Are you allowed to give Tzeddakah/charity to Non-Jews

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  • #1991358
    Maivin
    Participant

    Are you allowed to give Tzeddakah/charity to Non-Jews or is it better not to??

    #1991778
    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    מפרנסים עניי עובדי כוכבים עם עניי ישראל מפני דרכי שלום ואין ממחין בידי עניי עובדי כוכבים בלקט שכחה ופאה מפני דרכי שלום ושואלים בשלומם ואפילו ביום חגם מפני דרכי שלום

    רמב”ם הלכות עבודה זרה וחוקות הגויים פ”י ה”ה

    #1991781
    IYK
    Participant

    Non Jewish veterans are frequently homeless. They fought for the freedom you take advantage of in your country. As such, hakaras hatov in the form of money to people who did you such a favor is tzeddaka. However, if the non Jew burns the flag of that country in disrespect for the lives lost, it is not hakaras hatov and is not tzeddaka.

    #1991787
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Find out if it’s going to only be used for family food and clothing etc… But from a halachic standpoint if it’s going to be used for any religious reason then it’s against halacha of supporting yoshko and avoda zara

    #1991791
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Malvin: On what basis do you think it might be asur to provide tzedakah to a non-Jew?? Many significant charities benefit both Yidden and goyim and there is no way you can earmark your donation for actions or programs that only benefit Yidden. Obviously, there are charities we can prioritize that benefit yidden but no reason not to leave a small portion of our charitable giving for worthy mosdos that help all.

    #1991800
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    In internet slang, a troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as social media (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.), a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses, or manipulating others’ perception. This is typically for the troll’s amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival’s online activities or manipulating a political process. Even so, Internet trolling can also be defined as purposefully causing confusion or harm to other users online, for no reason at all.

    #1991806
    IYK
    Participant

    Commonsaychel:
    What was your purpose in posting such a post. It comes across as pointing fingers, as it seems you feel someone is trolling. Such expressions tend to cause divisions. You are free to express what you wish to say, but is the goal to unify, or divide? I don’t need your answer. You need to ask yourself what your intent was in that post.

    #1991809
    ujm
    Participant

    Giving money to a nochri is not considered to be tzedaka.

    #1991893
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I’ve supported non-Jewish charities plenty of times. I’ve donated to cancer research organizations, I’ve donated to Wounded Warrior (helps soldiers who lost limbs fighting for our country), and also to March of Dimes (helps with babies born prematurely).
    At my job, there are times when there are collections, usually when someone loses a relative. In those cases, I have to see what the charity is that they’re collecting for. Usually it’s just for a floral arrangement, and I have no problem contributing towards those. However, sometimes we get a message saying, “In lieu of flowers, the family is requesting donations be made towards <Charity X>.” I once had an Indian coworker who lost his mother. They requested that donations be made to his Hindu church. Needless to say, I did NOT contribute to that – Hinduism is actual Avodah Zarah, worse than Christianity! (Some hold Christianity is NOT A”Z, and some say it’s a safek. Christians claim to believe in the same Hashem that we do, although they don’t believe in the One-ness of Hashem. We are machmir on it and treat it as A”Z. Hinduism believes in multiple gods, and not the same God we believe in.)

    #1991921
    Forshayer
    Participant

    UJM, Maybe so, but when a Jew is wearing a Kippah on 5th ave and there is a veteran who served his country so that we may wear said Kippah sitting on the sidewalk, and non jews see me give this guy a donation, it is a Kiddush Hashem. I’ll do it every time I have the opportunity. I do it as I am getting onto the GWB also. These people are extremely appreciative and thankful.

    #1991858
    Avi K
    Participant

    Sam, not all of them consider him a god. The Unitarians, for example, think that he was at most a prophet. Some consider him to have been merely a moral exemplar. Most today, other than the clergy, do not really think about these things. They simply are following family traditions. Some only go to church for social or business reasons. In any case, you also have to check out Jews (and those who claim to be Jews). They may be using it for non-tzedaka purposes. BTW, a certain tzedaka sent out an appeal with a photoshopped picture of Rav Kanievsky and an open book. Someone I know looked closely and saw that it was a New Testament.

