Are mesh “tichles” tznius?

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  • #588077

    azi
    Participant

    My mother wears a mesh tichel and I would like to know what people think about it’s tznius level. Its mostly covered but can see hair color through the holes.

    #621838

    blue shirt
    Participant

    So I see you find that it’s appropriate for all of us to discuss your mother’s tznius levl. She must be thrilled.

    #621839

    tzippi
    Member

    Please take this in the spirit in which it’s intended: if you want to maintain your kibud aim, if you really need an answer to this, talk to your rebbe or rebbetzin (not 100% sure if you’re M or F) and find out how to proceed. If it is at all necessary. What we think should not impact how you think about and respect your mother.

    #621840

    mdlevine
    Member

    I do not think that you should be discussing the level of tzinus of your mother in public (even under an anonymous name).

    #621841

    lammed hey
    Member

    On a scale of one (birthday suit) to ten (burqua) I rate it a 7.3. The main judge (G-d)may have other scales and ratings may differ. 🙂

    #621842

    shindy
    Member

    It really depends on the relationship you have with your mother, but why not ask her (in a very respectful way) what she thinks about it. kids can have a good influence on their parents, I know mine have. they have respectfully encouraged me to grow, and i am very thankful to them.

    #621843

    justsomeguy
    Member

    Are you serious?? Maybe you should talk to your Dad about this egregious offense to your spiritual sensitivities and see if he can talk some sense into her.

    Regarding the “issue” itself, there is nothing you can do about it even if it was an issue. Also, this is clearly not a big deal so lay off. It’s not like your mom is parading around town in a bikini. And even then, there is not much you can do.

    #621844

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Justsomeguy, I can’t believe you would stoop to the level of mentioning “parading around town in a bikini,” R”L. This is a serious discussion, please keep your head on straight here.

    #621845

    saythatagain
    Member

    why do people ask shalios to annyomous bloggers?

    Don’t you have a Rav/Rebbitzen

    for all you know we are all abunch of crazy people.

    #621846

    intellegent
    Member

    I’m not sure about the tichel… but what kind of LANGUAGE is used here? Bikini? Birthday suit? That is very innapropriate. It leads to untzniusdig thoughts! I’m glad I do not know your real names as it does not show anything good about yourselves that you think this way!

    #621847

    tzippi
    Member

    Intellegent, I think you’re confusing this thread with another. I’m not going to reread this again but don’t rememember all your references. You may have been the first to use some indelicate language here.

    #621848

    lammed hey
    Member

    Thought b. suit was sufficently vague, sorry if it offended anyone’s sensibilities 🙁

    Also agree with MDLevine & Blue that talking about specific people, even without knowing who they are, can lead to no good.

    #621849

    Jewess
    Member

    intelligent: Bikini is not a four letter word. Neither is birthday suit. Now your comment has me thinking not tzniut thoughts too… 😉

    #621850

    tzippi
    Member

    Intellegent, my apologies – I missed that post you referred to.

    #621851

    intellegent
    Member

    Tzippi,

    I guess I shouldn’t have rementioned it. Doesn’t help matters, I guess. Especially since some people nicely mention it again :(.

    Okay everyone else. So lets drop it NOW!

    #621852

    just me
    Participant

    Azi, I was just wondering. How big of a tzadik are you that you think you should be talking to your mother about her tznius level? Do you think you are that much better than her? How is YOUR tznius level? Do you shout in the streets? Do you jump lines in stores because you are in a rush? What is your learning level, sinse you are such a tzadik? How often are you in the bais medresh? Do you pick up a sefer even bain hazmanim or just when it is in your way?

    When you will get married, your wife can wear what ever kind of a tichel you want or if you are a girl, you can wear as heavy a tichel as you want, but I think your mother’s ruchnius is NOT YOUR BUSINESS.

    Worry about your avlahs not someone elses.

    #621853

    azi
    Participant

    I am Azi, the poster of this forums question. I don’t understand how everybody got off topic. I asked a simple question about the tznius level of a mesh tichel.

