada”

    #1219947

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    I’ve been ???? ?????? on that ??? ???? for some time. Unless he has dozens of unpublished rishonim or a different view of what ?????? means, I don’t see how he can be correct.

    Also see the ??? ??? who seems to imply that there might not be any shita that understands it ??????:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=189&st=&pgnum=26

    He is discussing whether one can exempt himself from paying for damage with the claim of ??? ?? ??”? ????? ??????. In support he quotes the Sha’arei Teshuva who quotes R’ Yaakov Emden that his father (the Chacham Tzvi) would be mekayeim it ?????? in his youth. Interesting how he didn’t simply quote all those who just quote Rava’s lashon, which would support my contention in my response to mw13. He then says that there’s no raya from the Chacham Tzvi because he was doing it as a personal chumra, ??? ?? ???? ????. If there were others who hold ???? ???? that it’s ?????? then his entire discussion of the Chacham Tzvi is pointless, and furthermore there would be no reason to assume that it was only a personal chumra.

    #1219948

    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: Many seforim and sh”ut and writings of Geonim, Rishonim and Achronim have been long lost to the ages. (Sefer burnings, church confiscations, stam lost, censors, etc.) So starting to count beans and trying to figure out a “majority” is meaningless and pointless. (Not to mention you can even miss some of what is known.) Additionally, certain poskim/Rishonim/Achronim carry more weight than others and/or have been accepted by Klal Yisroel or portions thereof over others.

    The fact of the matter is that a chiyuv to get drunk on Purim (even putting aside the question of how drunk) has long long been accepted as the normative l’chatchila default widely accepted psak halacha in Klal Yisroel. In the new age of the last decade and a bit longer there’s been a strong push against getting drunk but even looking at current, recent and not long ago history you will find contemporary and historic examples of both laymen and gedolei yisroel getting plastered on Purim as the norm.

    #1219949

    yytz
    Participant

    It is not good to have a posek who is incommunicado. He doesn’t even have a phone number or an email address? We are taught that we should acquire for ourselves a teacher. So in the meantime you need to have another rav you can ask.

    Many, many poskim say that the obligation is to drink just somewhat more than one does otherwise. The Steipler reportedly got drunk one year but never did again, because he realized it was not good for him. Just ask another Rav.

    #1219950

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Lior:

    Regarding your first paragraph, while it is possible, it is highly unlikely that there are 20 or so missing rishonim who all hold ??????. Also, if you think that majority/minority is irrelevant (since there might be other rishonim that we don’t have), why did you begin this thread by saying:

    “we cannot rely on the other minority shittos that permit a Jew to not become shikur on Purim”?

    As for your second paragraph, the term “drunk” is very vague. I don’t think there is any rishon or acharon who said not to drink at all. But there are many levels between that and ?????? ?? ???. Since I’m not sure exactly what level you are asserting was the accepted practice, I can’t really respond; all I can say is that I have heard from people that in Europe it was a minority who got drunk.

    #1219951

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is tour pisk drunk? Mine isn’t.

    #1219952

    Joseph
    Participant

    Majority/minority of published teshuvos/positions is irrelevant. Additionally, you haven’t addressed the last sentence in my first paragraph.

    For purposes of this discussion, let’s say the shittos requiring you to be drunk enough to be considered driving under the influence of alcohol (had the person c’v been driving. Remember: there’s no chiyuv to drive – you can give the shaloch manos to your neighbor; the chiyuv is to get drunk.)

    #1219953

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Majority/minority of published teshuvos/positions is irrelevant.

    So why did your posek tell you that you cannot rely on the minority shitos?

    Additionally, you haven’t addressed the last sentence in my first paragraph.

    Based on your posts you obviously feel that the Shulchan Aruch/Rema/Mishna Berura have more weight than other poskim. So what’s your ????? Just follow the Rema’s opinion upon which the Mishna Berura says ??? ???? ?????.

    For purposes of this discussion, let’s say the shittos requiring you to be drunk enough to be considered driving under the influence of alcohol

    When you say “under the influence” I assume you mean legally – there is a range which is considered “driving impaired” yet has not yet reached the legal limit. Anyway, the legal limit is .08 BAC. For an average size man that would be somewhere around 4-5 drinks. For most people that is probably ???? ??????. It is certainly enough to be ????? ??? ?????. Is it enough to mix up gematrias/stanzas/greatness of salvations etc.? I don’t know. Is it enough to be ????? ?????? ??????? No.

