Are all these protests in Jerusalem really a kiddush hashem?

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  • #1385661

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Right now, I raise my voice, right here in the CR and state that I unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery, for hurting others in any way. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, whether the JDL or Peleg.

    Now, are you man enough to do the same, without any equivocation, or are you just going to continue to troll?

    #1385736

    Joseph
    Participant

    Phil, do you condemn Meir Kahane for the thuggery that landed him in jail multiple times?

    #1385821

    Phil
    Participant

    “Phil, do you condemn Meir Kahane for the thuggery that landed him in jail multiple times?”

    I absolutely do, without any equivocation. Now, it’s your turn to unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery, for hurting others in any way. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, including Peleg.

    #1385833

    The little I know
    Participant

    I reject anyone calling for the closing of roads. This is not protest. This is taking violent/offensive action that damages others who are completely innocent. I unequivocally disagree with anyone who claims that this is a derech of Torah. We are taught דרכיה דרכי נועם. I understand there is a basis to protest. But this stops others from getting to work, doctors, ambulances and fire fighters. It is plainly ossur, and I do not need to ask Daas Torah such obvious things. If Rav Shmuel and his followers are angry, that is okay. But I am purely innocent and uninvolved. Why do they have the right to stop me from getting to work or to the doctor’s office? They need to find other places to protest. If their leaving the bais hamedrash for this is permissible (I’m not confident of that), then protest away. But to me מצער את הציבור is unacceptable. It is not condoned at all. Who is this Rav Karmel?

    #1385861

    Joseph
    Participant

    My position is (and has been) very clear. Civil disobedience is only okay when a) the cause being fought for is just and represents a serious failing by the authorities and b) the alternatives have been proven ineffective. What this means is that most instances of civil disobedience is wrong because they fail at least one of the points. For example BLM (failing Point “A”), Kach and JDL (both failing Point “B”). On the other hand, it is my strong belief that Peleg meets both Points “A” and “B”. Therefore they are left with no alternative but to engage in civil disobedience.

    It is also worth noting that civil disobedience is not uncommon for political and religious leaders as well as law abiding activists in the United States and other countries to engage in.

    That all being said, even when civil disobedience is justified, initiating a physical altercation with authority figures (or others) is not. That having been said, and despite the non-contextual partial clips lasting however many seconds out of a much longer interaction, I’m aware of no evidence of any protester initiating a physical altercation (where the other party hadn’t first physically engaged in with that protester or any other protester.) To summarize, if a protester had initiated such engagement, that protester (to the exclusion of the others) committed a condemnable action.

    #1386014

    Phil
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “My position is (and has been) very clear. Civil disobedience is only okay when a) the cause being fought for…”

    Well, no surprise here. It was too much to hope that just as you challenged us to, you would unambiguously condemn all violent protesters for their thuggery. Regardless of their viewpoint or affiliation, including Peleg. Instead, you posted some pseudo-legalistic megilla.

    Mods, why do you tolerate his infantile trolling? It only detracts from the CR and doesn’t benefit it in any way.

    #1386237

    Joseph
    Participant

    The only hypocrisy here are by those who condemn Peleg but refuse to condemn the civil disobedience by the Gush Katif and other Israeli settlers, Mr. Kahane and the JDL, etc. You, Phil, are not guilty of this hypocrisy as the others are. But it was worthwhile pointing out that they (not you) are condemning those they consider to be too frum for protesting while ignoring others who they philosophically are more in tune with. Hence my asking them to condemn Kahane, JDL, Kach, Avi Weiss, OO and the others who get themselves arrested for various endeavors they protest. From their expressed position they should have condemned those, but haven’t. From my consistent position, as expressed in my previous comment, I correctly and authentically speak in favor of Peleg for the aforementioned reasons.

    Where you are wrong, Phil, is in falsely insinuating any form of violence by these Bnei Torah who are simply carrying out the instructions their Gedolei HaTorah advised them. They are peaceful protesters.

    #1386257

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph. Your an outright liar saying that the protesters are carrying out what the gedolim have said. Not a single reputable gadol said a.) Spit on and push policeman.b.) cause untold bitul torah c.) Cause hezik snd gezel zman to people who you have no connection to. d.) Cause emergency vehicles from reaching thier destination on time. Causing thousands to come late to work and return from work.
    Joseph. People like you deserve to be shamed in public along with all your peers. Your a self hating jew.