    Blue Shirt, Mdlevine and others:

    You don’t know who I am or who my mother is so I don’t really understand your points. If I asked what does everybody think about Sarah Schwartz’s (fake name) mesh tichel, then maybe you would have a point.

    Just Me:

    I am very frum, I had a chavrusa everyday during Bein Hazmanim. I have a right to be concerned about the frumkeit of my family. I cant go to a stranger and tell them to do something or stop doing something because THAT would not be my business. Maybe my not throwing out my mothers mesh tichels when she is not home falls in to the category of someone who could have protested and didn’t that they are also chayiv.

    Also, I do believe that my mothers level of frumkeit is my business as it can affect my shidduchim. Don’t you understand that? I want to hide her tichels from her.

    #621854

    intellegent
    Member

    You sound like my brother who once saw me reading a goyish book (I was about age 13, he; 19) he grabbed it out of my hand, said Ich and threw it into the garbage. (It was a clean garbage can so I took it out and continued to read 🙂 ) The difference is a. I’m not his mother, and b. he barely knows what internet is and would not be busy posting threads on the internet! (He knows I have internet and did not try to disconnect the wires yet… 🙂 )

    You have to know your mother. If she is the type that would be more than happy if you approach her in a nice way then go ahead. If she would get angry that you are telling her what to do, I don’t think it’s so simple. You gotta ask a third party what to do (your local rabbi???)

    #621855

    tzippi
    Member

    Azi, I hear you, but at this point re shidduchim, it’s too late. People know your family, and a superficial change, or a change made superficially, is meaningless. Hopefully people know your mother as a baalas chesed, a baalas middos, who raised a fine young man like you.

    Also, as important as this is to you, to the point that you wonder if you should throw out your mother’s property, how consistent are you? This is a level of frumkeit but it is almost superficial. There is shemiras halashon, kashrus, so many things. Do you measure up perfectly yourself? You’re not in shidduchim yet, are you? Because part of growing up for most people is starting to cut others slack and losing some sanctimonious. You may need more time.

    #621856

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avrohom Avinu threw out his fathers property.

    #621857

    azi
    Participant

    Tzippi, I appreciate the pleasant tone of your response. I will be in shidduchim in a year or two.

    I don’t agree with your point that wanting to hide her tichels is a superficial frumkite thing. I am not a closed minded yeshiva bucher. I know everything going on in the world, I read newspapers, surf the web, go out to restaurants with friends etc… I live in a New York community that can also be concidered out of townish, and I see all types of Jews and I never judge anybody.

    What I am tying to say is that I don’t have any yeshivish shticks, I dont do things for other people or to gain apporval. However this issue is important to me as it is my own mother who I care about.

    #621858

    intellegent
    Member

    I just think to ensure you are doing the right thing, ask someone who you respect for their opinion.

    #621859

    just me
    Participant

    Azi, while you might think taking your mother’s tichel is for her own good, take a few minutes of soul searching before you do. You say that you are very frum and even had a chavrusa bein hazmanim. Well, good for you, I respect that. But did you learn anything about respecting someone else’s property? Is takeing something and hiding it considered stealing? Did you learn anything about kibud am? Do you care ONLY about your mother’s olam haba or are you thinking about your shiduchim?

    My oldest son is frumer than me. I eat chalav stam and he hasn’t sinse he was 13 (he in now married and in kollel). I told him at the time that I respected him for his decision but he better not try to change my house. Your wanting to change your mother because you are worried about what someone else will say doesn’t say much for you.

    Perhaps you should want a shiduch who will look at you and see the mentch I hope you will be and not look at small avlahs on your mother.

    #621860

    Joseph
    Participant

    just me,

    I don’t know the answer to Azi’s inquiry, but would you lecture Avrohom Avinu for stealing his fathers getchke? And what a lack of kibud av that is?

    What if C’V someones parent was hiding Chazr in the house and eating it when no one was looking? I am certain that discarding the Chazar would be a mitzvah gedolah.

    I am not extrapolating this to this situation. It may or may not be appropriate. Thats one of the reasons the Rabbonim are here for.

