December 24, 2015 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1120593
A Woman Outside Brooklyn-
There’s a difference between so/so and outright bad. I only say no after a first date if there’s nothing to talk about. That just seems to have happened to me a number of times.December 25, 2015 2:15 am at 2:15 am #1120594ExcellenceParticipant
This is a funny topic. Can I add my perutah?
Why haven’t I been successful in meeting ladies say past five years here in Sydney?
Because only ONE matchmaker has thought to ask me what I am looking for in a wife!
The other dozen just matched me what THEY thought would be suitable. I mean, if people don’t bother to ask what is important to me, of course it doesn’t work out.
However, the main matter to consider, ultimately, we have the baggage of our past life to rectify. Only they don’t teach you that in school. You waste time with computer games and tv. Then you turn 30 and wake up, the chitzonim have been dragging you back and hey! gotta fix yourself but now you are late in life and the load is heavy.
Even better, most of the known tzaddikim have passed on in tne 80s and 90s and we are an orphan generation without our grandfathers, surrounded by iphones and shmiras einayim and expected to not stumble.
And I say, it’s not ok. It’s not ok that my young generation doesn’t have the Rebbe or Rav Segal of Manchester or the Baba Sali to advise us.December 25, 2015 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1120595
You have Rav Chaim, Rav Aharon Leib, the Skulener Rebbe, Rav Shlomo Miller, etc. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that you lack world class gedolei Yisroel shlita.December 25, 2015 5:45 am at 5:45 am #1120597ExcellenceParticipant
There’s something weird about this forum. I post comments or topics and they don’t show on the forum page for a very long time. Why does the update system take so long? Ah, who cares…December 25, 2015 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1120598flatbusherParticipant
For those of you who say they are in shidduchim, first let me say that just about all the ones we have been in touch with do not call and do not even respond to emails. I have daughters in their 20s in shidduchim, and beli ayin harah they are good girls with good professions. They have not had a dates in months, not even a call. They are not being picky or have some of the demands you post. It saddens me that we have to rely on shadchanim. How many does one need to work with to have at least one take any interest?December 25, 2015 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1120599
I’m sorry for your difficult experience. It is unfortunately shared by most of us girls in shidduchim.December 25, 2015 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1120600offbeat2Member
@excellence- having the same experience. maybe the moderators are on vacation:)
regarding relying on shadchanim-there is a certain monopoly based on the system. Dating sites or informal shadchanim (based on your types) can help solve that issue.December 25, 2015 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1120601
Reinstatement of polygamy on a limited basis, where individuals would need a heter approving their ability to properly handle a second wife, would resolve the shiddduch crisis.December 26, 2015 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1120602
Joseph: I sincerely hope you’re joking. Besides for the inherent problems with polygamy for Jewish men, women and children, it’s illegal in most of the Western world. And we’re not even welcome in Yemen…
You lose your limited credibility here when you advocate for such radical ideas.
But then again, you are Joseph….December 26, 2015 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1120603WolfishMusingsParticipant
I have daughters in their 20s in shidduchim, and beli ayin harah they are good girls with good professions. They have not had a dates in months, not even a call. They are not being picky or have some of the demands you post.
I feel badly for your plight, but perhaps this is a sign that your daughters should take more active steps to find husbands than just sitting by the phone waiting.
The WolfDecember 26, 2015 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1120604
Polygamy may not be illegal in a couple of years. And it’s not radical. For many people it is an ancient tradition.December 26, 2015 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1120605
RY: those many people are not the ones we are discussing with the shidduch crisis – and it’s definitely radical in these circles.
I believe marrying ones’ pet will become legal before polygamy, but so far it’s illegal and irrelevant.December 27, 2015 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1120606CTLAWYERParticipant
I have just started reading this thread, as I got a phone call from a schadchan 5 minutes ago. He said to me that he just heard I have a daughter turning 19 soon and she must be desperate for a husband.
