December 28, 2015 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1120646
I wouldn’t say there’s absolutely no such thing, but based on not having what to talk about, or not being comfortable, I think it’s a mistake to not give it another chance.December 28, 2015 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1120647
I also wanted to comment on the original poster.
“Without a doubt there is certainly shortage of boys on the market. However in many instances I find the girls being overly demanding/choosy in what they are “looking for”. Such as “I only want someone with a plan” why in the world would a 24 year old learning boy need any more of a “plan” other then to learn and trust in hashem??”
There is an old joke about a girl’s father who meets his future son-in-law. He asks the boy how he plans to provide for his family. The boy answer’s “G-d will provide.” He asks how he plans to pay rent, bills, etc. and each time the boy answers “G-d will provide.” The father comes home and tells his wife “I’m glad that this boy thinks that I’m G-d.”
This story is apocryphal, and the point is that yes, G-d does provide, but money doesn’t usually rain down from the heavens. More often than not, in these situations, financial support is coming solely from the girl’s parents. Unless the parents are wealthy or have an outside source of income, this way of life is usually unsustainable in the long term. Therefore, many girls, out of a sense of RESPONSIBILITY and not wanting to burden their parents, want a boy who has some sort of plan. If a boy is in shidduchim, he should have some idea of how he is going to make it financially, without relying on his in-laws or his wife indefinitely.
‘And those who want working boys complain that he “isn’t serious enough about his learning”. Well yeah that is why he isn’t in Yeshiva and he his working with a “plan” as you wanted.’
Are “working” and “serious about learning” mutually exclusive? My father would be quite offended. There is a chiyuv on all men to be “koveia itim laTorah.” The mefarshim say that this means “asai Torascha keva u’melachtecha arai” – meaning, Torah should be the ikar, and the work tafel… regardless of how many hours are put in to each one.
“And for those of you living in Flatbush there is the new question “does he or doesn’t he wear a farragamo belt”. I’ll agree it’s a bit crazy to spend 360.00 dollars on a belt, but should that be a deciding factor in a shidduch?? (besides many of them are 10.00 dollar imitations).”
I agree that it shouldn’t be a “deciding factor” in a shidduch. However, the idea that someone would spend $360 on a belt says something about him (i.e. high maintenance). If I’m not looking for someone who’s high maintenance, maybe that will raise just a bit of a red flag.
From my end, my mother once said to me, “It’s not that a chup on a boy is a deal-breaker in a shidduch- it’s totally not- but I just can’t see you ending up with a boy who has a chup.” Chups happen to drive me crazy, but I’ve gone out with wonderful boys who have a chup. It’s obviously not a deal-breaker, but ultimately, the chup (in most cases) was somewhat representative of the differences in hashkafa/personality that we had.
“I recently heard a girl complain “I wouldn’t pay a penny to meet a shadchan”, really? why not?? does the shadchan owe you anything to spend hours and hours to try to find you someone–do you know of anyone that works for free?? (for the record i personally have never charged anyone or even accepted anything for any involvement in shidduchim).”
I agree with other posters- when do you ever pay someone if they don’t promise to do work for you? Will I shell out thousands of dollars for all the shadchanim I met who have never set me up??December 28, 2015 6:35 am at 6:35 am #1120648chaya1Participant
If boys would stop looking only for girls size 2 to 4 that come with a parental wallet size 18 and would look at the girls overall midos ,inner beauty, frumkeit intelligence and last but least if they are pretty then it will go a long way to solve the shiduch crisis.December 28, 2015 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1120649
I agree on principle. I have B’H also seen that there are many good boys (and parents thereof) who are not particularly interested in external things such as money and looks.
I wish I could think of girls for those boys, actually… I just can’t:(December 28, 2015 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1120650
DY -“??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
Tell me why you don’t read my posts? I answered you – years ago in my topic of “Who wants to be a Tzaddikes like Rus.”
There is nothing wrong with marrying a guy 20 – 30 years older than you!
How old do you think Boaz was?!?December 28, 2015 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1120651
Why don’t you read my posts? I told you years ago that I read your posts, but I disagree with them.
You are saying that what Boaz did should be replicated. I am showing you from the gemara that you’re wrong.
Please don’t answer until you read my post!December 29, 2015 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1120652
Forgive me. I am not posting to answer the OP’s question. I’m not sure what (or if) the shidduch crisis is, and I don’t pretend to know to whom to attribute this (hypothetical?) phenomenon.
I do wish to say that although the Italian shoemaker and designer is no longer among the living, it might be nice to spell his name correctly.
– Salvatore Ferragamo –
(I wonder if he would have been be gratified/ flattered/ insulted/ or most likely- indifferent- to find his belts acting the part of one of the subjects of this discussion.)December 29, 2015 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1120654
DY -“I am showing you from the gemara that you’re wrong”
No. I proved already over there – that you’re the one that’s wrong!
It says Yalda – for sure not passed 13 y/o!
Even an old man can marry a 13 year old girl!December 29, 2015 7:06 am at 7:06 am #1120655MammeleParticipant
Health: you’re being too intellectual with this issue. You won’t convince any young marriageable women here, so just face reality…December 29, 2015 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1120656HashemisreadingParticipant
I laugh as I look at the first sentence of the OP.December 29, 2015 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1120657
Yes it is funny.
Ferragamo is not the only thing being misspelled round these parts.
It occurred to me after my post went up that perhaps I should have started with the difference between “are” and “our” (from the marvelous thread “Is all the kvetching are own fault?” – which makes me gag not kvetch) before I got involved with fancy leather belts.
Of course any poster with too much time on his hands can scour the archives and list all my own errors…December 29, 2015 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1120658
Most young girls do not want to have to care for an elderly husband while still young themselves.December 29, 2015 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1120659
I should have started with the difference between “are” and “our” (from the marvelous thread “Is all the kvetching are own fault?” – which makes me gag not kvetch)
I’m sure that was intentional and that the effect was desired.December 29, 2015 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1120660CTLAWYERParticipant
“Do you know anyone who works for free?”
Yes, the losing attorneys who take contingency fee cases. It’s a common practice, the client only pays when you win.
BTW> I don’t practice that field of law.
As I’ve posted earlier, the initial meeting with the shadchan is you giving your time free to listen to the shadchan’s pitch as to why the shadchan should be engaged to perform a service. If you decide to use the service, then you pay.December 29, 2015 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1120661
If you will notice, I was quoting the words of the OP when I said that. (I just don’t know how to italicize on this forum… I’m sure someone in the CR will help me out.) My response was that you don’t pay someone who doesn’t promise to do any work for you.
Have you ever met with a shadchan? If you did, I’m going with the assumption that you’re male, since maybe shadchanim are making a sales pitch to boys… they certainly are not making one to girls.December 29, 2015 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1120662CTLAWYERParticipant
Yes, I am male.
I met with shadchanim more than 40 years ago when I was single.
I also met with them within the past dozen years as the parent of both boys and girls and rejected their services.
In the case of my daughters, they absolutely were making a sales pitch…it may have to do with my perceived income/status.December 29, 2015 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1120663
So you do realize that the same sales pitch is not made to every girl.December 29, 2015 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1120664
Technical20, the shidduch market is not a regulated market; no governing body has the authority to get involved and set prices. It’s also not value based; prices are not based on calculation of the actual cost of the service provided. You’re dealing with a free market where shadchanim take what the consumer is willing to give. I’m sure you’re familiar with supply and demand. Some people feel this system can be exploitative, and maybe it is. But so far it’s what we have. The choice of operating within the system or removing yourself from it, is yours.
I know you realize that ultimately your zivug doesn’t come from a human-based system anyway, although humans have been used for years, by The One orchestrating events, to facilitate the desired results.December 29, 2015 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #1120665
golfer: Supply and demand pricing is anti-halachic. Halacha makes dictates on price limitations in the market.December 29, 2015 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1120666
Your first sentence is not true, which is not a stirah to your second sentence (which is partially true).December 29, 2015 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1120667
My first sentence is stating that pure raw S&D pricing unmodified is anti-halachic due to the point made in my second sentence, which if accepted would alter pure S&D pricing.December 29, 2015 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1120668
Then you need to clarify in a major way, because price is generally based on supply and demand. A retailer can’t raise his prices above market prices (for the market in which he’s competing in), on metalt’lin, but those prices are usually set by s&d, completely consistent with halachah.
A shadchan’s services, BTW, would not be subject to ona’ah.December 29, 2015 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1120669
My only point was that it is not unreasonable for a girl to refuse to pay a shadchan who has not provided her with a service.December 29, 2015 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1120670
“who has not provided her with a service.”
From the shadchans perspective, perhaps spending 30 minutes with you IS a service. Why is the shadchans time any less valuable than yours or mine? Perhaps we should take the analogy to a lawyer one step further. Perhaps if the shadchan was able to charge a $50 fee to meet with a young man or young lady he/she would have the resources to hire an assistant to help answer phone calls, emails, texts, mesages etc. As it is right now, for their initial free meeting all they get is kvetching, whining and complaining in forums such as these.December 30, 2015 12:07 am at 12:07 am #1120671
It has always been the long time tradition that a shadchan is paid only once they make a successful shidduch. This has been true hundreds of years ago (the seforim hakedoshim discuss this fact) and this has been generally the rule at least as recently as in the last decade.
Has this changed in the last ten years?December 30, 2015 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1120672
From the girl’s point of view, maybe spending thirty minutes with the shadchan is a service. Why is the girl’s time any less valuable than yours or mine?December 30, 2015 2:38 am at 2:38 am #1120673
RebbYidd23- that’s not so logical, since the girl is the one who needs the services of the shadchan, not the other way around.
I personally am not willing to pay a shadchan until a shidduch goes through… or maybe, maybe if it was a serious shidduch that didn’t end up working out. Maybe you can say it’s not unreasonable to pay a shadchan, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable not to want to do so, either.