    #621861

    tzippi
    Member

    Re R’ Joseph (sorry but without numbered comments I’ve got to use your name) if I were convinced that Azi were an Avrohom Avinu (sorry Azi; and BTW, I’m old enough to be your mother so I’ll call you by name) that might be a different story. As I’m not I would suggest he discuss this with his rebbe, maybe first write out all his thoughts, concerns.

    For example, on one side he can have his worries for himself (shidduchim, what people will think), OTOH he can have his concerns for what obligations if any he has, maybe a column to write down his thoughts on perspective (like on a 1- 10 scale where does this fall, compared with lashon hara, bittul zeman, etc.)

    #621862

    tzippi
    Member

    One other thing: Avraham Avinu breaking the idols was an act of kana’us, not a trait we tend to think of with Avraham. I just don’t think most of us can do such kana’usdik acts on our own. Certainly not this case. (On another thread someone quoted Rav Aharon Soloveitchik’s opinions on certain genres of music. Imaging if someone decided to raid his brother’s room and throw out all the CDs based on that quote.)

    #621863

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think Azi is a modern-day Avrohom Avinu. And in the absence of concrete evidence otherwise, so should you!

    #621864

    anon for this
    Participant

    Joseph, if you believe Azi is Avrohom Avinu, what does that make his mother? Sorry, but I disagree with you.

    #621865

    azi …

    who are you to decide what is tzniyus or not? if you don’t like it, discuss it with her, your father or your rebbe.

    but don’t think about doing something so wrong and stupid, and then try to justify yourself using the postings of the people on this website

    #621866

    intellegent
    Member

    If Avraham Avinu was sort of a Ger does that mean that his parents were not really considered parents?

    Also when Pinchas killed Zimri it was an act of Kana’us and as far as I remember he did not ask Moshe Rabeinu (I think according to some, if he would have asked he would have been told no but because he got up and did it as an act of Kana’us to H-m, it was the right thing to do) so in that case, would someone in our generation be allowed to kill someone?

    I don’t think bringing A”A as an example applies here.

    #621867

    tzippi
    Member

    Don’t touch those tichels! I forgot – one can always wear a do-rag or some other lining underneath.

    #621868

    azi
    Participant

    TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY,

    I am not looking for support from the YWN commentators to rid my parents house of mesh tichels. My point here was only to gather opinions on the tznius of a mesh tichel.

    Whether I burn the tichels, similarly to how R’ Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a burned Indian haired sheitels, would be my own choice.

    I dont like that people are telling me to ask Rabbonim. I do have my Rebbeim that I speak to, but Yiddishkeit isn’t run like a Dictatorship. Cant I just do what I believe is right?

    #621869

    tzippi
    Member

    Azi, of course there will be many times in life you’ll have to make your own decisions. You will do this based on the chinuch and hashkafos you got from home, and that you imbibed from the beis medrash and responsible mentors.

    But let’s turn this around. Say your mother says, do I have to ask everyone? I researched this, there are sound halachic grounds for these snoods being acceptable, and anyway there is a minority opinion that says that covering the hair is not what is implied by “paruah” (when the sotah has her hair mussed) but that the requirement is to wear hair in a demure style.

    What will you say then?

    Also, Rav Chaim shlit”a made that decision after great research that I am sure did not involve getting the opinion of the hamon am, whether on a blog or not. He may well have taken the financial impact on the hamon am into consideration; I am not privy to how he goes about issuing a psak. But he definitely did not make an informed decision based on the random people’s opinions.

    You say “Yiddishkeit isn’t run like a Dictatorship.” With all due respect, people who think that way usually don’t have a problem with other people wearing mesh tichels.

    #621870

    feivel
    Participant

    “Yiddishkeit isn’t run like a Dictatorship”

    Yiddishkeit IS absolutely run like a dictatorship (actually a Monarchy)

    this is the rock bottom absolute Fundamental of being a Jew!!!

    Hashem is King. on Rosh Hashanah we proclaim this. the Shofar is the heralding of the coming of the King.

    the King has given us his beloved Officers to represent Him and inform us of His Will, their authority extending back in an unbroken pipeline from Har Sinai.

    you must find a Rabbi who is true to the Mesorah, and fulfill what he tells you. if you dont, then you are choosing evil and not Good. you are proclaiming yourself king in the face of the One who truly is King.