    #1219954

    Joseph
    Participant

    My posek didn’t invoke any points about majority/minority. That inconsequential side-point was my own commentary that could have been better worded to avoid your consistently making more out of it than it is.

    ????? ??? ?????

    ??”? – only ??”?. (Acknowledging, though, ?”? – ??? ???? ?????).

    Is it enough to mix up gematrias/stanzas/greatness of salvations etc.? I don’t know.

    IOW, the shittas may require more drinks than just DUI.

    P.S. This is “PUI”, so I’ll have to double-check this post later.

    #1219955

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Joseph, if my memory serves me right, this was a revisit, almost exactly, of a thread you started several years ago.

    Yes – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/problem-being-unable-to-consume-much-alcohol-and-cant-get-drunk

    #1219956

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Cherrybim, which shittah holds it must be wine?

    #1219957

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I heard it at various shiurim. I believe the Rambam, for one, states this.

    #1219958

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He uses the word ???, but there’s little or no reason to think it’s davka.

    I haven’t found or been shown one mekor which specifies wine as opposed to whiskey.

    BTW, I drink wine.

    #1219959

    charliehall
    Participant

    I suspect that there are some folks who are attempting to rationalize getting drunk.

    #1219960

    mw13
    Participant

    PAA:

    “I’m not sure if we are on the same page regarding what is considered the literal meaning. I am including anything other than literally not knowing the difference between ???? ??? and ???? ?????”

    That explains it. I was assuming that those who take ad di’lo yadah “literally” was everybody who hold’s Rava’s statment is li’halaha, unlike those who hold like Rabeinu Ephraim.

    “All these sources, simply quote Rava’s statement. The Shulchan Aruch likewise quotes Rava’s memrah. But I don’t think that proves that they agree l’halacha with the literal meaning of ?? ??? ???.”

    I disagree. If a Rishon or Achron says something, I think it’s fair to assume that they mean it pshuto ki’meshmo.

    “Specifically when it comes to the Shulchan Aruch, I don’t see it as a stira at all. The Shulchan Aruch is meant to be a succinct summation of the halacha. So he quotes the lashon of the gemara, just like he does in many other places.”

    If I remember correctly, the Beis Yosef holds like Rabbeinu Ephraim that Rava’s memrah is not li’halacha. So how could that be an explanation of the Shulchan Oruch, which brings down Rava’s memrah li’halacha?

    Also, I seem to remember the Aruch Hashulchan saying that it is indeed a striah.

    #1219961

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    DaasYochid:

    Rashi defines ??????? as ?????? ????.

    Several acharonim explain that the reason for this mitzva is that the Purim story came about through Achashverosh drinking wine. Thus it would make sense that the mitzva is davka wine. If you want to extend it to all alcohol, since it has the same effect of ?? ??? ???, one could then argue hat the mitzva can be fulfilled via drugs that get you to such a state. Similarly, the Seder Hayom we discussed earlier suggests that the reason for the mitzva is ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ????. So if someone injects themselves with beta-blockers, slowing down his heart and simulating death, would he be yotzei?

    That aside, R’ Menasheh Klein discusses this exact issue. In Mishneh Halachos 5:83 he writes:

    ????? ????? ????? ??”? ????? ?? ?’ ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ???? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???’ ???”? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???’ ??? ????? ??? ??? ???”? ???”? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???’ ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???’ ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??????

    ??? ????? ?? ????”? ?”? ?????? ??”? ??? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????”? ?”? ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???’ ??’ ???? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??”? ??”? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??”? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ??”? ??? ????? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????

    ????? ???? ??? ???”? ??”? ??????? ???? ?????? ??”? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??’ ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?”? ???”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???????? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??”? ?”? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??”? ????? ?”? ???? ?????? ???”? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????

    ????? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ????”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????

    #1219962

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    PAA, shkoyach.

    How davka do we need to imitate the nes? How old was the wine? Was it white or red? Dry or sweet? Which grape variety?

    Interesting p’shatim. (I still don’t see a raya from the lashon of the rishonim.)

    I heard a third p’shat, that Achasveirosh used ????? ???? and it failed, b’derech nes, with Esther.

    Anyhow, I know of big people who used whiskey or gave it out for the mitzvah, but I guess there is a hiddur in using wine.