    #1386519

    yerushalmi in exile
    Participant

    FYI the opinion of Rav Aurbach, is not his own, but a reflection of that of the Brisker Rav as well as Rav Shach, those who argue are reading strange understandings into the words of the (undisputed) leaders of the last generation.

    #1386469

    Joseph
    Participant

    Takes2, after expressing your apikorsus in the other thread where you disagreed with Hashem’s prescribed punishment in the Torah for the issue you brought up there, you’re now making false claims as to what occurred at the protest.

    #1386587

    The little I know
    Participant

    I continue to be puzzled by the idea espoused by some here that disrupting the lives of the innocent public is permitted if one is hot-headed enough about a just cause. I disagree with this, and consider this to be a prime example of אדם המזיק. There are more than enough ways of protesting without victimizing anyone else. You can have beef with your government, and you can protest all you want. Blocking streets is public menacing, and there is plenty in Shulchan Aruch that addresses how to deal with those who cause pain to the public.

    If every yeshiva, chassidishe rebbe, etc. can arrange for bleachers to stand and watch whatever performance it is, let them set that up in a stadium or some other open area, invite the politicians to be their spectators, and preach and chant all their messages. Let them publish whatever fliers and materials they wish. But stop damaging others who are not the targets of the rage.

    Lastly, violence is not consistent with Torah. I will never negotiate that. The disgrace this brings upon the Torah observant world is inexcusable. There are so many precedents of how to deal with these issues peacefully, that are being totally ignored. Such a shame.

    #1386623

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I am glad that Yekke made a good point about the distinction of the chilul Hashem (Every discussion needs a clear thinking yekke to cut through to the heart of the issues).
    I personally think both issues are a chilul Hashem although the first is much more minor. Try and think things fromthe perspective of a secular Israeli. Chances are they either served in the army themsleves and lost a friend or relative in the army. To hear chareidim complain that they don’t even want to register would make they blood boil. There is no mention in these protests even a hint of hakoras hatov to those that do serve in the army. If these hashkafos were done in a gathering off the streets it would cause some anger but not as much.
    The second isssue is where we have the major chilul Hashem. Can you imagine how much the hatred of chareidim this is causing to not only Peleg but all Chareidim. The only outcome will be a anti-chareidi backlash in the entire country, eventually the government and eventually less boys in Yeshiva. It is worthwhile looking through history and figuring out when protests effect positive change-what were the methods of protest and why did they work. I can not imagine how this is in any way “good for the Jews” whether you agree with them or not

    #1386631

    Yiddishe Kop
    Participant

    To everybody claiming that there is no halachik reasoning behind this, I will tell you (like many before me have said) that R’ shmuel Arbach the gadol hador called for this. If u want to talk to him about his psak go right ahead.

    When I first saw the news about these protesters and watched some clips I immediately thought of all those chareidim to be insane. But when I thought about I realized that it is a very one sided thought. Youre not thinking of the 2 bachurim that got arrested. Does it mean they have to spit at women (which I’m not sure is even true) obviously thats taking it to the extreme. But blocking the cars and buses has successfully made a huge uproar and bean a huge deal therefor the protests have bean a success IN THAT WAY. The point of the protest is to make a problem (kind of like a child throwing a temper tantrum for an hour until he gets the candy)
    Its is a whole different story whether or not this is a chilul hashem. Plz dont qoute me and then say “of coarse its a chilul hashem etc” bec thats just a waste of time.
    In my opinion, and that which should be of every frum jew in the world, being that israel should be run according to jewish law. One of the biggest reasons against thzioiny movement is the fact that it would create a secular israeli culture and cause thousands to not be frum. (thats exactly what happened, a great example being that of the spiritual exile of the Taimani the secular israeli gov. put upon them) Therefor an argument that it is creating a chilul hashem is a bad argument. If israel is accoording to halacha then chareidim wouldnt have protest or at least rarely. A jewish state not going like halacha is oxey moron-like statement. So this “chilul hashem” that is accused upon the chareidi protesters can be turned right back on israelis non halachik state.