    #621871

    azi
    Participant

    Feivel,

    Your incorrect, Judaism is not a dictatorship. You obvously were brought up with an extreme hashkafa that seems to go over all too well in these days.

    Firstly, halacha is far from black and white, which I believe you understand. Secondly, life is so much more complicated than whether to make a brocha on fruit or meat first. Of course its of the upmost importance. But how many things that you do in the course of a day, have anything to do with halacha, or require you to ask a Rav? Ill bet its most very little.

    So please dont make these grand and fluffy statements about kings, and the heralding of anything, or pipelines. Its nice on paper but it doesnt really mean anything. It’s a nice mashgiach shmooz for 9th graders.

    You say in one paragraph: “the King has given us his beloved Officers to represent Him and inform us of His Will”, and continue: “you must find a Rabbi who is true to the Mesorah”. I ask you how many “officers” are there? And how many of them have a true Mesorah? I think it’s safe to say not to many.If i can quoete a YWN article: Rabbi Tendler Says Poskei Hador Not Talking Halacha, But Issuing Political Statement

    And if you respond please dont just pick on my quote of Rabbi Tendler, its one mans opinion. Please just deal with the above issues i responded to your comment about.

    #621872

    feivel
    Participant

    “So please dont make these grand and fluffy statements about kings”

    okay, not to you.

    “it’s a nice mashgiach shmooz for 9th graders.”

    thank you!

    #621873

    Zalman
    Participant

    azi,

    At first look after reading your diatribe, I was going to right you are an apikoirus and feivel should refrain from furthering any discussion with you. But upon further reelection I realized you nebech are just an uninformed am haaretz and perhaps there is still hope for your redemption.

    #621874

    azi
    Participant

    Zalman,

    Dont take away my honor of being called an apikores by such a great and worthy zadik such as your self. I also wouldnt mind if you could actually back up your statements by listing even one word that fell under a category of being apikorses.

    I’m figuring you wanted to write i”m an apikores at first because thats the rash unthoughtfull rection a true am haaretz would have. but i guess in the end you still couldnt help yourself and you wrote it anyway.

    What i imagine your opinion is, the result of not having any real understanding of what yiddishkeit is all about. you have a fuzzy idea that is the result of a shmooz you heard here and a vort you read there. so you assume that things should somehow fit into that mess you’ve created for yourself. when you see an opinion from someone who has a clear understanding it just frightens you. your scared by it. and thus the unthoughtfull reaction “APIKORES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”.

    #621875

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Zalman, do you think your language is permissible in halacha? Why not become a kanai in the ikar which is menschlachkeit.

    #621876

    just me
    Participant

    Azi, if you truly think you are like Avrahom Avinu and Rochel Imainu but don’t have to consult a rav for such a mondain thing are taking your mother’s things, I think you have a lot of maturing and learning to do. I hope you are writing this because writing on and reading this blog is amusing. I’ve heard stories from my 19 year old son about how he and his friends write letters to the editor of the Yated and Homadia. He is SO happy when he got one over on them and the letters were taken seriously.

    If this is what’s going on. You did it. We all took you seriously.

    If this isn’t the case, and you do take your mother’s property “for the sake of her nashama” (and your sheduchim prospects) just be prepared to live with the consequences. I know if my child would take my things because he thought it was right, he would wait a loooong time until he saw a penny of spending money from me.

    I’m betting this is just a put on though.

    #621877

    blue shirt
    Participant

    To add to “just me”‘s words. Azi, your leshem shamayim intentions are praiseworthy. However, if and when your mother finds out that unbeknownst to her , her tznius standards have been a topic of intense discussion on a public website, how might she feel? Imagine that you found out that hundreds (thousands?) of people you don’t know have been reading about and scrutinizing you on a website without your consent. Close this discussion for both of your sake.

    #621878

    tzippi
    Member

    Just me, I think you’re right. Add all the posts together and something doesn’t compute. In a strange way, I do feel better, even having been had.

    #621879

    Zalman (and a few others), I feel that your attacks on Azi are unjustified. He was simply asking a question: “are mesh tichles ok?” – and that is what we should be discussing.

    Perhaps it would have been better if Azi hadn’t mentioned the background of the question (ie, that it involves his mother). Just plainly asking “are mesh tichles ok?” should have been enough.

    But the way some people here are attacking Azi is completely out of line. Please stop this behavior.

    #621880

    intellegent
    Member

    Daniel_Breslauer

    You would be right based on the topic/first post from azi. But you should read all the comments and realize that he does admit that he would like to hide his mother’s tichels.

    This is probably a put on. Can’t imagine anyone contimplating such an idea would think “hay, why don’t I post it on YW and all the brilliant bloggers will tell me what they think!”. But even if it’s not true, once s/o brings up such a topic, you have to tell him what”s right. he might be giving s/o else some crazy ideas!

    #621881

    azi
    Participant

    My post was simply to see what others view of mesh tichels is.

    That everybody here turned it into something else is by no way my fault. I wasnt planning on asking anyone what I should do about it. After some peoples comments i noted what i was concidering and was not seeking anybodys approval.

    I didnt bring up anything about apikorses or the like . I was attacked in that manner. You cant blame me for defending myself.

    Please know that ths was in no way as someone suggested a joke. there are mesh tichels in my house and it bothers me when i see it. why do you assume its a joke? the claim that its not right to discuss this here is unfounded as these forums provide anonymity. why should we shy away from any topic?

    my hashkafos with regard to certain things that have nothing to do with anything in this topic means that i dont care about tznius? What are all of you talking about!? I happen to wear a black velvet yalmuka, but if you see someone wearing a knitted one does that mean he’s less concenrned with any halacha than you might be.

    People are just too excited and ready to jump on people that they forget the actuall issue they’re discussing. THAT I COULD BEGIN A POST WITH A QUESTION INVOLVED IN BEING MORE MAKPID IN TZNIUS, AND THAT IT SHOULD RESULT IN ME SOMEHOW BEING CALLED AN APIKORES, OR BEING ACCUSED OF MAKING A JOKE IS PRETTY SHOCKING.

    #621882

    just me
    Participant

    Azi, I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, but (isn’t there always a but) if you were really honest you would see that if you were really interested in an answer, this would not be the place for it. People can give an opinion but you don’t know who everyone is. You don’t know how learned people answering are although I’m sure many people are. You don’t know where people are frumkeit wise. The answer would be different if you are asking someone from Lakewood, Tush, Gateshead or Teaneck. As my father would say, if you want to ask a question about a mezuza, you don’t go to a shoesmaker. If you really wanted an answer, you wouldn’t say that you don’t have to ask a rav.

    #621883

    just me: there are plenty of ‘really’ frum people out here. Me, for example. Of course most of the more ‘frum’ people aren’t found online all that much, but well – I work in the IT branch and suppose I’ll be there for the rest of my life (though my plans were actually different).

    I don’t think Azi made any mistake at all. Well, except that he mentioned his mother (as he himself also said, it would have been better if he had never mentioned that). I don’t blame Azi for any of this. The blame lies with Zalman and a few others, who started calling Azi an ‘apikores’ etc. Some people really need to get a life.

    #621884

    Bike
    Participant

    Azi the best would be if you buy your mommy a few different beutifull tichlech and tell her to try them on n compliment her that she looks stunning maybe she will want to stay with them. You cant throw away the mesh ones stam without replacing anything!!!!!!!!!!

    #621885

    just me
    Participant

    Bike, that is the best idea anyone around here had.

    David_Breslouer, I never said people werent’ frum, I just said that the answer about what is prober is different in different communities. Ask this question in Teaneck or ask it in New Square and you know you will get different answeres. I definatally didn’t say that Teaneck isn’t frum.

    BTW, if anyone is comparing Azi (who is probably a lovely child)to Avrahom Avinu, are you saying that a mesh tichel is avorah zara?

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