    #1991973
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @IYK, I was merely pointing out what a troll is, if it just so happens that every post that that person posted was trollish in nature so be it…. I was not pointing fingers.
    Ever heard of the saying if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck.
    There is very few things I agree with GH on, calling out a troll is one of them

    #1991986
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Common Saychel: I am much more tolerant of trolls if they are well done with a bit of humor and sarcasm. Unfortunately, some are simply dumb and childish (aka “Should women be allowed to leave the house w/o their husband’s permission?)

    #1991989
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avi, unitarians make up .3% of all christians in the USA. They are halachiklly a miuta dimiuta if even that much. The overwhelming majority believe in the trinity; the poskim say this is shituf. There sre deos yechidim that for goyim shituf is not assur, but for yidden it definitely is and we are forbidden to support it in any shape or form.

    As for veterans vis a vis hakaras hatov; we don’t find a source in chazal as far as I know that interprets hakaras hatov that way. We have the gemara quoted above, which attributes tzedaka to nochrim as darchei sholom, but not an ends to itself, and as such if a person gives without the understanding that he is a frum jew, it will probably be assur the same way hashovas aveidah is assur; additionally it is a very serious issue of lo sichanem, giving free items to nochrim (or even compliments) is an issur/prohibition.

    #1992194

    Avira: There are deos yechidim that for goyim shituf is not assur,

    I don’t think this is yehidim, I recall it goes back to tosfos, am I wrong?

    > As for veterans vis a vis hakaras hatov; we don’t find a source in chazal

    A related sugya on respect of zekinim in Kidushin considers whether we really respect Tal,iei Hahamim of any age, or really any old people. My rav concludes that Gemora is purposefully vague on the conclusion and both should be respected, and an elderly Aramean surely had some experiences in his life, and veteran status surely increases a chance that a person did something worthy in his life.

    Generally, when you look at Gemoras re:nichrim, we probably need to look at pre-censored sources to see whether we are talking A’Z, minim, etc. Even when talking about christians, it may matter whether they are Jewish/minim, and what the current relationship with them is.

    Also, none of the religious concerns would apply to free-thinkers and Muslims

    #1992200
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Lo sichanem applies to any goy, except an established ger toshav. Muslims and ethical monotheists don’t have the din of ovdei avodah zara, but they are not a halachik ger toshav either.

    The halacha about honoring goyim who are old due to their having had a lot of life experience and undoubtedly seeing miracles of hashem in their lifetime, as explained by the rishonim, is just that… it’s an honorable thing to give honor to. That has zero bearing on giving gifts, tzedaka, favors or compliments. Lo sichanem applies to elderly goyim as well.

    #1992204
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, Rav Moshe invoked it regarding voting. I believe that he also allowed honoring a non-Jew who helped Jews at a dinner. Chazal say that someone who is not grateful is less than a dog.

    #1992256
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Those examples are 100% true. Honoring someone who we directly benefit from; i.e. a supporter of Torah, is hakaras hatov. Voting too, is hakaras hatov because we have a debt to this country allowing us to be free to practice Torah (something not true of the “jewish” state of israel). None of that applies to giving money to veterans who indirectly help in maintaining this country without there being an element of darchei sholom or kidush hashem.

    You and AAQ keep conflating honoring with lo sichanem. Lo sichanem means you can’t give goyim presents. Rav Moshe was speaking about honoring them, although in his specific case presenting them with a gift would be allowed because it’s directly tied to what he did for the yeshiva/shul whatever he helped.

    Also, we would be allowed to give presents to people like police officers or ofhers that we rely on to actively keep us safe, both because of hakaras hatov and because it’s not “chinam”, just to show them favor – we stand to gain by building relationships with these people in the community.

    None of these factors apply to random veterans, especially considering there has not been a war that has threatened American freedom in 80 years. After WW2, all subsequent wars have been either proxy (korea, vietnam), or deterrent to relatively minor threats (gulf war, Iraq, Afghanistan). No veteran alive today ha done anything to keep us safe personally.

