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We all know that saving someone’s life is perhaps the greatest mitzvah that one can do. It’s certainly the greatest mitzvah that can be done in the realm of bein adam l’chaveiro.
We also know that there is a class of wicked people that are considered “ain ma’alin.” The literal translation of that is “we do not bring them up.” The meaning of this phrase is that if he fell into a ditch or well or river and needs rescuing, we do not rescue him (even if in many cases we may not initially put him in that circumstance to begin with). Instead, we leave him to his fate.
In addition, we also know that there are punishments that can be meted out for various sins. For some, there is a punishment meted out by an earthly court, for others, the punishment is left to Heaven. Perhaps the greatest punishment that can be meted out by the Heavenly Court is the loss of one’s Olam HaBah — share in the World To Come.
One of the crimes for which one is punished with the loss on one’s share in Olam HaBah is suicide. That being the case, we must be able to say that a suicide is a bona fide rasha* — surely Heaven would only inflict its ultimate punishment against the worst of the worst.
That being said, why should one save an attempted suicide*? If people who aren’t even subject to the ultimate Heavenly punishment are considered ain ma’alin (i.e. undesirable to rescue), then why should we rescue someone who is certainly worse than that (based on the degree of punishment)?
The Wolf
* Assuming a completely mentally competent person, of course. I understand that today we generally make the assumption that most (if not all) suicides are *not* mentally competent.
what do you mean by “attempted suicide”
most “suicide attempts” are actually an effort to obtain help or let known to the world ones despondency and are not actually attempts to commit suicide.
if so that person is not necessarily an ain ma’alin
and even if you are sure that he intends to complete the act
then
either way
if it is in the moment before he has completed the act then he has not yet done anything and can still do Tsuvah and change his mind.
if he has already completed the act then your question is moot.
Wolf –
No matter what a person does, we always have an obligation to save a neshama. Look in the gemara in Makkos (end of first perek) for examples of what lengths we would go to to try to save people who are accused of even the most horrible aveiros.
And especially considering that, as you said, we Halachically assume nowadays that anyone who r”l would do such a thing was not mentally competent, there is definitely an obligation to do everything possible to keep them alive.
To emphasize what the mod said, a person is not chayiv for an aveira he unsuccesfully attempted.
I know this does not directly answer your question but it is related, and in my opinion, quite interesting. The minchas chinuch on the mitzvah of lo saamod al dam rayecha says that there is no mitzvah of lo saamod on someone committing suicide. His logic is from the gemara in sanhedrin (I forget where) that asks why do we need a passuk of lo saamod, why we don’t learn out the mitzvah of lo saamod from hashavas aveidah.( The gemara’s answer is not relevant.) In hashavas aveidah the halacha is that if someone throws away his aveidah, there is no obligation to return it. Thus, the minchas chinuch says, so too by lo saamod there is no mitzvah to save the person if he is throwing away his body. I have spoken to a few raabonim about this and no one was willing to pasken like this because it is quite radical and the lomdus is a bit sketchy (one has ownership over a basketball so he could throw it away, as opposed to his body), but I thought it was interesting enough to share with you once you’re on the topic.
You’re absolutely right. However, I would classify those people as not totally mentally competent, and subject to the exemption in my footnote.
so all those that fake suicide attempts you would classify as not totally mentally competent.
so which ones would you classify as totally mentally competent, the ones who actually intend to die?
True. But the same could be said for anyone who is in the category of “ain ma’alin.”
you skipped a crucial part of my statement, i said they had not yet done the action, which is NOT the case of an ain ma’alin
Wolf – The gemorah in kidduushin says that we dont consider thoughts to be oiver on an avireh – as if it was done, (except for avoidah zorah). Thus being the case I dont see why he is a rosha.
I do not mean to sound rude but I can’t believe someone even asked this question.
If a person was a true rasha why would they attempt or truly want to commit suicide? Which rasha has a conscience? Which Rasha hates their life to a point that they would want to end it? A rasha loves doing what they do. They love causing misery to others, that is their enjoyment and that is their whole purpose in life to hurt others and to make others miserable. So why would a rasha contemplate suicide and another person have to ponder whether or not to save them?