    If you are one of the many above who are completely against these protests you are a complete apikoyres as it is according to the opinion of the gadol hador.

    #1386627

    Freddyfish
    Participant

    To yerushalmi r shach never said to protest he said don’t sign up

    #1386642

    I doubt there is ANY chance at all for the government to be run 100% according to Jewish law

    So what’s the point? It’s a chillul hashem for nothing?

    #1386644

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    65 posts later, no one has provided any direct evidence that R’ Aurbach condones, or supports having these thugs go out and disrupt the lives of yidden or engage in violence. Today, there was a report whose accuracy cannot be verified that the police were going to demand he show up for questioning but decided not to for lack of direct evidence linking him to the violence…..the definition of “gadlus” doesn’t extend to someone openly and explicitly encouraging his talmidim to engage in this kind of mindless behavior. There is big difference between opposition to the draft and promoting this kind of chillul hashem.

    #1386645

    The little I know
    Participant

    Yiddishe Kop:

    Your are terribly wrong. One does not need to side with tziyonim to find the protests disgusting. I don’t take their side, and I am not too thrilled about what happened with the giyus issue. And as many have said here, there is a right to protest. I am not against that. The violence is not just extreme, as you noted, but it is abhorrent, and antithetical for bnei Torah. But the issue here includes the damage caused to countless others who are perfectly innocent. These bochurim, who should be in the beis hamedrash, are busy stopping average people from getting to work, shopping, doctors, etc. Their passion for the subject does not excuse the damage they inflict on others. And whether I agree with Rav Shmuel Auerbach in his position is irrelevant. If he is the Gadol for which he is recognized, I cannot accept that he is in favor of the damage being done to innocents.

    #1386657

    SMFG3
    Participant

    These protests are a chilul hashem!!! Kiddush hashem is not done thru violence , gezel , and intrusion in peoples daily schedules….The jewish way is “derocheho darchei no-am” , – peaceful demonstrations to bring your points out…..
    what does the outside velt say when they see these bochurim that should be behind their gemoros , make a mahapeicho – avee nisht Tzu lernen!!!!!!

    #1386685

    The point of the protest is to make a problem (kind of like a child
    throwing a temper tantrum for an hour until he gets the candy)

    When the best comparison for the actions you support is a child
    throwing a tantrum, it might be time to rethink your position.

    #1386731

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Peleg is taking to the streets to protest the arrest of bochurim who did not register for draft deferments as required by law. They did not since they followed the psak of their Rav. Which is fine- there is a machlokes about how to handle the draft issue. Most gedolim say to register as required, get your deferrment, and leave it to the chareidi politicians and rabbanim to make sure that the legal status quo remains as is- that as long as a bochur is learning full time in a recognized yeshiva, he can get a deferment. Those who follow R’ Auerbach’s pska of not registering, not cooperating at all with the army or recognizing its authority, are doing it knowing that they risk arrest for breaking the law. The true kiddush Hashem would be if they stick to their ideals and proudly take the consequences. The protests are totally uncalled for, since it is their choices that lead to their arrest.
    When Shinui came into the government several years back, and forced thru changes to the draft, there was a huge crisis. What was the response? Tefilla rallies. Non-violent protests with government permits. Lots of davening. Within a short time, the government fell, Shinui was out, the chareidim back in and quietly behind the scenes they halted the damage of the giyus law. There is always a threat that things can revert again, and that is why we need a lot of tefilla, and smart actions- actions that do not antagonize the secular majority, that do not give fodder to the Lapids of the world who run on campaign promises to get the chareidim into the army. These protests are the surest way to gain Lapid votes and force thru further draconian giyus laws, C”vSh. And then there really will be a draft problem, not a contrived one.

    #1386736

    Actually, I think the point of protests that have a point is
    to make their point, not to cause a point, er, a problem.

    #1386738

    chardal
    Participant

    My daughter decided to walk home, since 446 is the ONLY ROAD IN AND THE ONLY ROAD OUT for thousands of residents. Not sure how it is a Kiddush Hashem that she was literally full of spit by the time she got past them. Them being “protesters” that are currently on bein hazmanim and have no place else to be. As opposed to all the people who were late to school, work, and doctors appointments.

    #1386762

    Joseph
    Participant

    Winnie, if you acknowledge and accept they’re following the instructions of their Gedolim to not register, why aren’t you able to similarly acknowledge they are also following Gedolim’s instructions to protest?

    #1386776

    bk613
    Participant

    Because Winnie, like most (rational) people refuses to believe that one of the Gedolei Hador has ordered his followers to engage in protests which are at times violent and incredibly disrespectful towards law enforcement, and disrupt the lives of millions.
    At least that’s what I assume Winnie would say.

    #1386782

    Joseph
    Participant

    bk613, putting aside your mischaracterization of the protests, if you are presented with unassailable proof that Gedolim called for these protests, what will your reaction be? Will you denounce those Gedolim shlit”a?

    #1386837

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “bk613, putting aside your mischaracterization of the protests, if you are presented with unassailable proof that Gedolim called for these protests, what will your reaction be? Will you denounce those Gedolim shlit”a?”

    that is one of those dumb “Rabbi, am I allowed to beat my wife on Shabbos?” questions

    #1386864

    Joseph
    Participant

    “that is one of those dumb “Rabbi, am I allowed to beat my wife on Shabbos?” questions”

    No, that reply is a “Those guys are too frum for me, so it can’t be true” comment.

    #1386879

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, that reply is a “Those guys are too frum for me, so it can’t be true” comment.

    The word is “fanatical”, not frum.

    #1386936

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, that’s a much better word, thank you.

    #1386947

    bk613
    Participant

    If presented with unassailable proof I would say that these people are following their daas torah. However, given that their daas torah isn’t my daas torah, and my daas torah doesn’t agree with what these people are doing I would still be critical of them.

    How did I miss characterize the protests? There are videos showing protesters spitting on/at law enforcement and engaging in violence. They are also, very obviously, obstructing the lives of millions of people.

    #1386964

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    you must be kidding. Joseph’s question is ridiculous. It isn’t because people aren’t comfortable with their level of devotion to Hashem or they just don’t want to acknowledge what the Torah asks of us? Joseph question is insinuating that there would be a rov of the status of a gadol who, with all his wisdom and siyatta dishmaya would order this type of behavior and IF such a crazy thing was true, would we follow it. OF course everyone opposed to these behaviors would do anything our gedolim say, but just like in that stupid, ‘can I beat my wife on shabbos’ question, you are pretending to be concerned about shmiras Shabbos while behaving like a menuval.

    #1386971

    Joseph
    Participant

    bk613, that’s fair enough. You’d be entitled to criticize them and they might, on the same token, criticize you for not supporting their efforts.

    The non-contextual videos of however many seconds long only shows the protesters reacting to the violence heaped upon them by the authorities — prior to any of them engaging in any altercation with anyone. The part where the uniformed officers started a fight with the peaceful protesters is omitted from the video you are presented by outlets that made editorial choices in what to inform you and what to omit.

    #1386985

    The little I know
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Blocking streets, even without spitting, is an act of aggression against the public. It is totally unacceptable, and should be judged as such by anyone with a smidgen of morals. The right to demonstrate exists, but it cannot involve the crime of being a public nuisance or causing damage to others.

    By the way, those getting arrested are probably draft dodgers themselves, and there should be an effort to increase the number of arrestees from 2 to whatever.

    #1386996

    Avi K
    Participant

    BK, I would not consider them gedolim.
    Joseph, blocking roads, burning garbage, etc. are themselves forms of violence. Attacking soldiers who are minding there own business (another one of their activities) certainly is. These hooligans should be cleared out by any means necessary. They should then be transferred to a tent city in the Negev and forgotten being that they do not want to have anything to do with the State.

    #1386997

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Yes, that’s a much better word, thank you.”

    you were thinking that supported you?

    #1387022

    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag: Yes, it supported the point I made.

    TLIK: As I explained at length a number of times in this thread, Civil Disobedience is acceptable under the circumstances.

    #1387031

    interjection
    Participant

    One of their main arguments for not joining the army is that they believe they their Torah learning does more than the army does for the safety of Eretz Yisrael. They believe that it’s the Torah learning that protects them.

    Please explain to me why, now, they need to make a physical demonstration when really Torah is the biggest protection of all.

    #1387039

    MTAB
    Participant

    this isn’t just about registration the court has ordered all charedim to be drafted
    i think overall this is a pretty peaceful protest
    nothing is getting broken

    #1387088

    MDG
    Participant

    “Civil Disobedience is ….”

    The founder of the idea civil disobedience was Henry David Thoreau. He felt that even though civil disobedience may be necessary sometimes, those who decide to rebel will still have to suffer the consequences by the authorities.

    In today’s daf, King David was taken to task for causing the death of the city of Nov, even though it was indirect. The punishment for that was that his whole family was nearly wiped out. The only saving grace was that one Cohen (Avyatar) survived so מדה כנגד מדה one of David descendants survived. I don’t expect much from the chilonim, but I expect that chareidim to be a little bit more sensitive to the needs of others.

    #1387081

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Avi K
    interjection
    Syag Lchochma
    Takes2-2tango
    Phill

    Is civil disobedience ever okay? yes or no.

    #1387106

    Kjfdhh2
    Participant

    Why do I need daas torah if I already know what the gedolim would say…

    #1387114

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oops – almost answered the question! Then I remembered being trashed last time I tried respectfully participating in one of these side bars.

    ->Just explaining so I don’t get accused for anything when I don’t show up this time to respond<-

    #1387120

    interjection
    Participant

    If the reason these boys are all engaged in these protests is because it is bein hazmanim, I have two suggestions.

    1) Either cut short bein hazmanim. Clearly the time is not being spent productively. The elementary schools have all resumed so let the older grades also keep the same schedule.

    2) Teenage boys need action and physical activity like sports. Maybe if their yeshivas actually allowed them to play soccer, they would all be on the field instead of in the streets. At least once a month there’s another mini hafgana in these neighborhoods in yerushalayim. I’ve spoken to multiple parents whose kids participate in the protests because they either “think it’s fun” or they “think it’s funny”. Of the parents I’ve proven to, their kids definitely don’t care about the cause. Maybe it’s time the Israeli yeshivas installed basketball hoops and they stopped these chillulei Hashem.

    #1387111

    interjection
    Participant

    Yitzchokm
    Is civil disobedience ever okay?

    It depends whether or not you believe in the law and in the government. If you don’t believe in a government, don’t live there. Don’t take anything including land, security forces, stipends, etc.

    If you do believe in the governing power then keep the law. If you don’t like the law, make your voice heard where it matters. Protest by government buildings, sign petitions, speak out through the media. If you blantantly don’t keep the law then you deserve to be prosecuted for your illegal actions.

    If you feel that the government is creating laws that are at risk to your life, and you believe that it is impossible to reason with the relevant authorities, then do the smart thing for your family and move somewhere where you can live in peace.

    Civil disobedience is complete selfishness and laziness. They want their voices to be heard but they don’t want to actually expend effort to properly express to their politicians why they believe what they believe and why their viewpoint should be respected. Instead they decided to punish the rest of society by disrupting decorum. The citizens deserve to have a city that is run with decorum.

    #1387180

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    interjection

    thanks for not answering the question. Yes or No?

    PS.
    EY belongs to all Jews. “if you don’t like it leave” doesnt fly here. They came first, so YOU leave.
    RE: taking from the government, if they’re being forced to pay taxes, why wouldn’t they have a right to collect?

    #1387182

    interjection
    Participant

    Civil disobedience is wrong to society and it’s wrong for the participator himself since it turns him into a bully.

    Civil disobedience is bullying. The entire goal of civil disobedience is to tantrum enough that the law enforcement runs out of energy and instead gives into the demand.

    Believing in a cause doesn’t give you the right to be a bully.

    #1387183

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Syag: Yes, it supported the point I made.

    What point we’re you trying to make with that line?

    #1387189

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    interjection

    thanks for not answering the question. Yes or No?

    I believe she answered with an emphatic “no”.

    I agree with you, yitzchokm, that “if you don’t like, don’t live there” doesn’t apply to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1387193

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Interjection, tantruming is the opposite of bullying.

    #1387197

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “interjection

    thanks for not answering the question. Yes or No?”

    Seems like civility in general is an issue for you.

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