    #1992251
    mdd1
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aaruch says that we are provide poor non-Jews with charitable donations.

    #1992317

    Avira, thanks, I had some questions on your position and you responded to them while I was formulated the questions. I agreed that going to a random Chinese citizen and showering him with tzedoka funds is inappropriate, and you agree that we should honor police and ww2 veterans. We just disagree on the facts on between. I think you taking a very narrow view of benefits. Any us veteran took upon himself to risk his life and be sent to whatever place is required. Just that determination is sufficient. Esther becomes Mordecai’s rebbe when she decides to risk her life, not when she actually goes to the king. Any US politician who voted to support freedom ( that excludes some…) benefits us, and Hashem’s will overall. By extension, maybe even those who voted for such politicians have zechus, and this would be a majority of voters, and given that older people vote more, any older person should have zechus

    #1992331
    ujm
    Participant

    Do the moderators consider the Torah as explained by HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l to be unacceptable?

    No

    #1992367
    huju
    Participant

    There is a woman who aggressively seeks tzedukkah on Fridays outside the grocery store in my neighborhood, and many other woman seeking tzedukkah non-aggressively. When I give to someone other than the agressive woman, she tells me that the one I gave to is not Jewish. Sometimes this is correct, but sometimes it is not, but the aggressive woman always says it. Is she in breach of halachah? She has a letter from a rabbi authorizing her to collect tzedukkah. Should I tell that rabbi about this?

    #1992383
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira, you are guilty of slander. How does Israel not allow people to practice Judaism. What about the violations of freedom of religion in America by the toeva crowd, not to mention the marginalization of those who, unlike you, support Israel (which is also part of Judaism)?
    BTW, the Chesed l’Avraham says that when someone is inappropriate for Eretz Yisrael he must be ejected. However, being that he is still a Jew the land has pity on him and makes him feel that it is to blame.

    #1992389
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @huju, they are in front of the grocery in my area as well, they are Roma [gypsies], ask about basic stuff like shema or anything a Jew who covers her head knows and you get a blank stare, If you want to give anyway its your call

    #1992398
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Avi; the toeva people are just as if not more militant in israel than they are in America, so that’s just flat wrong. America enshrines a religious tolerance that almost no other country has, for better or for worse.

    How does israel not let us keep the torah?

    – Kidnappings of thousands of yemeni children from religious families.
    – almost successful in mandating autopsies
    – forcing farmers to violate shmitah and kilayim(this was in the past and the frum ignored their decrees, like making grapefruit which the chazon ish assered)
    – forced military service in an army dedicated to making Hebrew Nationals (you can look up ben gurions quote as to the purpose of the army being a “melting pot”( his exact words)
    – forced gius banos, a fate that was deemed yehereg velo yaavor
    – putting us in questionable situations such as having to decide whether or not it’s allowed to benefit from the mechalelei shabbos at the electric plants
    – proliferation of treif food; most food in eretz yisroel is treif because of massive negligence in terumos and maasros
    – when the swedish (Belgian?) Government wanted to and eventually did ban shechitah, their excuse was that the “leader of the Jews” netanyahu (the oichel nevelos mechalel shabbos and boel nidos that he is) ate non-kosher meat, so it must not be very important to you Jewish people.
    – lack of equality in the job market; charedim are turned down for jobs because of the hatred taught by the government and the Zionists; discrimination is widespread across every sector, and is not cared about….if this were happening to toeva people, they definitely would win law suits for their “rights”
    – proliferation of anti torah culture right in our midst; they put their nevala in our faces, and get the uneducated mizrachim to watch movies and be part of their filthy culture
    – they force rebbeim to take mandatory government courses which include zionist apikorsus
    – they keep is in constant worry over the arab enemies they made for themselves (see rabbi j.b. soloveitchik’s chamesh drashos where he admits this, though many in the religious zionist community harp on the chevron massacre, it is clear as day that it was incited by zionist activity and rhetoric rhat had been festering for decades prior)

    Need some more? I’ve got PLENTY

    #1992438
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Aviradearah, the majority of Israelis know next to nothing about Torah and yiddishkeit. It’s this attitude towards ‘zionists’ that keeps the hatred for charedim burning. It is for us to stop ‘harping’ instead of sitting idly by while expecting them to understand. They hardly even know what shabbos and kosher really is. Why are we judging them so harshly as if they are mumar l’hachis. They know less about Torah than many Jews here in the US. It was a machlokes between Reb Elyashiv and Reb Shlomo Zalman whether Israelis are considered mumarim or tinokos shenishbu. I think we can safely assume (for the purposes of achdus, not necessarily halacha) that things have rapidly changed since then.

    Also, no offense but I personally think just based on historical facts (aside from all the politics) that it’s just false to claim that Arabs were nicer before and the zionists made them hate us more. I think insisting on this whitewash of history would be ‘harping.’ Either way, it’s not relevant to today as last time I checked the medina was established more than 70 years ago so it’s too late to convince the Arabs to like us ‘again.’

    #1992440
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Also, it’s not unequivocally true that the us military serves no purpose to defend us and preserve our freedom today just because WWII is over. The entire world economy depends on US might. The US almost primarily patrols the world’s shipping routes. There are many other important things the military does aside from overseas skirmishes.

    #1992449
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    A yid who gives generously to yiddeshe mosdos can also give to generic non-Jewish charities whose activities and programs benefit yidden along with goyim. I was in Texas over 10 years ago during a flooding episode where the local Chabad house made a big kiddush hashem by serving as neighborhood relief center without regard to religious affiliation and then-Governor Rick Perry gave the shalicah special recognition. Some of the biggest baalei tzadakah in the frum Jewish community have also provided support for local charitable ventures. One does not exclude the other.

    #1992460

    >> Do the moderators consider the Torah as explained by HaRav Avigdor Miller zt’l to be unacceptable?

    > No

    al pi Yinglish dikduk, this answer means that the nistar Torah is not unacceptable, i.e. it is acceptable. given that the torah is not niglah in the post, the moderator probably meant the opposite.

    PS This is not a disrespect to the hard-working mods, but if you become part of the discussion, you are a fair game 🙂 Just showing respect to the non-Jewish language.

    #1992463

    I skipped Avira’s snide remark on Israel that others are protesting because it is off-topic and he mentioned his position before. Combining multiple threads, I have an impression of Avira’s deah (ad presumably his teachers) is being rich on detail, whether halachik or factual, but somehow veering away from important central issues. I hope this is not what Brisker method evolved into.

    Complaining about the Rebbeim forced to teach zionism, you somehow ignore the fact that these Rebbeim and students got a chance to walk streets of Yerushalaim in relative safety instead of dying in Camps and Gulags. The animosity is understandable historically and was pretty reasonable when the Zionist experiment was unsure to survive, but at this point seems most of religious Jews appreciate having a country, imperfect as it is. And you yourself proposed a simple solution to the Rebbe’s dilemma – do not partake funds from the Zionist entity, as you surely wouldn’t in Ottoman empire.

    #1992464

    Yaakov chastised the shepherds at the well who did not trust each other and directed them to work honestly. He was on the way from the yeshiva to shiduchim, why didn’t learn Mishna and not waste time on the goyishe problems?

    A midrash also says that Yaakov “established markets”, that is create right market conditions for economy to work.

    #1992469
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, it’s clear that jews and arabs were far from friends. We lived under islamic law, which allows jews and lehavdil christians to live peacefully under arab government provided they pay taxes and do not missionize. There were waves of islamic extremism under certain caliphates, but compared to living under christian countries where we were expelled, robbed, killed and humiliated all the time, it was much more liveable.

    Zionism flipped that on its head.

    #1992489
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ,
    “because it is off-topic and he mentioned his position before. Combining multiple threads, I have an impression of Avira’s deah (ad presumably his teachers) is being rich on detail, whether halachik or factual, but somehow veering away from important central issues. ”

    TALKING ABOUT THE KETTLE CALLING BLACK, WOW WOW WOW !!!!

