December 22, 2010 12:21 am at 12:21 am #593630
What does the oilum think, Is there any more amaylus/hurivanya (schar) by learning from a hebrew artscroll gemorah, rather than an english one?December 22, 2010 2:38 am at 2:38 am #720348Trying my bestMember
There is more schar from learning with a pashut gemorah without the teitch.December 22, 2010 2:42 am at 2:42 am #720349
If you are not totally fluent in both Aramaic and Hebrew, you might learn better with the English translation. Furthermore, Artscroll’s footnotes are outstanding.December 22, 2010 2:44 am at 2:44 am #720350
Trying My Best – I did not ask that, please lets stay on topicDecember 22, 2010 3:57 am at 3:57 am #720351phillybubbyParticipant
It’s like driving with a GPS. If you use one all the time then when you don’t have it you’re lost. If you can learn gemorah without the Artscroll, you’ll be able to learn almost anything. If you rely on the Artscroll you won’t be able to navigate the gemorah without it.December 22, 2010 4:41 am at 4:41 am #720352
TMB: Proof, please.
real-brisker: amaylus yes, havana lav davka. (How’s that for the shprach?)December 22, 2010 4:52 am at 4:52 am #720353
Using an Artscroll Gemara when I first started learning seriously has helped me to the point where I can now cover 70-80% of the daf without the translation.
Some people would tell me that my learning is now treif because of that (fruit of the poison tree and all that). I don’t listen to them.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 5:05 am at 5:05 am #720354
Itchesrulik – Why is there more amaylus in a hebrew artscroll? (What did you want to know about the shprach?)December 22, 2010 7:26 am at 7:26 am #720355Derech HaMelechMember
I don’t think it makes a difference. I think the reason why it is frowned upon in many Yeshivahs is because like many translations some of the meaning becomes lost and people may rely on it too much and never learn how to learn on their own. So maybe its better to learn inside. Obviously for balabatim who wouldn’t be able to learn without it at all, it is a big boon.
Horaving over a tosfos for an hour trying to get pshat will get a person more schar than that same person running through all the agadita in HaRo’eh in Berachos with an Artscroll in the same time. The more you sweat the more schar you get. Adam ki yamus ba’ohel.December 22, 2010 10:38 am at 10:38 am #720356Lakewood DudeMember
A “real brisker” wouldn’t need one!December 22, 2010 11:10 am at 11:10 am #720357shlomozalmanMember
I was told by those who worked on both that the Hebrew version is superior in both breadth and depth than the English. Another factor is that the English preceded the Hebrew and in general, the second edition is more successful than the first.December 22, 2010 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #720358
Posts like these show how far our society has sunk. We take someone who wants to learn and for whatever reason can’t use the aramaic version by itself (doesn’t know enough aramaic, afraid of misunderstanding or various other reasons). Now we chastise him as “eh its not real learning” or “he gets less schar.” I’m not keeping score, but I would think sincere learning is more important than learning in Aramaic.
I’m glad my Rav agrees.December 22, 2010 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #720359HadaLXTPMember
The Hebrew and English versions are not literal translations of each other. I was learning last night Mesectha Bava Basra with my Chavrusah.He had the Hebrew and I the English version. It came to a p’shat in the Gemara where the English verion didn’t have the answer in the foot notes but, in the Hebrew it did. Maybe, it just was a later version I don’t know. Another thing it pays to learn with someone who knows the Gemara or knows how to learn the Gemara before hand cause they can catch a discrepancy in the Gemara that a novice might not catch. Discrepancy you ask? Occasion and I mean very, extremely occasionally we have found a mistake. Meaning,that one Man De’amar was mixed up with another. Being that I am close to Artscroll I spoke to them about it and they told me that it happens and to report it so, that later versions will have the correction.
Whew. Longest post for me, ever. Have a wonderful day people.December 22, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #720360Shticky GuyParticipant
Amal hatorah, horvanya, adam ki yamus b’ohel etc etc. As some posts above say, en HKBH moneh hadafim elah hashaos. The ground we cover is completely irrelevant. All H’shem counts is the time put in to learning. Anu amelim umkablim sechar… We get sechar only for the amal. How many countless stories are there of gedolim fasting and crying for several days at the kever of a tzadik to help understand a small piece of gemara or a tosfos etc. Therefore yes it is better if one can horova over a piece of gemara rather than to ‘sit with ones feet up’ as it were, and read off the translation, in any language! I challenge anyone to find any rav who disagrees with this. This is the IDEAL method. Of course there IS a place for translations, where necessary. But the less the better!December 22, 2010 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #720361
Hamesivta beats Artscroll. Hands down!!December 22, 2010 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #720362
Horaving over a tosfos for an hour trying to get pshat will get a person more schar than that same person running through all the agadita in HaRo’eh in Berachos with an Artscroll in the same time.
Guess what? Not everyone learns for the schar. I don’t learn the Gemara for the schar of learning… I learn the Gemara because I WANT TO KNOW THE GEMARA. The schar is barely an afterthought by me.
So, I’ll use whatever aides I can find, thank you very much. Don’t like it? Tough.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #720363Avram in MDParticipant
I did not have the privilege of attending a Yeshiva, so I have been one of those who very much wanted to learn but did not have the background to understand even a single line on the page of a Gemara. When I discovered the Artscroll translations, I bought a few to begin learning them. I found them to be extremely helpful; with effort and reading all the commentaries, I felt that I understood what the Gemara was saying. Then I’d go onto the next page. After a while, I felt that there was something lacking in the learning I was doing. I read books describing the beis midrash atmosphere, of pairs engaged in a very lively discussion over the sugyos. I didn’t see any lively discussion in my learning. To me, the learning felt no different from university studies. Open the text, read, understand, move on. And there were no exams or essays to motivate me. A week passes, and more than half of what I learned I forgot.
I wanted to be able to learn Gemara in the original. The way it’s supposed to be done. So I joined a beginner’s Gemara class offered by a local Kollel. What a difference! The amount of Gemara covered in each shiur is far less than what I’d cover in the same amount of time by myself with an Artscroll, but we’d learn and review, and review again. Through the review each piece of the Gemara we learn goes inside me, it becomes mine. I remember it even after weeks have gone by, and I keep thinking about it during the day, even when not in the shiur or actively reviewing. It is such a different experience, and I don’t feel I am giving it justice with this description. IY”H I will continue to progress and learn and gain an ability to learn Gemara independently.
I do think the Artscroll has its place. If I didn’t have access to a shiur with a rav who knows Gemara, then the Artscroll would help me to ensure I wasn’t completely off the wall. But it’s definitely no replacement for the beis midrash style learning and the review. I think that’s why you might hear people “knocking it”. It’s not a criticism of the learning of people who don’t know Aramaic. I am one of those people (hopefully I won’t be in the near future!), and the rav teaching the shiur told me how valuable the learning we’re doing is. It’s a criticism of using the Artscroll as a “cheat sheet” rather than parsing the Gemara – in a beginner’s shiur even, if need be.
All that said, another person might be able to get that kind of learning from the Artscroll. A talented person may be able to retain what he learns and even learn Hebrew and Aramaic from the Artscroll. For me, however, I really needed a straight Gemara, a rav, a shiur, and a beis midrash.December 22, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #720364
midwesterner – Why does Hamesivta beat artscroll? They are both transelators?December 22, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #720365
SJS – Who said that one should not use artscroll if you cant figure out what a word means? It’s pushet that one gets more schar for the more hurivanya/sweat that he puts into his learning. No one is saying if you cant understand the transalation of a word that you should check it up in artscroll.December 22, 2010 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #720366
Avram In MD – Very well said!December 22, 2010 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #720367
Wolf – Why don’t you learn for schar?December 22, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #720368
Is there any more amaylus/hurivanya (schar) by learning from a hebrew artscroll gemorah, rather than an english one?
By asking this question, and the subsequent answers, its saying if you learn from an english Artscroll, you are not getting as much schar.
Now granted, if you are using it as a tool to be lazy, you are probably NOT getting as much schar as someone toiling over it. But you can toil over the english text (slightly differently) than the aramaic.
We don’t judge how much schar a person gets from learning either way.
I would also gather that the English artscroll editions have helped many, many more people pick up a gemara. Many people don’t have the skills, even after attending yeshiva and this gives them a venue to study gemara.December 22, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #720369
Wolf – Why don’t you learn for schar?
Because it’s not my primary motivation. My primary motivation for learning anything is to know it. It’s just the way I’m wired. When I do a mitzvah, my primary motivation is to do the mitzvah for the sake of doing it — not for any reward I may or may not receive for it.
I’m sorry if that upsets anyone or if anyone views it as heretical.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #720370YW Moderator-80Member
hamisivta isnt necessarily better at what it does than artscroll at what IT does, but hamisivta has SO MUCH more than artscrollDecember 22, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #720371HadaLXTPMember
When I do a mitzvah, my primary motivation is to do the mitzvah for the sake of doing it — not for any reward I may or may not receive for it.
I completely agree.December 22, 2010 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #720372
I also agree with Wolf on schar.December 22, 2010 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #720373
Wolf – Do you not do mitzvos so you should get a bigger chelek in oilum habba? So than why do you do it. What do you mean you do mitzvos or the sake of doing mitzvos?December 22, 2010 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #720374
Mod 80 – True, But it also takes away more hurivanya/amaylus.December 22, 2010 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #720375
SJS – My question regarding english over hebrew is, because when reading english it seems to be more reading than learning. If you know what I mean.December 22, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #720376Shticky GuyParticipant
Wolf: The main difference between Torah and lehavdil other studies is that Torah is NOT simply accumilating knowledge like all other topics. But if you say that your primary motivation for learning anything is to know it then you’ve missed the crux of the difference!!! Your job isnt to know it but to spend as much time as poss doing ratzon haboreiDecember 22, 2010 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #720377
To the Wolf: Avos 1:3; Antignos Ish Socho . . . Al tihyu ka’avadim hameshamshim es harav al menas lekabel pras, ela hevu ka’avadim hameshmshim es harav shelo al menas lekabel pras . . . .
And to the esteemed Moderator 80: What does the Artscroll Hebrew do that is different than Hamesivta? My opinion is that lashon in the tietch flows smoother in the Hamesivta than the Artscroll Hebrew. But I understand that is a matter of taste. As you mention, There is soooo much more packed into the Mesivta. But even without flipping to the back sections, aren’t the Mesivta and Artscroll Hebrew attempting to do the same thing?December 22, 2010 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #720378
real-brisker, if you have the ability to learn in the Aramaic and just reference the Artscroll when you are having difficulty, that is definitely preferable.
That’s really true of any “literature” (and no, I am not really comparing Torah to regular literature) – its best read in its original language to avoid mistranslations and misunderstandings. But I wouldn’t read Dante’s Inferno in Italian because I am not fluent enough to grasp it, likewise, a person who can’t learn gemara in Aramaic without misunderstanding it should use whatever aids he can.
Don’t count schar really…count the effort you put in to truly learn something.December 22, 2010 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #720379
midwestern- Its more then tiech they throw i havana too.December 22, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #720380
Do you not do mitzvos so you should get a bigger chelek in oilum habba? So than why do you do it. What do you mean you do mitzvos or the sake of doing mitzvos?
No, I do not do mitzvos for the sake of getting a bigger chelek in Olam HaBah (remember — I don’t have one anyway — I don’t want to argue this point here — just take it for the sake of argument that I don’t).
I do them because I beleive that God commanded us to do them and they are the right thing to do.
So I daven because God commanded me to and because it’s the right thing to do.
I learn because God commanded me to and because it’s the right thing to do.
I help people with strollers up and down subway stairs because God commanded me to and because it’s the right thing to do.
And I can go on and on. That’s my approach. I have enough to worry about in Olam HaZeh. I have to do what is right here in this world. I don’t worry about Olam HaBah — why worry about things you can’t do anything about? I do what’s right here — HKBH alone will decide what happens to me in the next world. My mission is to focus on doing good here — not selfishly building up the best reward for me on the other side.
Let me ask you this — are you so rewards-oriented that you wouldn’t do the right thing without a reward? Let’s use the last example I mentioned:
Let’s say you saw a woman struggling to get a stroller down the subway steps. And let’s say, hypothetically, that you knew there would be no extra reward in Olam HaBah for helping her out. Would you still refuse to do so? Or would you help her out because it’s a kindness to do so and it’s just simply the right thing — reward or no?
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #720381
Your job isnt to know it but to spend as much time as poss doing ratzon haborei
And how do you know the ratzon HaBorei? By learning about the mitzvos and the proper way to perform them.
Sure, I could spend a year learning four blatt gemara with all the meforshim. But that leaves me ignorant of everything else I need to do. True, Torah study may be an end in and of itself — but it’s not purely that — it is also a means to a different end — the practice of Halacha — and I have to consider that end as well. I don’t have the time to spend a year covering 4 blatt of gemara — there’s too much else out there to learn. Perhaps others can be content to spend a year to learn every single tiny detail about one narrow topic — but not me.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #720382
To the Wolf: Avos 1:3; Antignos Ish Socho . . . Al tihyu ka’avadim hameshamshim es harav al menas lekabel pras, ela hevu ka’avadim hameshmshim es harav shelo al menas lekabel pras . . . .
