Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?

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  • #1389241

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    DaasYochid

    Thank you. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    (Now don’t start attacking me as a repayment for my compliment, as seems to be the custom here.)

    #1389240

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    tiawd

    Some people you give a compliment and they return an insult.
    Just kidding.
    You have taken my words out of their intended context. I’m not saying you have lo leave per se. I’m saying that if the choices are to either act out or live a Torah-less lifestyle, one should instead leave. I am, however, not the who contended that there is no choice of living a Torah life there and not acting out. I quote a wise man (mysef) “But don’t stay if a requirement of living there is committing gezel against regular everyday people.”

    You, however, seem to be saying of your own accord that “the army right now is no place for a ben Torah,” and you are saying ” we can’t be part of it.”

    So then if all residents of Israel are being forced to be part of it, part of a place which is NOT for a ben Torah, should he not rather leave, then be in a situation which would undermine and ruin his Torah values and taint him beyond repair?

    #1389250

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Lets not make this a debate over the legitimacy of the Israeli government (aka “the medina”)….there are probably several dozen threads on that issue. Assuming both sides have to liver together and accept the others’ existence in the context of a democratic state with authority determined through elections while preserving individual rights to express disagreement on policy issues such as the draft, than there has to be some lines drawn or there is anarchy….for those who assert the words of a daas yachid on one side trump the rights of the other side and they must simply “submit”, the answer will be a strong, forceful and unequivocal “NO, we will not” and the State will beat the anarchists (figuratively and hopefully not literally) into submission.

    #1389257

    tiawd
    Participant

    TDH:
    I apologize for the attack. I posted before your complimentary post cleared.

    I misunderstood your point. I personally don’t believe the only choices are to be drafted into the army or to act like a hooligan (or to leave). Even those who support these protests should agree that no one has yet been forced to join the army against their will. If you don’t want to register with the army, you can always get thrown into jail coming back from a bein hazmanim trip. You don’t have to get arrested at a violent hafganah. (Although maybe the police would have an easier time if all those it recognizes as deserters all convened in one large hafganah so they can arrest them all in one place.)

    #1389285

    YFRBachur
    Participant

    It’s really simple
    If you are a part of Peleg, The Eida, Neturie Karta, parts of Brisk,Satmar – you think that the protests are the greatest Kidush Hashem possible.
    If you’re a shasnik, an agudist, degel, DL, chiloni, a goy -anything aside from our Palestinian friends – you think it’s a Great Chilul Hashem.
    You can close the thread now.

    #1389275

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    tiawd

    An ancient Indian saying. Never attack someone, because for all you know he might have sent you a compliment which you have not yet received.

    Your idea to form a communal jail chabura, to accommodate both the police AND the deserters, is nothing short of brilliant (Another compliment – beware)

    #1389299

    tiawd
    Participant

    THD

    Thanks for the compliments. I’ll try to stick to the ancient Indian proverb from now on.

    #1389300

    Health
    Participant

    YFRBachur -“If you are a part of Peleg, The Eida, Neturie Karta, parts of Brisk,Satmar – you think that the protests are the greatest Kidush Hashem possible.”

    I agree with you about Peleg, NK.
    But I’m part of the Brisk world and I never seen such Rishous in the Medina – ever before!
    In our generation, it’s PC to look Frum, but not really know what Yiddishkeit is all about!

    #1389315

    The little I know
    Participant

    Health:

    “In our generation, it’s PC to look Frum, but not really know what Yiddishkeit is all about!”

    Brilliant assessment of the current status of Yiddishkeit. As a generation, we have managed to utterly fail to build individuals to achieve their potential as עובדי ה’. We seem to do quite well at all the externals, including levush, standards of tznius, chumrah of the week, kashrus chumros unknown to our ancestors, insularity, publicity, bans, kol korehs, allowing a court of public opinion to dominate the direction of the frum leadership, etc. The simple עובד ה’ whose heart is true, but lacks the “picture perfect” image is something once cherished and a source of pride to the Gedolim of earlier generations. That same person today is derided, ignored, and considered someone unworthy of basic recognition. The follower of the Torah dictates of being a יגיע כפיך כי תאכל is shunned, despite the solid קביעת עתים לתורה and whatever other achievements he may have to his record. Yes, we are all obsessed with looking Frum. We are so busy with that that our lives are controlled by this. So sad that the real Yiddishkeit is abandoned. מי לה’ אלי?

    #1389391
    #1389395

    MTAB
    Participant

    tiawd

    “I’m not in my comfortable living room chair in America, I’m in Eretz Yisrael and every day I’m unsure of how long it will take me to get home from Yerushalayim because of the actions of a bunch of hooligans.”

    They are not hooligans. You don’t know what a hooligan is. Boys in suits sitting on the floor are not hooligans. I’ll take you to the Ukraine if you want to see hooligans. Israelis tend to forget history. If projectiles are coming out of Gaza, maybe that’s because we imposed a 10 year blockade? The starting point here is the government coming after the charedim. There’s cause and effect. The hooligan is the government.

    #1389398

    MTAB
    Participant

    Tom Dick and Harry “Burning cars of innocent random people? How does stealing from those innocent people address the aggressors of the anti Torah regime? That is simple misplaced aggression and simple gezel.”

    To save your life you can do all sorts of things. I don’t recommend burning cars. In my mind, the mistake everyone makes, including the Arabs, is underestimating the evil of the zionists. They’d be perfectly happy to slaughter a hundred thousand people. So if you start with burning cars, there’s no telling what they’d do.

    #1389401

    MTAB
    Participant

    The thief is the zionist state. They stole from Judaism, stole the language, stole the symbols, they even stole tanach as their literature even though they don’t listen to its call for teshuva. They wanted a country and every country needs language and symbols so they stole from the Orthodox. And now they won’t let the Orthodox be Orthodox.

    #1389423

    Phil
    Participant

    “If projectiles are coming out of Gaza, maybe that’s because we imposed a 10 year blockade?”

    It’s not just Israel that realizes that Hamas is a terrorist entity bent on slaughtering Jews, the US, the UK and the entire civilized world realize it also. Yet MTAB and his ilk defend them and blame Israel. I should be surprised but I’m not because they practice the very same kind of terrorism. They are nothing more than modern day biryonim who commit violence against Jews, just to make a point.

    #1389424

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Read the brief kol koreh issued earlier today about these Peleg demonstrations and posted in the YWN nes section and then carefully read the list of gadoley yisroel who signed it.

    #1389433

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    MTAB
    “The thief is the zionist state. They stole from Judaism, stole the language, stole the symbols, they even stole tanach as their literature even though they don’t listen to its call for teshuva. They wanted a country and every country needs language and symbols so they stole from the Orthodox. And now they won’t let the Orthodox be Orthodox.”

    Many people who lack intellectual honesty and the ability to really hear another opinion, would comfortably sit and dismiss your words as fanatic paranoia, or even worse, deliberate lies, but not I. I hear your heartfelt pain and I am ashamed of myself that I have become desensitized to the adulteration of Tanach and Lashon Kodesh etc.

    I could easily just continue arguing my point, and maybe even win (or maybe not), without even stopping to admit that while my logic may be logical, it has not taken into account what you are saying here, and what the Jewish heart should be pained about. Truthfully, I must therefore, in light of what you are saying here which I didn’t really think of properly until now, restart to think over the issue from scratch with bearing in mind what you are saying here, and see what conclusion I’ll come to then, and I can’t just assume that I’ll certainly be able to maintain my logical logic as I had from the beginning.

    That much intellectual honesty, I do have.

    #1389437

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    GH are you not aware that it’s a huge machlokes what are you trying to say ?!?!?

    #1389441

    MTAB
    Participant

    Phil writes “Yet MTAB and his ilk defend them and blame Israel.” I love that word ‘ilk’. Whenever I see that I realize I’m dealing with somebody who cannot discuss issues. Anybody who disagrees is just bad.

    I’m afraid this matter isn’t binary Mr. Phil. There are nuances. If u continue to think in a binary fashion jews are always good, arabs are always bad, then you’ll live forever in a state of war.

    I don’t even know what you mean by ‘defends them’ meaning hamas. Did i say they should shoot rockets? I said it’s a result of the blockade. If you push arabs too much, you’ll get violence. Jews in golus have a principle, don’t start up with the goyim.

    We have had peace with egypt and jordan for 40 years. Do they love us in those countries. Wouldn’t they love to destroy us. But you can still have peace.

    Putting a blockade because of an election result is provocation on the part of Israel. Israel does that often. If you knew anything about the real history of the state you’d know that. But you live in an echo chamber, where all you hear is your own voice and of people of your ilk.

    #1389443

    MTAB
    Participant

    “Are you really serious that anyone who disagrees with the medinah should leave Eretz Yisrael?!”

    It’s amazing to consider this. Atheists founded the country, using Jewish history and the holocaust as their cover, their progeny runs the place, and now frum Jews are supposed to leave.

    Read the shema, if you violate the commandments i will toss you out! That applies to the fry not the frum.

    #1389447

    Avi K
    Participant

    MTAB,

    1. Did you learn your hatred in the Ukraine or did you go there to be with like-minded people?
    2. FYI, the Tanach, hebrew language, etc. belong to all of Am Yisrael.
    3. The fact of the matter is that these riots are about a power struggle within the Lithuanian Hareidi community. After Rav Schach was niftar there was a dispute over his successor and Rav Shteinman won. Rav Auerbach would not accept so he started the Peleg. What is interesting is that Peleg’s grandson was Serug. The שי”ן and סמ”ך are interchangeable so perhaps this means that eventually that they will do teshuva.

    #1389459

    MTAB
    Participant

    Tom Dick n Harry Get volume III of the bio on the brikser rav, chapter The Zionist Dream and It’s Demise. Read that and see what the great gadolim like the Brisker RAv, the Chazon Ish, R’ Chaim Ozer, The Chofetz Chaim said about zionism. We have all been duped and forgotten what they warned us about.

    Read what R’ Avigdor Miller said about it. He said it is more pernicious than the haskalah. Remember that the haskalah sucked in 90% of Jewry. Zionism is coming to take the rest.

    #1389461

    MTAB
    Participant

    avi k, the tanach belongs to whoever listens to its message. If you turn it into a book of cute stories than it is not yours. Same with the land of israel.

    It was not the land that Moses had been commanded to proclaim to his people at the outset of his mission as מורשה, as the inheritance they were to preserve (Ex. 6,8). The Law, to be translated into full reality upon that soil, was to be the true מורשה, the one true, everlasting inheritance, the one true center around which the nation and its leaders were to gather as one united community. Herein lay the goal and the destiny, the character and the significance of the people.

    Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch “The Kehillah,” Collected Writings, Vol. VI, p. 62

    #1389462

    MTAB
    Participant

    Israel was not given the Law so that it might win political independence and national prosperity; rather, Israel was given political independence and national prosperity so that it might be able to observe the Law. תורה, the Law, remains the eternal, unchanging goal, the purpose of the national existence of the Jew. This purpose does not vary with the degree of independence or prosperity that the Jewish nation enjoys at any given time. Freedom makes it easier for Israel to observe the Law; prosperity enables the people of Israel to accomplish its mission more fully. Political pressure will make observance of the Law more difficult, and lack of independence will leave the fulfillment of Israel’s mission incomplete. But all of Israel’s apparent fate signifies only a greater or smaller allotment of means for accomplishing the mission assigned to it by the Law of God. Israel’s mission as such remains unchanged, and hence also remains the one unchanging bond that unites the larger Kehillath Ya’akov as a whole, as well as each small Kehillah that exists only as a daughter branch of the great, total Kehillah.

    Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch “The Kehillah,” Collected Writings, Vol. VI, pp. 64-5

    #1389472

    Tom Dick n Harry
    Participant

    MTAB
    “Read the shema, if you violate the commandments i will toss you out! That applies to the fry not the frum.”

    Are you sure about that? I don’t know if the fry are given the ‘asher bha’avoso vehochachtiv beshevet anashim uvenigai benay adam’ treatment, which is for children who still behave like children but err. Fry have distanced themselves to the point that they are like the goyim who do the expelling, not the Yidden who are expelled. FYI we are still in Galus, and maybe the suffering under the Zionist state is the final stage of our galus. If it would be Arabs who created a state there and make gezairos giyus, you wouldn’t think of demonstrating this way. As I said a bunch of posts ago, you think we can be heimish with Zionist baryonim because they’re our brothers. It seems I’m less of a Zionist than you.

    #1389473

    MTAB
    Participant

    I have also read your words in connection with the sect of the Zionists who are now powerfully banded together. I do not blush to admit that I know not how to find paths, along which to go forth, against them.

    Seeing that these men are known as evil in their localities, and have already proclaimed their purpose, to be the uprooting of the fundamentals of the faith and, for this purpose, the conquest of all places in which Jews live, will be as an aid to the fulfilment of their aim. In view of their announcement of all these things and their revelation of their plan in the newspapers, what more can we say? Are our words concerning them, likely to be believed more than the things which they openly say about themselves?

    It is hardly credible that after the revelation of the arrogance of their hearts through their own mouths there should be still found right-minded men willing to ally themselves with them. It is a cause for great astonishment throughout the whole Congregation of the Exile, that they should be given a place and a voice in affairs, and that they should find support at a time when it is known to be a public sin.
    Therefore, I find that your honour is justified in appealing to all who fear G”d, to act together and to protest bitterly and publicly, making known the things, which the Zionists have themselves made known. This will be of great advantage as this time these words come forth from a pure heart. Perhaps it will bring healing to the multitude of the House of Israel whose hearts have not yet been corrupted, and they will repent and be healed.

    Let them beware in their souls lest they join in the destruction of our religion and become a stumbling-block to the House of Israel.

    Chaim HaLevi Soloveitchik

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