    #1992497
    ujm
    Participant

    “No”

    Moderators, so why was his Torah deleted by the mods?

    His Torah wasn’t deleted, your excerpts were. In a past life the request was made by family

    #1992594
    Milhouse
    Participant

    מפרנסים עניי נכרים עם עניי ישראל is not an obligation, it is permission. The gemara is telling the gabaim of a tzedakah fund, to which Jewish donors have given on the understanding that their money will go to עניי ישראל and they will therefore get the reward for tzedaka, that if it happens, while they are distributing the money to עניי ישראל that עניי נכרים show up and get in line, they are permitted to give to them too, even though whoever donated that money did not fulfill the mitzvah and will not get the reward. And the reason this is allowed is darchei sholom. The reason it’s not stealing is that the donors know this in advance, and give on the understanding that their money may go for that purpose.

    The gemara further says that if a nochri wishes to donate to the tzedaka fund, and it’s not possible to refuse the donation, then it should be given to עניי נכרים so that the donor will not get a mitzvah, unless the donor specifically stipulated that it should go only to עניי ישראל.

    #1992595
    Avi K
    Participant

    Avira , I suggest that you read Martin Gilbert’s “In Ishmael’s House”. First of all, the dhimmi laws also involved humiliating subservience. Jews could not build new synagogues and were required to step down and out of the way when passing a Muslim. In Yemen, girls whose fathers died were given to Muslim families (unless they were married – which is why they married so early). There were forced conversions *see “Iggeret haShmad”), blood libels, and massacres from the time of Mohammed’s genocide of Arabian Jewry. Zionism gave the Jews a place to go. It also shut up missionaries who were claiming that the Holocaust proved that they were right all along, c”v (even Rav Soloveichik was accosted on multiple occasions). Most importantly, Zionism re-established the Jewish state. Yes, it has imperfections. So do children and parents. So does a shul. Would you desert them because of their imperfections?

    #1992465
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadolha, the issue here is the motivation. Giving to goyim is not because of altruism or lishma, it’s because of the gemara quoted at the beginning of this thread, and nothing more. Chazal say that we do it exclusively because of darchei sholom. There is no greater example of darchei sholom than a wealthy yid who would normally give only to yidden, but that would cause a lack of sholom with goyim, so he gives to goyim as well. Word for word what the gemara says.

    The problem is when we make it into a lishma. It’s the same as the issur of hashavas aveida. It is unequivocally assur to return a goys aveidah. The only time one must do so is to avoid chilul hashem, and one is allowed to do so – although not required – to create a kidush hashem. People who go around saying to treat goyim the same as yidden are violating the Torah in a profound way. Rashi explains that when one returns an aveidah to a goy, he is “mareh beatzmo” he shows about himself that he’s not concerned with doing mitzvos for hashem, because if he were he would only do it when it is a mitzvah. Since he’s doing it for anyone, it’s saying that he does not care about doing mitzvos for hashem.

    That’s when Jewish people knew this basic truth, so giving to goyim used to be a clear indication that such a person was not interested in torah. Nowadays we’re so taken by pluralism and false equality that we think we are all the same and are all afforded the same privileges. To the point that if someone thinks of discerning yidden from goyim, he is the one who is thought to have violated a false “torah” of equality and fairness. Genevas daas, hashavas aveidah, taos akum, all are “unthinkable”, a travesty to Torah and hashem because it doesn’t comport with modern ideology.

    Re; israel and harping – whatever the status of Israeli frei people are, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel past and present has given a hard time to the torah world. They have, whether in knowing evil intent or not, presented us with roadblocks, bias and anti torah culture. And yes, they have become the lightning rod of anti semitism.

    You can think whatever you want, but i suggest reading some history books about how Jews got along with Arabs before Zionism. The Grand mufti of Jerusalem, once a friend to Jewish people, pushed hitler over the edge to carry out the final solution. A million or so sefardi jews were expelled from their homes just after the accursed state was declared.

    If the truth and following the Torah makes the frei hate us, then so be it – that’s nothing new. The am haaratzim always hated the bnei torah; it’s all over chazal. I’m not going to change my service if hashem, and my fulfillment of halo misanecha hashem esneh uvmiskomemecha eskoteit. I will not mix in with them, dress like them, talk like them, fight in their znus army or speak their filthy language when not necessary.

    #1992606
    boruchbrown123
    Participant

    @AviraDeArah
    You are confusing the concept of ‘mipnei aviva’ – ‘to prevent hatred’ and ‘mishum darkhei shalom’ – ‘to promote peace’. Two separate concepts in Rambam, the latter applies to providing charity to non-Jews and is NOT bedieved.
    You are also clearly unaware of the Meiri who paskens that you have a 100% chiyuv to return a lost object to a non-Jew nowadays.

    #1992533
    boruchbrown123
    Participant

    Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Kings and Wars 10:12
    “And even for non-Jews – our sages commanded us to visit the sick and to bury their dead with the dead of the Jews and to give sustenance to their needy among the needy of the Jews – because of promoting peaceful ways. Behold there is the verse – “Hashem is good with all and he is merciful upon all of his works” (Tehilim / Psalms 145, 9) and it is said “And its ways are ways of pleasantness and all its paths are peace.” (Mishle – Proverbs 3, 17)”

    Shulchan Arukh, Yoreh De’ah 151:12
    “It is permitted to support their [non-Jewish] poor, and visit their sick, and bury their dead, and eulogise and comfort their mourners, because of the ways of peace.”

    Shevet MiYehuda 3:70
    “Lately it has become customary, to our great detriment, amongst our teachers to state that there is no real obligation towards bettering the life of non-Jews…and there is no need to encourage the community to support non-Jews with tzedakah and kindness, for any such acts are only done for the sake of darchei shalom [ways of peace] and thus have no real source in the Torah law. Therefore we must define the true concept of darchei shalom. It is not just a means to keep Judaism safe from non-Jewish hatred, but flows from the core ethical teachings of the Torah.”

    #1992618
    ujm
    Participant

    Since this site can’t publish Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l’s direct quotations, allow me please to paraphrase what Rav Miller said about this subject.

    You’re sitting in the subway and a so-called blind man comes into the car tapping with his stick, and he’s peeking through his small glasses, looking for customers. He’s walking around and nobody is doing anything. So when he passes by, you just take out a penny – not a nickel, because this fellow is not worth a nickel – and you take that penny and drop it into his tin can. Don’t let anyone see that it’s only a penny, and you drop it into his tin cup with the most resounding bang that you can. And then lean back virtuously to enjoy the admiring gazes of your fellow passengers. Look, you have to do something, so you make it worth it.

    When you’re waiting on line at the post office, and this gentile woman comes by. She’s knocking her pushka for veterans or cancer or some other gentile cause, so it’s good to always have a penny ready. Drop in a penny and she’ll give you a big thank you. And you’ve done what is required of you.

    #1992620
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Boruch – the achronim completely ignore that meiri; it’s a daas yochid; I didn’t mention it because we don’t pasken like him.

    I never said giving tzedaka to goyim is a bedieved, i said that it’s an ends to a means and not lishma or altruism.

    Avi – the lives of the Jews in arab countries were still exponentially better than their ashkenazi counterparts. Blood libels were everywhere in Europe, but only happened in the 1500s in the ottoman empire – “suleiman the magnificent” issued a firma, a legal ban on blood libels in that time, as did another muslim ruler in the mid 1800s at the behest of moses montefiore. Then they became very popular…. Guess when? In the 20th century. Thank you Zionism.

    Being a jew in galus was and is no picnic, but jews flourished in the arab lands, with free access to professions, markets, freedom of movement, yeshivos, and they had shuls.. I don’t know the details of your claims, but they had beautiful shuls, and their example is copied by sefardi jews in America, sometimes to a fault.

    If not for zionism, we could have easily immigrated to Arab lands, had the zionists not stoked a fiery hatred of us prior. We didn’t need their help. If not for zionism, said the chazon ish, jews would jave davened and done teshuva and been saved from the holocaust like the yerushalmis who prevented rommel from attacking eretz yisroel with their teshuva and fasting. Instead they relied on kochi veotzem yadi and we know what happened afterwards.

    The state is not just “imperfect” it is rotten at the core, the mamzer of the union between nationalism and jewish identitarianism

    #1992622
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Boruch….r. unterman was a zionist rabbi; that sefer does not convince me any more than it would if you’d quote him as saying that the state is the harbinger of moshiach.

    What is his proof that darchei sholom means any more than darchei sholom? It’s clear from the gemara; the reason is to have peace with goyim. It is not chesed lishma.

    He’s nust saying “well, no, the REAL reason is lishma, don’t be fooled by the language of the gemara”

    He’s wrong about this just as he’s wrong about kesuvos 111a that “there isn’t REALLY an issue of the 3 oaths, just move along in the Gemara, nothing to see here…just donate to the JNF and all will be well!”

    #1992628
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The rambam.you quoted is, as not surprising…wrenched out of context. He does not say “non jew”, he says akum, which is in contrast to the lines above your quote where he says that it appears to him that a ger toshav receives chessed like a Jew. Then he says that even an idol worshipper receives tzedaka, visiting their sick and burying their dead, because of darchei sholom. See Taz on the shulchan aruch seif that you quoted that explains that there is no connection at all between the giving lf tzedaka to goyim and to Jews, by yidden it’s a mitzvah and by goyim it’s just darchei sholom.

    #1992629
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    There is also a theory in the achronim that the meiri wrote that to show goyim that we don’t think of them as goyim as stated in the gemara, because that was only said about ovdei avodah zara, but that he didn’t mean it lehalacha.

    #1992631
    ujm
    Participant

    The Gemara says מפרנסים עניי עכו”ם עם עניי ישראל – “We are obligated to support the gentile poor together with the Jewish poor” (Gittin 61a). That means because of darkei shalom, in order to keep peace, we give some charity to the goyim as well. In order to create a good impression, when you’re giving money to a Jewish poor man, and at the same time a gentile comes by for charity, you should be careful to give him something as well. It doesn’t mean that you have to give him the same. But for the sake of shalom, you give him something.

    It says עם עניי ישראל – “With the Jewish poor.” Only when they come together. When this נכרי, this gentile, comes by himself, then you’re not obligated to give him anything. He could just think that you’re a tightwad; but not that you’re impartial to Jews. However, you should always be careful, because if it will create animosity, you should make sure to give him something. You’ll have to use your own judgement.

    #1992672

    I also thought that Sephardim had it easier – until I talked to those who have both direct memory and historical knowledge. Not much love lost. And Sephardim proper ended up in Muslim lands only after being kicked out of Spain. Ashkenazim on the other hand moved to new lands volunteerly. The real answer is probably that there is no average experience. There were good and bad periods and aspects in different places. For example, Jews had unbelievable autonomy in polish lithuanian commonwealth via vaad arba artzos…

    Also, we know more of history of arab countries than in 1950s:
    Could you imagine if Jews of Aleppo stayed until islamic state and russian carpet bombing?

    Also, destruction of european jewry didn’t start in 1939.. numerous communities were already destroyed by Soviet communists by that time at no fault of zionism

    #1992673

    Avira, a very good point on different motivation for tzedoka and influence of pluralistic society. Just don’t throw the baby with the bathwater… Derech shalom and Kiddush Hashem are not something to disregard v “real mitzvah”

    #1992675

    Ujm, here you are talking about a so called blind man…. And in the cynical context of busy NY that is hard for me to imagine. I got a similar advice from a haredi Rav after giving tzedoka to a visiting blackhated young healthy looking person who after collecting spend the rest of davening communicating on his impressive cell phone…. Rav said, just give a dollar. Then I realized why the Rav always gets a stack of money out of the table for such cases…

    #1992689
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ, how many times have you ridden the NYC subway?

    #1992692
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    The gemara in kesuvos 68 says that we should have gratitude to the remaim, the fraudsters, because if not for them we’d have to give everyone indiscriminately without checking, and if we didn’t we’d be sinning every day

    Imagine being grateful for thieves!

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