I even met with a shadchan who told me that when she was in shidduchim, if a shidduch was a good idea but didn’t work out in the end, she bought a present for the shadchan. To me, that seems like more than adequate and a nice thing to do.December 30, 2015 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1120674
The shadchan needs the girl or else he has nothing to offer the boys.December 30, 2015 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1120675
Mammele -“Health: you’re being too intellectual with this issue. You won’t convince any young marriageable women here, so just face reality”
The funny thing is you think that I’m trying to convince women with my posts! Now why would you think that? Girls nowadays only think with their emotions, not with Sechel.December 30, 2015 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1120676shevaMember
I think a lot of girls think they deserve a lot better that what they do deserve and dont agree to look down on something and accept that they to have issues which need to be looked down on.December 30, 2015 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1120678
Could you just stop trying to convince girls to marry people they don’t want? If a girl feels that she would be unhappy if she marries that boy, why question that?December 30, 2015 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1120679
Mr.Yidd -“Polygamy may not be illegal in a couple of years. And it’s not radical. For many people it is an ancient tradition”
This applies to you also – Could you just stop trying to convince girls to marry people they don’t want? If a girl feels that she would be unhappy if she marries that boy, why question that?
Practice what you Preach!!!December 30, 2015 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1120680
RebYid. that is quite illogical. she is not providing the shadchan anything. If she doesnt want to listen to the shadchans suggestions, she could just say no, go away, not interested. Alternatively, if she feels that her spending time with the shadchan is a service she is providing for the shadchan, let her charge for her time.
“The shadchan needs the girl or else he has nothing to offer the boys.”
editedDecember 30, 2015 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1120681
Polygamy is the practice of having more than one spouse, not of forcing girls to marry people they don’t want to marry. And I’m not sure what you mean by “practice what you preach”, because I don’t force girls to marry anyone and am not in a polygamous marriage.December 30, 2015 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1120682
Mr.Yidd -“because I don’t force girls to marry anyone and am not in a polygamous marriage.”
From where did you get the impression that I believe in forcing women to marry aganist their will?
I don’t believe in that, do you?
The Shadchanim should offer older guys, not just younger ones!December 30, 2015 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1120683
I didn’t say you believe in forcing women to marry against their will. You seemed to imply that I don’t practice what I preach and that polygamy is against what I said. Since I am not in a polygamous marriage, “practice what you preach” doesn’t apply even if I said something anti-polygamy, which I did not.December 30, 2015 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1120684ABS-SAParticipant
There seems to be a common theme here, that usually when one party says no after one date, the other party also said no.
That would seem to indicate that a shidduch is not going to make it and it is best to move on for all concerned.
The problem is when one side wants another date and the other doesn’t. It may then be worthwhile for both sides to agree in advance that if one side wants another date, the other side is obligated to go out again.
This may seem radical on the surface, but it would most likely stop many good shidduchim being ruined prematurely.December 30, 2015 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1120685
OK. Second most.December 30, 2015 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1120686
Mr.Yidd -“doesn’t apply even if I said something anti-polygamy, which I did not.”
You obviously didn’t understand my post! You posted to me that I should stop trying to convince women that they should marry guys that they don’t want. I responded to you that you hold the same thing with your posts on polygamy.
Unless you tell me that you know women that don’t care!December 30, 2015 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1120687
I know of some women who don’t care.December 31, 2015 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1120688
Mr.Yidd -“I know of some women who don’t care”
If you really do, there ain’t more than a handful!
My solution is more reasonable than polygamy.December 31, 2015 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1120689
You don’t need more than a handful. Plus, that’s not even counting the women who prefer polygamy.January 1, 2016 7:02 am at 7:02 am #1120690
Mr.Yidd -“You don’t need more than a handful. Plus, that’s not even counting the women who prefer polygamy.”
What’s your point? Even if true, it won’t solve any crisis. My solution will put a dent in the Shidduch crisis!January 1, 2016 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1120691
More girls would get married. And I’m not sure your solution wouldn’t cause a divorce crisis when the guy is 80 and the girl is still young.January 3, 2016 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1120692
Mr.Yidd -“And I’m not sure your solution wouldn’t cause a divorce crisis when the guy is 80 and the girl is still young.”
My solution also applies when the guy is 40 and the girl is 20, and when the guy is 60 and the girl is 40, and when the guy is 55 and the girl is 35, and so on, etc…January 3, 2016 2:21 am at 2:21 am #1120693
Why would a 20 year old girl agree to marry a 40 year old guy? She’s still in the same parsha as guys in their 20s.January 3, 2016 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1120694
If 20 year olds marry 80 year olds you might solve shidduch crisis but youll create an almana crisis.January 3, 2016 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1120695
Health, would you marry a woman 20 years older than yourself?January 3, 2016 7:44 am at 7:44 am #1120696
Joseph -“Why would a 20 year old girl agree to marry a 40 year old guy? She’s still in the same parsha as guys in their 20s”
And why would a 20 y/o agree to be, in your theory of polygamy, wife #2 ?!?January 3, 2016 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1120697
Mr. Yidd -“Health, would you marry a woman 20 years older than yourself?”
Are you offering me one?
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