June 17, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #597462
are you? I know i should ask my lor but there are many erudite learned posters here i thought id ask here.June 17, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #778535
im not sure what erudite means
but No you are not permitted to.
some rule leniently on this when a variety of conditions are fulfilled, such as there is no meat department there, or the knife is known to be used only for fruit, or other things (im apparently not erudite enough to know which)
no one in my circles would ever buy such cut-up-fruit.June 17, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #778536
Busy As A BeeParticipant
What about fruit on a platter in a nonjewish location, are you allowed to eat the grapes and blueberries (fruit that is not cut) if its on the decorative platter with the rest of the fruit?June 17, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #778537
I do, I was told that there’s a knife specifically used for fruit (called a fruit knife) and anyway regarding R. 80 there are a lot of stores that the meat department is in a totally different part of the storeJune 17, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #778538
Depends how it is prepared. In case the knife is used for fish, meat, or other such products then it is certainly not permissible. I recall the fish store in my old neighborhood was owned by a gentile. He has a special knife for kosher fish and that is where we, along with many other families, bought fish from. But IMHO you have got to do a thorough investigation before buying from such a store.June 17, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #778539
Depends how it is prepared.
Don’t you mean there is more than meets the eye?June 17, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #778540
Moderator-80-“but No you are not permitted to.”
It depends if it’s a small mom and pop store cutting up a small quantity of fruit or a bigger department store such as shop rite which cuts large quantities. The issue is that it can be assumed that after the first several cuts, any bi’en that may be on the knife will have been wiped off and those pieces onto which they were transferred to are batul chad bitrei with the non treif pieces. If I am not mistaken, I believe it is muttar lichatchilah-especially since it is unlikely that in a prominent store they would use the same knife and if they did they most likely cleaned it. In a small store you would be correct because there may not be enough “kosher” pieces to be mivatel the treif ones and there is a much bigger likelihood that the same knife is used for the meats as for the fruit.June 17, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #778542
always runs with scissors fastParticipant
The problem with cut up fruits is the knife they were using. I WOULD NEVER buy half a watermelon from a non jew store because what else was that knife used to cut? THey may have brought it from the back of the grocery where they have a little deli, they may wash it in the same sink etc.
NEver mind kashrus, but at least in a yiddisher store, we know/hope/expect that a yid has to wash with a tepel after making!June 17, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #778543
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
What about fruit on a platter in a nonjewish location, are you allowed to eat the grapes and blueberries (fruit that is not cut) if its on the decorative platter with the rest of the fruit?
YesJune 17, 2011 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #778544
Yes they have a special knife but if the guy needs to cut his bacon sandwich that he has for lunch do you think he would hesitate using this special knife?June 17, 2011 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #778545
What about the peeled and cored whole pineapples? I believe that there is a special machine that does this and it is doubtful that it could be used for anything else? Also, what about products in a bulk food store that originally were kosher – the sealed bag had a hechsher? There is a large chain of bulk food stores in Canada that sells the Osem Israeli cous cous in bulk for a fraction of the price that it sells for in small packages. The clerk told me that the bin that cous cous is in has never been used for anything else – however, the scoops are washed often in a dishwasher and I am sure the original scoop doesn’t go back to the original bin. Would the cous cous be kosher?June 17, 2011 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #778546
Blueberries might need to be checked for bugs they are not the same as grapes.June 17, 2011 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #778547
Yes they have a special knife but if the guy needs to cut his bacon sandwich that he has for lunch do you think he would hesitate using this special knife?
Yes he would, if a health inspection would occur when that happend and he was caught doing that, the store would receive a heavy fineJune 17, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #778548
Yes there is more than meets the eye concerning the knife. While it may resemble a simple blade, it can contain the essence of what it was previously used for. If the knife is used to cut meat and ten minutes later its used for cheesecake, don’t you think that is a problem?June 18, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #778549
2qwerty: Halacha is not concerened about a far-fetched possibility if there are keilim meyuchadim.June 19, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #778550
I was told that I was not allowed to buy cut up fruit from a store without a hechsher because there is always the possibility of the person cutting the fruit to use that same knife on his ham sandwich too.June 19, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #778551
Yes he would, if a health inspection would occur when that happend and he was caught doing that, the store would receive a heavy fine
Health inspectors can’t and don’t do surprise visitis (like Kashrus supervisors) that will burst into the room and catch him red-handed using the fruit knife to cut his bacon sandwich. He will have at least a few minutes, if not days, advance notice before the health inspector comes to the back of the store where he keeps the bacon.
Secondly, there is no law against using the same knife for fruits and bacon or cheesecake.June 19, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #778552
What about a fruit store that doesnt sell anything else than fruits and veggies, like Shins Blue Ribbon on avenue m?June 19, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #778553
I was told by a rov in Brooklyn who is the administrator for widely respected kashurs orgainzation that a fruit store or a large grocery store that runs a large-scale fruit operations always have special, expensive knives that they use to cut fruit, and it is very unlikely that they would those knives to cut anything else. He said I could buy cut-up fruit in such stores.June 19, 2011 2:37 am at 2:37 am #778554
minyan gal- I believe it’s ok because the cous cous is cold and so is the scooper so there’s no problem with blios and since it is coming out of the dishwasher there is no problem with bien either. Coffee may be a problem because it becomes treif in the dishwasher and since it is served hot, there are blios. I know there are poskim who are maikel with coffee, but I’m not sure why.June 19, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #778555
if you order take out from a fleishig place and goish delivery guy brings it without any seal, will you eat it? just because there is only a slight chance doesn’t mean we should start trusting non jews with our kashrus
1st timer, I was taking about personal lunch so doesn’t matter that meat is not sold there.June 19, 2011 3:44 am at 3:44 am #778556
I know you’re talking about employees personal lunch, but I believe I heard somewhere that if the owner knows that his entire reputation is on the line and we the customers can make or break their entire business by losing their trust, then you could rely on the premise that they will not be using the knives that are supposed to be strictly only for fruits.June 19, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #778557
1st timer: There is no such premise. These stores are not catering to kosher customers and make no commitment that the fruit is kosher.June 19, 2011 4:03 am at 4:03 am #778558
1st timer, and how should the goishe owner or worker realize that just by cutting his sandwich he might be violating kashrus rules?June 19, 2011 4:36 am at 4:36 am #778559
“In case the knife is used for fish, meat, or other such products then it is certainly not permissible.”
I don’t understand why not. For all such cutting the knife would be cold and clean.June 19, 2011 4:50 am at 4:50 am #778560
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
See Shach (29) and Taz (13) on Yoreh Deah 94.June 19, 2011 4:55 am at 4:55 am #778561
to hello 99. I am sorry to say but the above scenario is not farfetched(workers using fruit knife for treif sandwiches)There was a fruit store where such an incidence did occur (probably happiest who posted above heard something about it)BTW That store though is no longer around. If you are from brooklyn do you recall what happened last year by dunkin donuts? The workers were warming up their own lunches in the microwaves? It was also farfetched but it did happen. Do you actually think in big supermarkets without hechsher they make sure to wash fruit knives separately and not in hot water? In many places the fruit section is next to the deli, cheese or fish. All problematic if washed together.Also, even if washed separately if the fruit knives soak in the sink isn’t the sink treif? Or if they wash in an industrial washer isn’t it a trief dishwasher even if washed separately? Unfortunately things are not so simple.June 19, 2011 9:22 am at 9:22 am #778562
I think the answer would have been simpler if you just asked your LOR.June 19, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #778563
Ok, first lets establish the halachos, then we can make the assumptions.
If the knife is “treif”, then if you cut fruits with it, then if it was dirty, then would need to be washed or scraped, depending on the type of fruit. (YD 96:5 (discussing a meat knife)).
This is either because of the junk which we assume is present on the knife, or because of the stuff which is absorbed in the knife.
Now, if it is because of the stuff absorbed, we do not need to worry about that here, since we can assume the knife if eino ben yomo, since that is the general assumption we make. (It is actually not an assumption, it is really a din of sfek sfeika, but that is what we call it.)
If it is because of the junk which is on it, then we would need to worry.
Now, there is an assumption that knives are dirty, but it seems to be a rebuttable assumption. (taz 96:3; shach 96:6; shach taz nekudas hakesef 89:4).
Based on the above, the Rema 96:4 says that we can buy cut fruits from goyim which are not charif, and ???? ?????? ???.
This Rema seems to be directly on point, but you might argue that it is talking about a larger operation, where they are doing very large amounts, and probably have specific knives, and we can also rely on the kula that the taam is batul in the first ones.
This is all possible. So lets discuss our assumptions about our metzius.
Clean- I am betting the knife is cleaned well. Nobody needs a lawsuit about e-coli from cutting meat or fish. Particularly if it is not a mom and pop shop.
Large amounts- I think you can assume if it is a large store, they are doing large amounts at a time.