    #1219963

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I suspect that there are some folks who are attempting to rationalize getting drunk

    I don’t need to rationalize doing a mitzvah. I was with dozens of people who drink precisely once a year, on Purim, and all of us, if not for the mitzvah, would never get drunk.

    #1219964

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    mw13:

    The way I see it there are three categories:

    1) understand Rava ?????? and accept it ?????

    2) understand Rava not ?????? and accept it ?????

    3) don’t accept Rava ?????

    (There is really another category which holds ????? ??? ????, but that can technically be consistent with all three categories.)

    Within category two there can be huge range regarding how much you have to drink. My original point in this thread was that the vast majority of rishonim/acharonim fall into categories two and three.

    I also think that when it comes to anyone who just quoted Rava’s lashon, we can’t know what there exact position is. The most we can know is that they brought down Rava’s statement ????? so they are not in category three. But we don’t know how they understood Rava’s statement. As far as I know there is not even one rishon who accepts Rava ????? and explicitly states that it’s ??????.

    Regarding the position of R’ Yosef Karo:

    I don’t think youare remembering correctly. In the Beit Yosef he quotes three positions – Tosafos (which I would put in category two), Rabbeinu Ephraim, and the Orchos Chaim (that there is no greater aveira than drunkenness). The only one of these which the Shulchan Aruch excludes is the second one. In other words, all we see from the Shulchan Aruch is that he accepts Rava’s statement as halacha, but there is no reason to assume that he doesn’t understand it like Tosafos or the Orchos Chaim.

    The Aruch Hashulchan’s whole kashya is that if R’ Karo holds like the Orchos Chaim, ??? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ??”? ?????? ???? ????? ?????

    I answered this question above by pointing out that R’ Karo took it for granted that you wouldn’t pasken just from reading the Shulchan Aruch without going through the sugya or at least reading the Beit Yosef.

    #1219965

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    PAA, shkoyach.

    Your welcome.

    How davka do we need to imitate the nes? How old was the wine? Was it white or red? Dry or sweet? Which grape variety?

    Exactly. So it would be arbitrary to extend it to whiskey but not LSD. Now it might also be arbitrary to extend it from Puglia Malvasia to Cream Red Concorde. Although I have an easier time categorizing all wine in the same category than all mind-alterers in the same category.

    Interesting p’shatim. (I still don’t see a raya from the lashon of the rishonim.)

    True, none of them explicitly say that you’re not yotzei with other forms of alcohol, but if you agree with http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/for-pulsing-flower-to-rant-about-iyun/page/2#post-523393 then you have to ask yourself why Rashi (and others) added the word ????. And the raya from the Radvaz seems pretty shtark, though that obviously doesn’t speak for the rishonim.

    I heard a third p’shat, that Achasveirosh used ????? ???? and it failed, b’derech nes, with Esther.

    Do you remember where you heard that?

    Anyhow, I know of big people who used whiskey or gave it out for the mitzvah, but I guess there is a hiddur in using wine.

    Well there are other rishonim who don’t mention wine.

    #1219966

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To defend the ???”?: the ????? ?????? is not in any way clearly against ????? (e.g. see ???),

    so the ??”? should have been more clear.

    #1219967

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you remember where you heard that?

    From a shikur last night. Nice pshat, though.

    #1219968

    apushatayid
    Participant

    There is a shulchan aruch for trolls?

    #1219969

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not ????? to the ???? from ???”?. You can be ???? ????? with ??? also. ??? ???, if the ??? doesn’t include ??? ?? ????, than if ????? you used ??? for ????? (or ?????) it’s considered ??? ?? ????.

    #1219970

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    From a shikur last night. Nice pshat, though.

    But I’m not sure it fits with Kesubos 10b where Rabban Gamliel wasn’t sure that it works.

    #1219971

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I’m not ????? to the ???? from ???”?. You can be ???? ????? with ??? also. ??? ???, if the ??? doesn’t include ??? ?? ????, than if ????? you used ??? for ????? (or ?????) it’s considered ??? ?? ????.

    But you can only use ??? if you have no ???. If they were equivalent than the neder would also forbid him from drinking kiddush wine.

    #1219972

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rabban Gamliel wasn’t sure that it works

    Maybe Achashveirosh argued.

    But you can only use ??? if you have no ???.

    Not necessarily true. Regardless, it’s at best a raya that wine is better than whiskey, but not that you’re not yotzei.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 108 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending