Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?
Home › Forums › Eretz Yisroel › Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?
- This topic has 224 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 7 months ago by MTAB.
October 22, 2017 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1387800theemesssParticipant
This past shabbos, krias hatorah. בראשית י׳-כ״ה. ״שם האחד ׳פלג׳ כי בימיו מפלגה בארץ״October 22, 2017 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1387794JosephParticipant
ZD, you needn’t believe every piece of sheker about vacations, or anything else for that matter, just because some newspaper claimed it happened.October 22, 2017 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1387802WinnieThePoohParticipant
ZD -I have no desire to defend the Eitznikim/Peleg people, but I need to correct what you wrote. They were not arrested for not being in Yeshiva; in a random check, their names came up as not having registered for the draft, hence they were arrested as deserters. It was bein hazemanim, the yeshivas were closed. I don’t think we can begrudge a yeshiva bochur some time off (even soldiers get time off), it does not take away from the significance of their learning. Yeshiva bochurim are human, no one can expect them to be stheiging away 365 days a year, 12h a day without burning out. the point of bein hazemanim is for the bochurim to recharge so that they can focus during the upcoming zeman. They get off from Motzei Yom Kippur until Rosh CHodesh Cheshvan (by the time Sukkos is over that gives them 1 week of free time), and then no break until Purim and Rosh Chodesh Nissan. There are many bein hazemanim yeshivos were the bochurim spend their mornings learning even during vacation, they are entitled to take a day or two away. A yeshiva schedule can be pretty grueling (night seder can run until 11 PM, plenty stay in the Beis Medrash even later), and so when used correctly, bein hazemanim improves a bochur’s learning. And better off vacationing at the Dead Sea than protesting on the street. B”H the zeman starts today.October 22, 2017 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1387784
1. You are right. Chareiidi is a new religion. For one thing, full-time life-long learning was never for more than a small elite. This is the resolution of he famous disagreement between Rashbi and Rav Yismael. This is already changing because a mass of non-workers cannot be supported.
2. David HaMelech also used weapons. What do you make of Shmuel Bet 1:18? Tell me,do you do hishtadlut for other things, like parnassa?
3. One can even be motzi shem ra on a land as were the spies.
4. We do not hold by the Brisker Rav but like Rav Kook, his son and continuation Rav Tziv Yehuda and a long list of gedolim who supported the establishment of the State.
Joseph, according to what I heard Rav Chaim was referring to someone who suddenly realized that he forgot his hat. This made him so flustered that he would not have been able to daven properly.October 22, 2017 10:28 am at 10:28 am #1387847
“Who do you hold like when there’s a machlokes gedolim ? Whoever you want?!?!?!?”
The Satmarer Rebbe ZT”L said on many occasions that we have no leaders in our times whom we can follow afilu al yemin shehu smoll.
That doesn’t mean chas vesholom that we judge our Rebbees, because it really isn’t up to understand what misconception brought the Rebbee to make the error. But we may not do something which we know is ossur and for which we have no way of reconciling a psak contrary to that.October 22, 2017 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1387889hmlParticipant
If some of you had to put up with this craziness on a frequent basis, while trying to just go about your business, you would be as livid as I & thousands of others are. In Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (as usual, a hotbed of hooligan rioters), children were sent home from school early. But not every child’s mommy was home at 1:30. Some of my neighbors were at least 2 hours late home… that’s 2 hours where they weren’t learning, or being with their children, or feeding their children, or helping their wives.
This “day of Rage” called that by the protesters, just proves what we have suspected. They are no better than the PA. They hate Israel, they hate the protection they are given, they hate frum Jews who aren’t like them (don’t even get me started on how they treat Ethiopian Jews!)
Our closest friends are also Chareidi and all 3 of their sons are currently in the IDF (one is a career soldier). They refuse to go anywhere near Bet in uniform., even with their guns. But I am certain that if these Peleg thugs needed rescuing, they would expect to be saved by men like my friend’s sons.
We are sick of these morons.October 22, 2017 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1387899The little I knowParticipant
There is a video clip of Rav Shach ZT”L speaking when the Degel party was launched. He emphatically stated that אלימות is not acceptable, and that all behavior needs to be like bnei Torah. He also said openly that anyone engaging in אלימות should be reported to police. And he was addressing his own agenda for politics, clearly a “just cause” for him, yet he admonished against sinking to the level of behaving violently and offensively.
It might be a good idea to locate the clip and post it on YWN.October 22, 2017 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1387983chugibugiParticipant
Harav Shach z’l,also said that anyone not learning has absolutely no right to evade his duties of serving and helping to defend his own country,and called him a RODEFOctober 22, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1387993
Much of the debate seems to be ignoring the longer term effects of these demonstrations on the growing social divide between the Chareidi tzibur and the rest of the tzibur in EY. Perhaps they really don’t care about the price they and their families will pay for this ongoing chilul hashem.October 22, 2017 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1388040The little I knowParticipant
You correctly pointed out a social effect of this protesting. I choose to focus on another angle. I mourn the role that Torah learning should occupy for Klal Yisroel. It is being exploited and fashioned into something that it isn’t. There are so many aspects of Torah that are being not just ignored but trampled. For instance, דרכיה דרכי נועם. How about אל תעשה אותה קרדום לחפור בה? We can go on and on with specific psukim and words of Chazal that are being literally trashed. And this is being done in the name of Torah? I shudder when I think about the Mishna in Pirkei Avos (6:1) אוי להם לבריות מעלבונה של תורה.October 22, 2017 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1388087
To Little I Know…
Very well said….as long as the 95+% of the chareidi tzibur and gadolei yisroel choose to remain silent about this ongoing chilul hashem of the Peleg hoodlums, this will sadly continue and worsen. Aside from some indirect and vague comments such as those published here in the letter from Rav Kanievsky, shlita, the silence is deafening.October 22, 2017 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1388121
The problem is that we the people have been conditioned to keep our mouths shut. We have had our brains and hearts removed through a particular agenda knows as the Daas Torah agenda. There are a few people to whom we have all handed over our humanity. Just watch how anyone who doesn’t step into line is called an apikores. The Baal Hatania says that gedolay Hatora shouldn’t profess to know other subjects such as politics or business, subjects which they haven’t studied and in which they have no expertise. The reason that we respect them is because they devoted their lives to study Torah, and therefore we shouldn’t expect them to be jacks of all trades to give advice on other issues. Usually the business advice of a secular businessman will be better advice than that of a great rabbi.October 23, 2017 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1388160
שולחן ערוך חושן משפט ס, קסג סע’ א
כופין בני העיר זה את זה (אפי’ מיעוט כופין את המרובין) (רבי ירוחם נל”א ח”ו) לעשות חומה דלתים ובריח לעיר ולבנות להם בית הכנסת ולקנות ספר תורה נביאים וכתובים כדי שיקרא בהם כל מי שירצה מן הצבור:
הגה: וה”ה לכל צרכי העיר וע’ בא”ח סי’ נ”ה דין שכירות חזן לבני העיר גם סי’ נ”ג שם וכופין בני העיר זה את זה להכניס אורחים ולחלק להם צדקה וליתן בתוך כיס של צדקה (מרדכי פ”ק דב”ב ותשובת מיימוני ספר קנין סי’ נ”ט) וע”ל סי’ ד’ וסי’ ז’ בני העיר שיש להם דין עם יחיד אם יכולים לדונו ואם נקראים מוחזקין דין שכירות למניין ע’ בא”ח סוף סי’ נ”ה ועל הוצאות שהוציאו לבער מסור כל הדרים בעיר חייבים ליתן לזה (הרא”ש בתשובה כלל ו’ סי’ כ”א כ”ז וכפול לקמן סי’ שפ”ח) כל צרכי ציבור שאינן יכולין להשוות עצמן יש להושיב כל בע”ב הנותנים מס ויקבלו עליהם שכל אחד יאמר דעתו לשם שמים וילכו אחר הרוב ואם המיעוט ימאנו הרוב יכולין לכוף אותן אפילו בדיני עכו”ם ולהוציא ממון על זה והם צריכין לתת חלקם והמסרב מלומר דעתו ע”פ החרם בטילה דעתו ואזלי’ בתר רוב הנשארים האומרים דעתן (תשו’ מוהר”ם ספר קנין סי’ כ”ז והגמי”י פי”א דתפלה) וע’ בי”ד סי’ רנ”ו אימת חייב ליתן לכיס של צדקה:
Each voter (and someone who does not pay taxes has no right to vote) gives HIS opinion (not his rav’s opinion) L’SHEM SHEMAYIM ׂׂ(and not for some personal interest). Neither Rav Kook nor Rav Soloveichik would give advice on these matters. They would only set forth the alternatives and their ramifications. Rav Tzvi Yehuda would not even reveal for which party he voted and gave a beracha to any party that asked for it as he felt that each one had something to offer.October 23, 2017 7:00 am at 7:00 am #1388147
Tom Dick Harry
Its not daas torah …its the daas of ONE misguided yachid who we cannot name openly for some reason, assuming he is truly the one promoting these protests. If not, he should come out and make clear the difference between legitimate policy differences and anarchy.October 23, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1388200WinnieThePoohParticipant
The Rosh Yeshiva of Ohr Yisroel, whose shiur was interrupted the other day by the Eitznikim who apparently think that their Torah is better than his, came out with a scathing statement against their behavior, comparing them to Arab terrorists who are destroying everything kadosh. The Yated also came out against the protests.
We can’t expect the earth to open up and swallow the makers of machlokes, as it did for Korach (who by the way, was considered a great Talmid Chochom and a Gadol Hador before his desire for Kavod corrupted him) or a fire to consume the “offerings” of those who think they are aspiring for holiness but are actually defiling the Torah. But hopefully, these voices will be heard and Kvod HaTorah restored.October 23, 2017 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1388220JosephParticipant
Korach (who by the way, was considered a great Talmid Chochom and a Gadol Hador before his desire for Kavod corrupted him)
Winnie, are you implying that, today, there’s another person who is considered a great Talmid Chochom and a Gadol Hador but his desire for Kavod corrupted him? If not, why that reference?October 23, 2017 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1388301
Why are people following this individual? What happened to their sechel? But it’s this Daas Torah agenda which is keneged Hatorah, which says submit your brains to other mortals and don’t think. We all know the expression ‘I was just following orders.’October 23, 2017 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1388341
What you are really asking is there ever a time we stop following a GadolOctober 23, 2017 11:10 am at 11:10 am #1388353
I’m not asking. I’m clearly saying that we don’t follow anyone, even a gadol, to chas vesholom violate The Torah. I’m also saying that we need to have the ability to think with our own brain and heart.October 23, 2017 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1388369
People here are debating if these protests violate the torah or not and if they are Kiddish Hashem or Chilul Hashem
And what if you heart and brain says not to follow a certain Gadol , Certainly people have asked that question before and some have left yeshivas, chassidus or whatever their Kehilla was because they disagreed with the RavOctober 23, 2017 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1388420Little FroggieParticipant
I was so holding back from commenting on this issue…
My Gadol says I have a right to use the street to walk in. My Gadol says I have a right to use the Reshus Harabim to drive a car. My Gadol says עביד איביש דינא לנפשיה and if anyone is blocking my car from going rightfully… just proceed slowly… (as we pasken בר דעת הוה ליה לברוח). I’m so so disgusted with that mayhem FOR ITS SAKE taking place daily…hurting and affecting thousands of innocents… If we pasken אסור להציל עצמו בממון חבירו, how much more so here when one is making a point to someone or someones בממון חבירו and בממון הרבים. Sorry folks, Gezel Harabim is serious stuff. Dead serious.
And one more point if I may… What is there to hope for in a Bochur who is told to throw off all authority, create havoc and לאז זיך וואול גיין with abandon for a week (+) straight. Is he going to turn out to be a Ben Torah with Middos to match?October 23, 2017 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1388445PhilParticipant
Thanks, YWN, for posting R. Hoffman’s article:
The Peleg Days of Rage: A Halachic Analysis (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1388367/peleg-days-rage-halachic-analysis.html)
Despite the strident opinions of the great CR poskim such as Joseph, these protests are clearly against Halacha as well as a Chillul Hashem.October 23, 2017 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1388472Shopping613 🌠Participant
There’s a difference between protest and violence.
I think we all can agree those being violent are not making a kiddush Hashem.
Beyond that, I’m not quite sure why there are 4 pages here of back and forth.October 23, 2017 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1388577HealthParticipant
Phil -“Despite the strident opinions of the great CR poskim such as Joseph, these protests are clearly against Halacha as well as a Chillul Hashem”
I’m always Against the Medina, but the actions of these protestors are worse than the Freye Israelies!
Blocking an ambulance is Abozarayh D’Rezhicha!
Even if s/o holds Al Yomin ShuShmoel, on the leaders of Peleg, that wouldn’t Trump the three worse Aveiros!October 23, 2017 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1388600FreddyfishParticipant
A child almost ran out of oxygen. Why didn’t his foster parents send him with a backup tank?!?!?!?October 23, 2017 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1388652
So the parents were wrong. So the child is chayav misa?October 23, 2017 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1388699🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“She has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against people who are acquitted of them but even against those who were never charged. It is her modus operandi in pushing her agenda against frum Jews, who are inevitably her victims of false allegations, as anything alleged against gentiles she’s suddenly all skeptical about. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of her being raised in an MO family where Chareidim are looked upon with disdain, suspicion and much worse. She never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.”
Can’t believe I missed this earlier. You are a liar Joseph, a straight up liar. Your theory is trash and you, sir, are s very sick man, if even that.October 23, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1388709FreddyfishParticipant
Badmouthing the parents who took in someone else’s special needs child for not expecting a one hour delay on a 45 minute ride will not be tolerated – 29October 23, 2017 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1388715☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Had anyone claimed before this thread was started that the protests were a Kiddush haShem?October 23, 2017 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1388751PhilParticipant
I saw the sickening post and responded:
“Joseph is simply in denial that no Gedolei Yisroel initiated these protests. He has a habit of speaking falsehoods and putting words in other’s mouths. Falsely accusing others of anything from being a liar, heretic, sinner and evil is one of his hallmarks. He has a sordid history of making such accusations not only against individuals that he never met but against entire groups of Jews. It is his modus operandi in pushing his agenda against anyone whom he perceives as not toeing his rigid and warped view of Judaism. Unfortunately this is part of the remnants of his being raised in an intolerant and neurotic environment where the rest of the world is looked upon with suspicion, disdain and much worse. He never fully let go of these sad hashkafas.”October 23, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1388759🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Phil – thank you so much. I am very grateful for your defense. I only read the thread sporadically and didn’t recognize your kind gesture.October 24, 2017 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1388827
Why should someone expect a one hour delay because of hooligans? Not to mention the cases of people who suddenly became seriously ill. These thugs say that they will literally fight to the death rather than serve. Apparently they mean other people’s deaths as they could just cut off their fingers and be exempt. The police should disperse these demonstrations as quickly as possible and by any means necessary.October 24, 2017 7:31 am at 7:31 am #1388833
You people are such wimps. Real Americans. Soft, living in a soft country. And you project all this onto the Torah. All you really are saying is that in nice polite America Jews wouldn’t act this way. I hope they would if they had to. You don’t have a draft there. When there was a draft there was plenty of violent protesting. Now, everything is nice and polite. Well goody for you.
In Israel the rules are entirely different. The norms are different. Israel is a rough place. Blocking traffic is pretty civil for Israelis. And the government is the one starting off this battle. They have a secular military and they are telling Charedim they must hand over their children to this intense brain washing machine called the IDF. Do you understand? This isn’t about failing to register for the exemption. The exemptions are over. And people here have asked, pleaded, and politely protested. It doesn’t work. The Israeli government is like a stone. You have no idea what it’s like over here. And you sit in judgement of your brothers who are terrified. Shame on all of you for your petty little judgments. You toss around the term chillul Hashem. You don’t know what you are talking about. This is a time to stand up for your brothers and not for siding with the secular government. Do you have any other solution to this problem? No, all you have is your effeminate whining. I promise you will all be judged by Heaven for not siding with your brothers, for the loyal Jews who have no choice but to take this action. If you want to propose that the plan isn’t practical that’s another matter. But to scoff at them and call them names? You who sit in your living rooms or your computer chairs while these brave kids risk arrest. I admire them. And you? You are all mouth.October 24, 2017 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1388845
Here’s the difference between Modern Orthodoxy in America and the State of Israel. In America, the MO are insecure. They know the Charedim are frummer. I once talk a walk down Bedford Ave. in Williamsburg. I felt ashamed of myself. Everyone was so modest. They men were carrying sefarim. It was inspiring as I knew they were better than me, me who knows the lyrics to every Beatles song. Most MO, at least the ones with any intellectual honesty, feel this way. Yes, we try to cover it by ranting about the problems in the Charedi world. We take isolated incidents and talk about them forever. But just go over the RIETs at YU. They do all they can to imitate the Charedim who they know set the standard for religious idealism today. Well all they can except when it comes to Zionism and feminism.
In Israel, the Modern Orthodox, aka Dati Leumi, are arguably less frum than American MO. The teenagers in the DL school near my house wear tight, stretchy skirts that sit five inches about their knees. The goyim in Walmart are more modest than these Dati Leumi youth whose mothers are little better.
They try to make up for it with military service. That’s their thing, their idealism. I’m a good Jew, I was in the military. That’s the attitude.
For many years the DL said, leave us alone this is how we want to be. And they concocted these parallels to the armies of Joshua and Dovid ha-melech and expected us to buy into it. And the Charedim said, that’s not in my Shulchan Aruch. This is not Judaism. So you stay over there and we’ll stay over here.
But now the Israeli government, having conquered the Arabs, is coming after the Charedim with their draft into their secular brainwashing machine. And the Dati Leumi, who the Charedim always suspected of being more loyal to the secular state than to Hashem and His Torah are showing that they indeed are more loyal to the secular state. And they are confident now with regards to the Charedim. They have the secular army and police to back them up. Cut off funds. Toss the bums in jail. That’s what they are saying.
Essentially, they have sold out their brothers to the local ruler. Unlike in America where the MO generally admire the Charedim and take their lead in religious matters from them, in Israel the MO are trying to lord over the Charedim and have sided with the secular authorities to do so. I am no Novi, no prophet, but my guess is that Heaven will exact an incredible vengeance for this. Most of the final days before Moshiach have consisted of a weeding out of the disloyal. And this may be one of the final tests. You who call yourselves shomer Shabbos, let’s see what’s really in your hearts.October 24, 2017 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1388858
The protesters are also accomplishing another thing. Until now, demonstration, when conducted in a reasonable and peaceful fashion, did serve a useful purpose in getting frum voices heard in Israel. But now that they are demonstrating in this vicious way and angering everybody with it, they are putting demonstrations in such a bad light that they have totally destroyed the prospect of ever again utilizing the means of any sort of demonstration, even peaceful.October 24, 2017 7:39 am at 7:39 am #1388860Avrohom HaivriParticipant
Harav Shmuel Auerbach and a group of Rabbonim have given the directive to demonstrate as they believe this is a crucial matter. The people who only listen to them are making a Kiddush Hashem.
About blocking streets and Gezel Zman etc. Did you have the same concerns when the Belzer Chasuna or Gerrer Chasuna blocked the whole Yerushalayim ? What about Hachnosas sefer Torah which blocks streets? What about when Harav Shteinman said to protest three years ago and a half. A million people blocked Yerushalayim for a whole day ?
When it’s not your veiw it’s a Chilul Hashem and when it is your understanding it’s a Kiddush Hashem?
While Harav Auerbach and his Roshei Yeshivos are in minority they can still decide what in their veiw is something worth protesting about.October 24, 2017 8:41 am at 8:41 am #1388874
MTAB, i see that you are a baal hotza’at shem ra. In other words, you have an ownership interest in HST.
Avrohom, in the wedding cases the police and everyone else knew beforehand so they could prepare alternate routes. However, I do agree that the blockage should be kept to a minimum. Other demonstrations that block whole areas should also be dispersed forthwith.October 24, 2017 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1388889rkefratParticipant
To all those who justify blocking streets so that ambulances and others couldn’t get thru – what if it was YOUR child or spouse or parent who couldn’t make it on time during an emergency to a hospital and died as a result of this – would you still think that these protests are legitimate?October 24, 2017 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1388939
“But now the Israeli government, having conquered the Arabs, is coming after the Charedim with their draft into their secular brainwashing machine”
If that is your true belief, than we will likely have to wait for z’man moishiach to see if your relentless paranoia and sinas chinam propelled you into olam haboh….the views of a large percentage of frum yidden go counter to yours and when we look for you at the YWN booth in olam haboh, you will be nowhere to be seen. Such a dark and evil view of the medinah is worse than anything R Aurbach could possibly conjure up.October 24, 2017 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1388887Avrohom HaivriParticipant
That’s why we have Waze !! For alternative routes. Last week I drove during a demonstration with extremely limited interruptions by using Waze.
It’s in the radio and Whatssup. Everyone knows when there are going to be demonstrations. So much so that even the girls Seminaries and Schools closed early.October 24, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1389008
Thank you for your clear articulate post.
I agree that we may not judge our brothers in Israel for all the reasons you mentioned plus more. But we may judge any activity without judging the people.
I want to make 2 points.
1. What would you say if the means used to demonstrate would be burning random cars. That’s certainly gezel, right? would anything you mentioned in your argument justify that? Presumably not. Well, this what they are doing is basically the same.
2. Just imagine if there would e a mandatory draft in the USA, in which any Yeshiva bachur could be drafted, and he would immediately lose his innocence forever and never be the same. Do you think we would take the liberty to demonstrate this way? But in Israel, we are making an assumption, that the Zionist government are our brothers so we can be heimish and take liberties to act out. The fact is that from the time the state was formed it required an army which could not realistically have been a group of b’nei Torah. So, yes, they took over the land without asking the charedi population who had already been living there. But that’s a bygone and we can’t turn back the clock. Now the question remains what do you do? If you live there, you are certainly in need of army protection, and you are benefiting endlessly from the army. So you are deliberately taking benefit from people who are living in a way against The Torah. You are actually benefiting from the very actions that are against The Torah, meaning the anti Torah lifestyle that is the army. That is equivalent to supporting and condoning their actions. If you truly believe that a Jew may not live that way, then how could you be relying and receiving this benefit from them, as they are basically our shluchim in this because we need them to be doing it. It’s like the rosh yeshiva who didn’t allow yeshiva bachurim to drive but always took hitches from boys who violated the rule. That’s hypocrisy. Yes, our land was taken over by people who are living a Torah-less life, and who rely on that lifestyle for the very existence and survival of the people. So that leaves us no honest choice but to either stop benefiting from them or to leave the country. Stopping benefiting means not simply not taking money, because there’s is still the huge benefit of the military protection. So not benefiting means not taking ANY freebies, in other words doing our share in the army. OR MOVE AWAY!
But to live there and be a menace and a gazlan to the society at large?October 24, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1389048
gadolhador, the medinah is evil. you are clearly lacking in knowledge of history and dont’ realize that you simply are religious zionist. chaim brisker, the chofetz chaim, the brisker rav, the chazon ish, all opposed the state. there’s no sin in opposing a secular state. it’s amusing watching you try to use religious jargon for your put downs. i won’t get into a tit for tat. i’ll just try to stick to the issues. you should try that.October 24, 2017 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1389060
“About blocking streets and Gezel Zman etc. Did you have the same concerns when the Belzer Chasuna or Gerrer Chasuna blocked the whole Yerushalayim ? What about Hachnosas sefer Torah which blocks streets?”
These people are not deliberately trying to disturb. They are just conducting their activities for the sake of those activities, and the public is accommodating them. In a society, we all need to accommodate each other to conduct the activities that are important to each person or group. So people work together to accommodate and they plan things accordingly, each person taking every other person into account.
In these protests though, the sole intention is exactly to disturb and disrupt. It’s not a side effect which is unintended but unavoidable. It’s the purpose. That’s the means they are using to make their point. There is no request for accommodation. There is a demand for putting up with menace.
See the difference?October 24, 2017 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1389070
Tom Dick n Harry
Since when does Ben gurion and his followers take ownership of Eretz Yisroel? Is that all it takes, you declare independence, get an army, empty out 400 Arab villages and presto the land is yours?
So we have to leave? Who supported these people for the last 75 years. Who gave them dollar after dollar. Who pressured the US gov. on their behalf. And now they are turning on us and we have to leave the land?
If someone is trying to destroy what’s most important to you you probably are justified in burning cars. But I wouldn’t advise it. I’m not sure I even advise sitting in the street in suits and singing songs which is all these bochurim are doing.
i don’t know the answer. But I’m not in love with IDF as probably nearly everybody here is. Their aggressiveness gets many people killed. Nearly every war was avoidable. The State of Israel is the cause of most world anti-semitism. Before the state jews lived fairly peacefully in Arab lands. They were expelled after the state and after israel’s false flag operations there. And remember the state of Israel is the one that keeps telling people to make aliyah. They invite us. People like me were foolish enough to listen. If you are in the USA, stay there, stay in a land that respect religious freedom and doesn’t make a cult of its military.October 24, 2017 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1389076
People with regularly schedualed events get Permits so the police and locals know just to avoid those areas. An Ambulance would rarely get stuck there as it would use an alternate route. Maybe add a few mins but thats allOctober 24, 2017 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1389084
Burning cars of innocent random people? How does stealing from those innocent people address the aggressors of the anti Torah regime? That is simple misplaced aggression and simple gezel.
I am not saying the land is rightfully belonging to the baryonim. I’m saying that we need to face the matzius and govern our plans and actions accordingly. It seems that you basically agree with me, since you say that you were foolish to make aliya. I just go a step further. I say that since you can’t live there, leave. But don’t stay if a requirement of living there is committing gezel against regular everyday people.October 24, 2017 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1389182tiawdParticipant
MTAB: I’m not in my comfortable living room chair in America, I’m in Eretz Yisrael and every day I’m unsure of how long it will take me to get home from Yerushalayim because of the actions of a bunch of hooligans.
I understand the fear and panic, but that doesn’t justify this type of behavior. All of this is coming from a sense of panic that the chareidi world as we know it will come to an end. But is that an excuse to change yeshiva bochurim from bnei aliyah who can be recognized for their middos and refined behavior into people who act obnoxiously? Where does this mindset of “the end justifies the means” come from? Isn’t that the antithesis of Torah? I believe it was R’ Yisrael Salanter who said “men darf nit oiftun, men darf tun”. Our job is not to get results; that’s not in our hands. All we can do is carry out what Hashem wants from us.
I realize we live in difficult, scary times. But we have no right to do whatever seems to us most likely to get results if it is not muttar and proper behavior. At the end of the day Hashem is in charge.October 24, 2017 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1389187
I wish I would have said that!October 24, 2017 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1389221tiawdParticipant
Tom Dick n Harry: Are you really serious that anyone who disagrees with the medinah should leave Eretz Yisrael?! What’s hypocritical about living in Eretz Yisrael, under the rule of the Zionist government, and disagreeing vociferously with some of its policies? True, as the situation is now, the existence of Jewish settlement in Eretz Yisrael depends on army to defend it. But that army does not necessarily have to be against the Torah. The non-Torah lifestyle of the chilonim and their army is not what we are benefitting from; we are benefitting from the fact that there is an army bichlal. Since that army right now is no place for a ben Torah, we can’t be part of it. But it’s ridiculous to claim that our only non-hypocritical choices are to support everything the medinah stands for or leave. Why should we leave? This is our land.October 24, 2017 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1389227☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
TDH didn’t say if you don’t like the medinah, leave.
He said if the only way you can stay is by “committing gezel against regular everyday people”, then leave.
- The topic ‘Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?’ is closed to new replies.