On the other hand, if a rasha were in a situation where their life were at risk, then you can ask the question is one obligated to save the rasha? I am no chocham but I would imagine that one would be as obligated as one would be to any other person.
Do we say ??? ????? in any situation other than when the guilty person is a threat to others? If not, there’s a clear distinction.
yswo- What’s wrong with asking the question? He didn’t say that he wouldn’t save the guy’s life, he was curious what the halachic rationale is. Lo habayshan lamed.
Reb 80,
He is asking a theoretical question. Granted that we know that he is doing it maliciously, would there be a Mitzva to save him? Your second point is, of course, true. There is a Mitzva not only to save his life, since he’s is not yet a Rasha, but to save him from commiting an act that will make him a Rasha. This is actually worse than the regular Lo Saamod because you are supposed to stop him from doing an Aveira.
Wolf – Why did you read only the first half? I wrote except for avodah zorah.
Greg,
Wolfish prefaced his question with relevant sources.
Wolf,
It might not be a correct measuring stick. Not necessarily is the Ein Maalin due to the person’s spiritual state. It might be more a matter of the benefit of the Klal.
Aries,
Chazal say, Resha’im Melei’im Charatta.
Wolf,
I’m sure you are aware that Kefira is a type of Aveira that is possible through thought, as the Gemara in Kedushin says, Shema Hirher Ba’avoda Zara. That is not the case with physical transgressions.
Then how do you explain the concept of “ain ma’alin?”
To protect others from a dangerous person.
Wolf –
I think killing oneself and killing someone else are two completely different deviant thought processes (b”h I’ve never really thought about doing either one); I don’t think a suicidal person is necessarily a danger to others. (Obviously, there are some cases where you’d be right, but I don’t think that that’s the case across the board.)
i would never commit suicide i just wouldnt be able to live with myself if i did
Wolf – No need to apologize.
There is a Jewish tradition (probably from the Gemoro) that we do not bury suicides inside the cemetery, rather just outside.
However Reb Moshe does pasken that all suicides today are considered ‘Shotim’ (not mentally retarded but mentally incapable) therefore are buried within the cemetery.
also, from my understanding, there are certain suicides which take time before the person dies – in those cases, the assumption is that the person regretted their deed and did full teshuvah.
Just a side note which is very, very important. If anyone ever says that s/he want to commit suicide or wants to end it all, C’V, the first, first thing that should be asked is: “what is your plan”. If they have one (cut themselves, jump from a high spot, etc.) take them to the nearest hospital ASAP. If they DON’T have a plan in mind take them to a family member or a COMPETENT Rav or someone in the community who knows how to deal with this kind of situation. Seek help immediately. Most people who are suicidal need help and are looking for it. They just don’t know how or whom to ask.
@Wolf: How do you bold on the CR?
“A rasha loves doing what they do. They love causing misery to others, that is their enjoyment and that is their whole purpose in life to hurt others and to make others miserable. So why would a rasha contemplate suicide and another person have to ponder whether or not to save them?”
A rasha who thinks that ending his life would cause misery to those left behind? Who hates someone enough to want to cause them the agony of the decision of whether to try to save them or not? (Suicide bombers (yemach shemo) come to mind.)
Given that the only ‘ain ma’alin’ I can think of off hand is a Meisis, it seems that the ruling is for everyone else’s benefit not his punishment.
On a completely unrelated line, the rationale could simply be that suicide is a chiyuv kares (RaMBaM Hilchos Aveilus. In general RaMBaM understands losing olam haba as kares see Hilchos Teshuva Ch. 2-3) and we are preventing him from doing the avera just like we would stop someone from eating chametz on Pesach.
WolfishMusings,
It seems that your question has been answered in pieces throughout the posts above.
Statement 1: We are obligated to try and stop a Jew from sinning.
Statement 2: An ain ma’alin who falls into a river is not committing a sin, therefore to not bring him up causes no conflict with statement 1.
Statement 3: Suicide is a grave sin.
Statement 4: See statement 1.
Do you disagree with any of this?
WolfishMusings,
I intended my previous post to be worded in a very simple style. Upon rereading it, I’m concerned that it could come across as “sharp.” It wasn’t my intention!
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