October 28, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #822773YW Moderator-80Member
Gehinnom isnt simple.
generally you are correct
it is a terrible awesome process of cleansing.
there are those that burn for eternity (hitler, bilam for example, i think korach also). this is a pure punishment.
there are many opinions among the Meforshim as to what the punishment is, but most agree that no one alive really knows.
the name gehinnom comes from the valley (ge) of Hinom in Yerushalaim where they would burn certain tamei things. there was always a fire burning there.
some say gehinnom is an intense, almost intolerable shame over your aveirahs that are visible to everyone
some say it is Hashem laughing at ones foolishness.October 30, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #822774OneOfManyParticipant
the premise of Judaism in this regard is that there is reward AND PUNISHMENT in this world and certainly in the next for ALL our actions.
there are consequences NEGATIVE and positive.
Gehinnom is a fundamental concept as is the reward in the next world
The fact that our religion comprehends positive and negative elements does not necessarily negate the fact the the ESSENTIAL premise is positive.
An example: the typical family metes out punishment and reward based on behavior. And yet, in “functional” families the general mood and mindset is positive – rewards and praise vs. threats to promote compliance. Families where obedience is ensured with an an emphasis on negative enforcement (criticism, threats, and fear) are usually less than functional. I’m not saying that this is always the case, but in my personal experience, the general trend is so.
In Judaism, there is an awareness that we will suffer consequences if we sin. Yet, to quash all positive aspects of our religion with a no-tolerance, fear-based system, seems not only counter-productive, but even against Hashem’s aims (kaviyachol). Hashem Himself says He is “????? ????? ??????????” and “?????? ?????? ???????? ??????????” – more eager and willing to reward than punish. So why shouldn’t we try to emulate Him? I mean, any policy held by Hashem has what to recommend it…October 30, 2011 2:07 am at 2:07 am #822775mustangriderMember
OneOfMany – well said!October 30, 2011 2:11 am at 2:11 am #822776OneOfManyParticipant
Thanks. 🙂October 30, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #822777600 Kilo BearMember
1) This was a wind-up thread but it sure generated interesting responses.
2) I actually think that there should be more awareness of the negative consequences of certain actions, but NOT in the sense of you are chayav this and that. Instead, it should be explained that you, as a Yid, have a tafkid in this world, and by doing (aveiro) you are just not doing what you’re here for.
There actually are some fine mussar songs, from the kind of tacky We Want You – We Want Your Tefilla (Better Shut Your Mouth if You Don’t Want Skila) to the almost frightening song by Reb Moishe Goldman AH about the boy who hit a fellow Yid and chose to come back disabled L”A rather than face Gehennom. I do think we need more psukim set to music, but psukim from the toichecho are not really meant to be sung!
3) Please block my account. I came on one last time to clear this up and to explain this thread, but I can’t justify being part of this anymore. I believe very strongly that we need something called taharas ha’am, in which we keep out and expel those who do not meet standards.
In the particular incident that was the last straw, I have hard, permanent evidence that someone should be removed from the klal regardless of his status – namely that he is a clear koifer be’ikar. It doesn’t concern me personally. I live abroad and he is not going to touch my nonexistent non-mevushal wine, but the klal needs to watch for fakers and those who perhaps came in with good intentions but can’t walk the walk.
I will close by saying that I have noticed a new phenomenon of self-hating “Orthodox” Jews. They are borderline, ostensibly MO but very far from what MO stands for, and they clearly are not happy with themselves. They take their unhappiness out on Yiddishkeit by trying to paint those who do take it seriously and do believe as fanatics. They make a spurious claim that they are the ones who are machmir on bein adam lechavairoi, but you always see them mouthing off about how, lemashal, Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin deserved what he got (chas vesholom), or about some frum person who slighted them. They always take the side of the frei or the nochri against the ben Torah, even if all they know is what they read in a biased lefty newspaper.
These sad souls unfortunately are given a platform to squawk here, and recently it has gotten out of hand. They are the second son, not the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA’s fifth son, and since I have no power to “hake es shinav,” I must leave so that I don’t waste time arguing with them.
So, goodbye once and for all. You know where Creedmoor is if you like my humor :). I don’t want to concern myself with real issues in the klal online, except as a satirist on my own blog.
And to leave on a happy note – here is my first Arba Misois Beis Din niggun. I’m not sure where the music is from but check out some Belz, Nadvorna or Satmar albums and you’ll find the right tune:
“Bo-reye arba misois byse din – hee yevooreykh es ha-chusson
Bo-reye skila vegam sreye-fo – hee yevoorech es ha-kallah!”October 31, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #822778Josh31Participant
“Arba Misois Beis Din niggun”
Executions are not something to joke or sing about.
After an execution, the entire Court must fast the remainder of the day.October 31, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #822779MindOverChatterParticipant
“Executions are not something to joke or sing about.”
I think this is the point the OP is trying to make.October 31, 2011 2:02 am at 2:02 am #822780zahavasdadParticipant
While we are reminding people about the Arba Misois. We should also remind people of Tsoras and the terrible punishment that is it.October 31, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #822781old manParticipant
“….self-hating “Orthodox” Jews….ostensibly MO….They are the second son, not the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA’s fifth son, “
Ah, but they are far better than the Ba’al Hatanya’s third son, wouldn’t you say? Those who live in glass houses need be a bit more careful….October 31, 2011 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #822782600 Kilo BearMember
1) Please block my login as I had requested.
2) Old man, thanks for the laugh. The Rebbe ZYA spoke of the fifth son, who is so far from Yiddishkeit that he does not even come to the Seder. I am contrasting that with the second son, and we all know which son that was. Certainly you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself had no children at all!
Your reference to the work of koifrim like Assaf and Friedman has no place on this board either. They’re just as busy ripping up other Admourim and roshei yeshivas as they are with Chabad.
If what those 2 koifrim wrote was true, even they admit we are talking about a case of mental illness. Given sanitation and medical care at that time, any infection could have entered anyone’s brain and caused psychiatric symptoms. We know that about a century later, a man named Theodor Herzl developed a brain infection that he got in a way that we don’t discuss on this site. The ramblings in his book are clearly the fruits of a diseased mind.
In the time of the Baal haTanya, it was possible to contract organic brain disease from infections caused by bad drinking water or raw sewage. Other delusions were caused by ergot, a fungus that grew on flour. So, even if he did have a son who lost his mind and did something crazy, it is not a reflection on anything.
And this is one more reason why I must go. The standards here have fallen greatly over the past few months. “Vehaya machanecho kodosh” is not just a song by Miami Boys Choir. It was why I continued posting here long after I gave up on all other sites, but now, the dark side has arrived here as well.
For the second time, please remove my login and mark my account blocked. I’m not a certain other poster who has a grudge and who will keep hitting the site with phoney accounts. I don’t have the time or the inclination to goof off, and I have no recourse if you do not remove my access, but I did contribute in my time and I ask that my wishes be respected.
Blocked per your request. We hope you will return for peerimNovember 1, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #822783Josh31Participant
By the end of October, bears are supposed to be hibernating.November 1, 2011 3:10 am at 3:10 am #8227842scentsParticipant
Hey, that’s not nice, your leaving us here all alone?!
I guess the coffe room is emptier in the beginning of the new zman.
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