After I finished laughing, I asked about how he got my private phone number and his background. He said he got the number from my eldest daughter-in-law. She is a cousin and he was trolling relatives for referrals. I was told that because we live out of town he will only charge $500 for an initial meeting and then negotiate a set fee for a shidduch.
I replied that I am a successful attorney and that initial consultations are always free, then if the potential client is interested, we discuss rates and sign an ‘engagement letter.’
There was dead silence and then I hears a dial tone.
There is no reason to pay a schadchan for an initial consultation. That meeting is you giving the shadchan your time at no cost to pitch his/her services.
BTW>>>My not yet 19 year old is in no hurry to find a chason. This family sends girls to get a college and professional degree after the post high school seminary experience. Her 24 year old sister is finishing law school this month, she and her chuson taking the February Bar exams, chasunah in early April and I”H joining my firm in June.
Two sons married, eldest daughter married, middle daughter engaged. Not a single one used a professional shadchan. The old boys and old girls yeshiva/seminary/summer camp network did its job well.
BTW>>>My parents met working at nearby summer camps in 1930. I met my wife in 1970 while we were working at summer camps and were fixed up by the director and his wife.December 27, 2015 12:12 am at 12:12 am #1120607
Mammele, I assume you mean “companion of different species”.December 27, 2015 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1120608
CTLAWYER, unbelievable story. That shadchan should have been the one to hear the dial tone.December 27, 2015 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1120609HealthParticipant
Joe -“Reinstatement of polygamy on a limited basis,”
Why this? My solution is much better! See the topic of “Who wants to be a Tzaddikes like Rus.”December 27, 2015 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1120610CTLAWYERParticipant
I didn’t hang up because he is the relative of my daughter in law. Not worth causing my son a problem.
I have told the story before of how a High School rebbi called me to set me up with a girl who would be in my town for one day only–for a bris. When I finished laughing, I told my wife that my rebbi wanted to fix me up with her sister.
He didn’t know that I had married and had a son. It was more than 10 years since I’d seen him, he only knew that I was the only male he was acquainted with from my town and that this young lady was going to be there for a simcha–so he took a shot.
About 6 months later, I fixed my sister in law up with a former Yeshiva roommate of mine (now a CPA). They are B”H married more than 35 years with children and grandchildren.December 27, 2015 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1120611
Mammele: Polygamy had been practiced by Sefardim until recent times and there are Teimanim even today with multiple wives. Nothing radical at all.
And the Mormon fundamentalists and some African immigrants practice it in America today. It isn’t illegal unless one registers more than one marriage license with the government. Living with more than one woman isn’t inherently illegal. The authorities tolerate the fundamental Mormons.December 27, 2015 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1120612thefirstjewishjewMemberDecember 27, 2015 2:33 am at 2:33 am #1120613
Mammele, RY23 is also correct that the technical prohibition of polygamy is on its last legal legs in the United States. A federal court in Utah has overturned the states law against it less than two years ago. Though, as noted, it has consciously been unenforced for over half a century, anyways, except in situations where it involved an underage party.December 27, 2015 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1120615WolfishMusingsParticipant
A federal court in Utah has overturned the states law against it less than two years ago.
Actually, that’s not entirely true.
The courts did strike down the provisions regarding cohabitation with more than one “wife” at a time. However, the courts also upheld the restrictions on actually marrying more than one person at a time. IOW, you can live with as many women (or men) as you like, but you can only be legally married to one. If you marry another before the first marriage is dissolved, you can still find yourself charged with a crime.
The WolfDecember 27, 2015 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1120616
I suggested exactly that, above. One legal marriage registered with the state, and no more. The Utah case involved a gentleman religiously married to multiple wives but only the first was legally married to him under State law.December 27, 2015 5:39 am at 5:39 am #1120617
Joseph: I don’t know why we’re even discussing this, as this is really a non issue, but I’ll humor you, so let’s see:
1) any unmarried woman here above 26 or the parent of one, please give us your vote: If polygamy were mainstream, would you consider becoming (or encourage your daughter to become) someone’s second wife? Yes or No. Please specify if you’re the parent.