Specified knife- Highly likely, especially in a big store.
Eino ben yomo- This is an assumption in din, we must assume the knife is eino ben yomo (relevant to the bliyus.)
So, I am pretty comfortable buying from a large store. I ain’t a posek, and I ain’t paskening. You ask your own rabbi. But I think I would do it.June 19, 2011 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #778566
pba: eino ben yomo is not relevant in a commercial setting where the knife likely IS used daily. However, as you pointed out it is unnecessary.June 19, 2011 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #778567
Well I think ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? is relevant here, for two reasons:
1. There is no reason to assume definitely that every knife is used every day.
2. The concept is not based on a ???, it is based on a sfek sfeika (safek it was not used, even if it was, safek the item it was used for is pogem b’ein.). So we don’t need to say it probably wasn’t used, there just needs to be a safek.June 19, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #778568
pba: a sfek sfeika requires the safeik be at least 50% mutar. Some say both sfeikos some say just oneJune 19, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #778569
hello99, thank you for explain the side for permitting it. I wasnt paskening against i was just mentioning 1 possible problem that might come up. It’s possible there are more problems that we didnt think of and like any question everyone should trust their own Rav and not the internet.June 19, 2011 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #778570
That is so. Still, I have never seen anyone considering the likelihood when discussing the din of stam keilim.June 19, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #778571
By the way, the other possible problem with fruits/berries is bugs! And also bugs/copepods in the water that is used to wash them.
I’m just providing problems to think about im not paskening either way.June 20, 2011 3:41 am at 3:41 am #778572
to Poppa BAR Abba thank-you but just wondering re chariff fruit from the REMA: With extensive fruit and salad platters and lunch boxes to go would we not be afraid these days that the knife is used for charif or trief.(IE if MR A in the grocery is putting together a salad platter with deli and he notices there is a sliver of fat on the turkey i do not think he will make a special trip to use a different knife). Additionally even if knives are kept separate (fruit/salad knives from salad/fruit platters that also combine with sauces or sides) I do not know how one can guarantee that they are not byomo or charif or trief. I just am not sure if the REMA would apply to modern delis and supermarkets who constantly sell cut up fruits and salads with sauces fish cheeses and meats packed together.June 20, 2011 11:01 am at 11:01 am #778573
PBA: The Gilyon Maharsha YD 122 on Shach 4 writes that knives are used frequently and stam keilim einam bnei yoman does not apply to them. Additionally, Darkei Teshuva 122:18 quotes the VaYeishev Moshe that a type of pot that is usually used every day at least once is a vadai not safek, and assumed ben yomo.
I have long heard, but not seen inside a sefer, that in a commercial establishment stam keilim does not apply. Based on these sources and the logic of the sfek sfeika, it would seem to be a very reasonable statement.June 20, 2011 11:06 am at 11:06 am #778575
abcd: charif would only be an issue if your fruit/vege platter contained sharp fruits and veges. In that case it should NOT be purchased from a store without hashgacha.June 20, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #778577
thanx hello99 but what I was trying to imply is that there are so many different salads and fruits in supermarkets these days prepacked you do not know when buying a box of cut up watermelon, if a minute before the same knife was used to help chop up onions with a side of meat, or many times you see fruits and salads that are mixed with trief dressings that knife might have been used in preparation of a treif dish even if you are only buying non-charif items. The modern supermarket is very different then the REMA times.I think a delineation should be made between stam a fruit store and store that sells fruit and salad together with other dishes and saucesJune 20, 2011 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #778578
abcd: if you buy a non-charif item cut with a clean knife, it is irrelevant if the knife was previously used for charif treif. While the knife itself is not kosher, it can do nothing to the non-chaif, cold watermelonJune 20, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #778579
coolJune 20, 2011 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #778580
To hello:I might be assuming to much doubt but I am not sure if they fully keep knives clean. I actually have seen counter people in Kosher and non Kosher stores alike using knives and utensils without fully rinsing it off. Strict halacha according to what you say yes you are right.But i just dont trust them to fully clean the knives.Even in frum takeout stores kashrus agencies cannot vouch for things being fully parve and advise to assume everything is fleishig or flieshig keilim.Once again I trust your Halachic knowledge of this issue but this might not be such a black and white issue. So I will not err judgement I will also ask the opinion of a Rav that I know that is a consultant for various local and major kashrus organizations. It could be you are totally right and my concerns are not justified.(will not be back tonight though sorry)When i get back the answer I will post unless someone else does. be well
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