2) if you are a married woman, would you allow your husband to marry another woman if polygamy were mainstream? Please vote Yes or No.
Thanks everyone. Please no trolling.December 27, 2015 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1120618HealthParticipant
Mammele – He’s playing with you. But why don’t older girls consider 10 or 20 years older than them?!?December 27, 2015 6:34 am at 6:34 am #1120619
Mammele: Please note, again, my initial comment on this topic above. I suggested this mechanism be strictly limited and restricted. I did not suggest it become a widespread practice. Nor would I anticipate the vast majority of folks to consider this option to be their calling or practice. I would, indeed, very much expect most people by far to be uninterested and consider this not their thing. So a survey you conduct resulting in such results would in fact fit into my expectations.December 27, 2015 6:39 am at 6:39 am #1120620
But why don’t older girls consider 10 or 20 years older than them?!?
??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
That’s why.December 27, 2015 7:04 am at 7:04 am #1120622
Mammele: That all being said, I’m confident that there would be some interest and uptake in the real world on this idea from both genders. Indeed, one longtime poster on this very forum, who happened to be an older single girl, had more than once expressed support for this idea.
[Mods, I removed the reference to any individual poster.]December 27, 2015 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1120623
Joseph: I’m sorry but this makes no sense. If polygamy will happen few and far between as you say, it can not solve the shidduch crisis in any case, so why bother. And even if you say we just need 5% – which is a pretty decent number – to go ahead with it (assuming these people are perfectly screened candidates and are ready, able and willing) the children born from such marriages will most likely still feel like second class kids and will not be happy about it. We can’t ask them to vote…December 27, 2015 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1120624December 27, 2015 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1120625TheGoqParticipant
Just now reading this thread, technical i think we must have dated because i have been on dates where the girl made up her mind right away and checked out mentally and just went through the motions the rest of the date.December 27, 2015 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #1120626
Mammele: What’s your concern about the math? Suppose today the age gap (or whatever the multitudes of causes) results in 5% of girls being unable to get married due to their being a shortage of unmarried men, if the rabbonim permit 5% of girls to be a second wife, that would greatly alleviate the problem of those girls who otherwise were r”l doomed to have been unable to find someone to marry. If the percentage is 10%, then 10% could be allowed to become a sister-wife. On either of those two examples it would mean 95% or 90% of the people would still have “traditional” one-husband/one-wife relationships.
Now I’m not suggesting that this is a quick-fix that will overnight resolve the shiddduch crisis. Or that, even, the percentages of plural wives families will automatically equal the exact percentages of girls who are short a husband. But certainly it will go part of the way, or hopefully even a long way, towards helping resolve the shiddduch crisis we are experiencing regarding an imbalance of boys and girls in the market. Even a partial fix is better than none.
And as stated, this solution will need to be highly regulated by the rabbonim shlita to ensure its success both in terms of who is capable of participating in it as well as to regulate its occurrence/frequency remain in hand. But as I stated, I think there will be more of an issue of finding enough people willing and capable of participating (even though only a small percentage is needed in the first place) than a problem of having too many willing participants. But even a smaller than needed participation rate will go a long way in helping resolve the crisis.
And, again, I stress I’m not advocating a hefker velt in this or that this program be started by any Yankel or Mirel on their own. It first needs the haskama of gedolei yisroel before it can get off the ground (no one has the right to do it on their own beforehand). Even the NASI program of encouraging close in age shidduchim got the signed haskama of gedolei yisroel first. As noted the Sefardim have been doing this for centuries until very recent times and some Teimanim still have plural wives even today. I don’t think any of the children will be discriminated or feel second-class or even feel differently than other children. Children of divorced families manage in a frum world of mostly married parents.
And there have been rabbonim in the past who suggested the possibility of the current rabbonim ending the cherem is a real and serious possibility if the circumstances were right. I believe the Gra is one of the rabbonim and I know that on one of his easily available Torah tapes that Rav Avigdor Miller suggested the rabbonim could do so.December 27, 2015 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1120627
Polygamy shouldn’t be mainstream. But the system should allow it as an exception, not a rule.December 27, 2015 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1120628
Just now reading this thread, technical i think we must have dated because i have been on dates where the girl made up her mind right away and checked out mentally and just went through the motions the rest of the date.
I think she’s far from the only one to do that.
I think that by default, there should almost always be a second date (at least) because one can’t properly rule someone out after one, as much as some think they can.December 27, 2015 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1120629TheGoqParticipant
But if a person is going to make a snap judgement based on looks b4 getting to know someone a little why not just provide pictures and let them make that decision b4 the date is arranged and cause hurt feelings.December 27, 2015 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1120630writersoulMember
People have a really rosy idea of an ideal polygamy. I cannot think of any purely happy polygamous marriages in Tanach which didn’t contain some kind of angst due to the fact that it was polygamous (Avraham, Sarah and Hagar; Yaakov, Rachel, Leah, Bilha, Zilpa; Shlomo and his thousand wives; Elkana, Chana and Penina; the Pilegesh beGivah; etc.). The only person who is legitimately told that he can marry multiple wives- with strict regulations- is a melech Yisrael, which is possibly why Dovid’s marriage problems did not relate to his polygamy, IIRC. The prototypical marriage mentioned in halacha and in Tanach is between one man and one woman. Just because something is muttar doesn’t mean that it is a good idea. Besides, IIRC (and I could be wrong) in the time of R Gershom, the issue wasn’t with actual polygamy but with men not needing to divorce their wives in order to remarry. That’s not something we want happening again (even if we do have the heter me’ah rabbanim…).
Hey, you know what? Heter me’ah rabbanim! Put your theory to the test. Find a couple who would want a “sister wife,” find an older single who would want to marry the guy, and find 100 rabbis to sign agreement and you don’t need a whole big patchke of rescinding the whole thing.December 27, 2015 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1120631
Also, I don’t think heter meah rabbonim would work. The man needs to deposit a get in a bais din for her to take whenever she wants so I don’t think they’ll give a better for someone who wants to remain married.December 27, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1120632flatbusherParticipant
Wolf, they are not sitting and waiting but also don’t want to start with web sites. I have asked them and have not gotten an answer why their friends from both HS and seminary who are married have no shidduch suggestions from them. It’s puzzling.December 27, 2015 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1120633writersoulMember
DY- just in case… and it’s fun, instead of the two papers I have to be writing 🙂
As far as the heter meah rabbanim goes- that’s the point. In theory, all the heter meah rabbanim is is overriding the cherem. They can do that for any reason. The point here would be convincing these 100 rabbis in a variety of countries that polygamy is a good idea. It’s a test case.December 27, 2015 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1120634
Actually, the only time I ever tuned out and went through the motions after 10 minutes was when the boy did it first (i.e. answered every single conversation-starter with “uh huh” and “I hear”).December 27, 2015 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1120635golferParticipant
Am I to assume that all you proponents of polygamy have not considered (or are conveniently overlooking) the fact that a tzara is called a tzara?December 27, 2015 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1120636
DY – I don’t appreciate the hint that I have tuned out after 10 minutes, since all I said is that I can tell it’s not a shidduch after 10 minutes. I do my best to try to keep the conversation going- usually with no reciprocation from the other end.
And I have a feeling that The Goq and I could verify pretty easily that I have never dated him.December 27, 2015 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1120637
At times when polygamy was mainstream polygamists knew that a tzara was called a tzara.December 27, 2015 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1120638
Writersoul, I don’t think the heter meah rabbanim is overriding the cherem, it’s working within it. Using it the way you suggest would be overriding it, and that’s not what the heter meah rabbonim is for.
It would fail not as a test for whether these hundred rabbonim are against polygamy, rather that it’s not within their power to even decide.December 27, 2015 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #1120639
Technical20, you’re right, I have no idea how you actually act on a date, I was just responding to Goq’s humorous suggestion that the two of you met.
The part I was serious about is not giving someone a second date. You are seriously harming your chances to quickly meet the right one by feeling confident that you can be sure someone is not for you after one date.December 28, 2015 12:44 am at 12:44 am #1120640
I disagree. Do you know how much effort it takes for me to get ready for a date? For a guy, yes, you do have to rent a car and figure out where to go; I’m not minimizing the difficulty of that. But for a me, my family has to clean up the house, my father needs to miss a good part of his nightly shiur, I need to do my hair and makeup and spend 2-3+ hours of my night. That’s also ignoring the emotional stress and nerves that are involved. If I did it once and there is no legitimate chance of the shidduch working out, what is the tachlis in going out a second time?
By the way, with every boy that I said no after one date, the boy said no, as well. The only exception was one boy who was 9 years older than me (I had literally just turned 20), whom I was reluctant to go out with in the first place. People told me to go out and see how it went. When I went out, I was very uncomfortable with the age difference, and I said no.
I don’t think I’m unreasonable with saying no. I’m generally a very thought-out person, and I don’t tend to be impulsive. Sometimes, there is just no shaichus in a date- which the shadchanim themselves have admitted in my case.December 28, 2015 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1120641
Also, by the way, I have 2 much older singles who are very close to me. They would take great offense at the suggestion that polygamy would help with the shidduch crisis, and would much prefer to remain single their whole lives rather than marry a man who has another wife.December 28, 2015 1:15 am at 1:15 am #1120642
Do you know how much effort it takes for me to get ready for a date? For a guy, yes, you do have to rent a car and figure out where to go; I’m not minimizing the difficulty of that. But for a me, my family has to clean up the house, my father needs to miss a good part of his nightly shiur, I need to do my hair and makeup and spend 2-3+ hours of my night.
That’s not a reason to say no, that’s a bias. You implied earlier (in a post commiserating with Flatbusher) that you don’t have as many opportunities to go out as you’d like. So when you do, don’t let the difficulty get in the way of giving it every possible chance.
If I did it once and there is no legitimate chance of the shidduch working out, what is the tachlis in going out a second time?
Agreed. I’m questioning someone’s ability to properly definitively assess that after one date.
I’ve seen more than one occasion where that assessment turned out to be wrong.December 28, 2015 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1120643
“That’s not a reason to say no, that’s a bias. You implied earlier (in a post commiserating with Flatbusher) that you don’t have as many opportunities to go out as you’d like.”
I implied no such thing… I actually have more bad dates than I’d like. I go out a lot (for a girl). I’m getting worn out.
“I’ve seen more than one occasion where that assessment turned out to be wrong.”
Everyone uses that as a reason that shidduchim should just go on and on and on- because it “might” work out. Trust me, I’ve had boys who I went out with as long as I could make it work. As I said, I’ve had boys with whom the first date was so-so, but the second was much better. My point was that there’s a difference between so-so and outright bad, “we had nothing to talk about and sat there in awkward silence for two hours.”
And you ignored my point that every time I said no after one date, the boy did, as well.December 28, 2015 3:21 am at 3:21 am #1120644
Everyone uses that as a reason that shidduchim should just go on and on and on- because it “might” work out.
Maybe they’re right. Anyhow, I didn’t take it that far, I only discussed a second date.
“we had nothing to talk about and sat there in awkward silence for two hours.”
Some of those have also worked out.
And you ignored my point that every time I said no after one date, the boy did, as well.
So, he also made a mistake to say no after one date.December 28, 2015 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1120645
I guess you’ll stick with your opinion, and I’ll stick with mine. No point belaboring the matter anymore.
Just for clarification- you firmly believe that there’s no such thing as two people who meet each other for 2 hours and know that they are not meant to marry each other?
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