I’m confused. Are you bringing this as a support for me or to dispute me? The mishna you quoted supports my position.
The WolfDecember 22, 2010 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #720383Derech HaMelechMember
I think the Vilna Gaon learns limud Torah lismha to mean lishem haTorah, ie for yidiyos haTorah.
The gemarah in kidushin, pirkei avos and if I remember correctly the lishem yichud of the yesod v’shorech ha’avodah suggests that ones kavanah to learn should be for the sake of knowing what to do.
it would only be more like reading depending on your fluency in hebrew/english. I have difficulty believing that time spent trying to teitch a modern hebrew word would be counted as limud Torah and not limud lashon or something.
Also, what is Mesivta? Is it like a Dvar Yakov type of sefer or just competition for Artscroll?December 22, 2010 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #720384
real brisker: There is more for a non-native Hebrew speaker there is more amaylus (effort) in learning from the Artscroll Hebrew edition than the English one. Regarding schar, I had to literally LOL when I saw your comment asking why Wolf doesn’t learn for schar. The crux of Chabad’s “thing” with the litvisher is that Lubavitchers believe that it is not only not the highest madrega, but actually *wrong* to do mitzvos for schar. I realize that Wolf is no kind of a Lubavitcher, but it was kind of funny to see a “real brisker” validate the Lubavitcher stereotype of a misnaged.December 22, 2010 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #720385
“Do you not do mitzvos so you should get a bigger chelek in oilum habba? So than why do you do it. “
I do mitzvot because my Creator commanded me to do them. Is there a problem with that?December 22, 2010 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #720386popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think I’m with Wolf.
Particularly with bein odom lachaveiro’s where the purpose of the mitzva is to have that feeling.
If you visit a sick person to get a mitzva, you are not doing chessed, you are taking advantage of him. Chessed is when you want to help the person.December 22, 2010 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #720387
Wolf: The intent was support.
Brisker: I know what the Mesivta does. I spend a very lot of time with it. I was just commenting on where it goes head to head with Artscroll, in the language on the top of the page, the flow of the lashon feels a bit more like the way my brain works. As opposed to Artscroll, which reads a bit more stiff.
I’m not putting down Artscroll at all. Chas Veshalom! I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours with their nusach as well. Just that to my taste, Mesivta is smoother. And that’s before the back sections. Once you add those, then Mesivta is the undisputed king! Now if they could only get the new chalakim in the Midwest before the daf gets there. When a sefer works for 20 days, and it comes 4-5 days late, it can be frustrating. 🙁December 22, 2010 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #720388blueprintsParticipant
as a rebbe of mine said: the artscroll is a crutch (you can come to depend on it to often)
but if you found it necessary then definately use the hebrew first the english for sure is to easy to look up pshat and if the hebrew helps kol hakavodDecember 22, 2010 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #720389Trying my bestMember
Derech HaMelech: Schar for the effort (which he will get) wouldn’t make a difference if the Hebrew word was “modern” or not.December 23, 2010 12:12 am at 12:12 am #720390
Wolf – of course I would do someone a favor if no schar was granted, however my point is – If you have an option of 2 mitzvos, and one is a greater schar than the other, why not do the one that will recive more schar?December 23, 2010 12:13 am at 12:13 am #720391
itchesrulik – why is there more amaylus with the hebrew?December 23, 2010 12:52 am at 12:52 am #720392popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I see imagine a certain advantage with the Hebrew that it forces you to slow down and think about it as you translate.December 23, 2010 1:14 am at 1:14 am #720393oomisParticipant
There is a greater mitzvah to learn in a language in which you truly can understand what you are learning. You can be just as amayl B’Torah when you read Artscroll Gemarahs in English, especially if you are not familiar with Hebrew or Aramaic. If you read in Hebrew, thinking you are a big shot, but don’t really understand the nuances of the language, what are you really learning? Isn’t the object of learning to actually LEARN????? That’s why IMO there is no purpose to learning in Yiddish nowadays, unless Yiddish is your familiar language (which it still is for many). Certainly there is no difference between learning in Yiddish or English, in this day and age. Torah was taitched in Yiddish because decades ago THAT was the language common to most Jews. I doubt most Rabbonim were concerned about that not being sufficient AMAYLUS.December 23, 2010 2:01 am at 2:01 am #720394
If you have an option of 2 mitzvos, and one is a greater schar than the other, why not do the one that will recive more schar?
You’re assuming all other things are equal. They are not. In one scenario, I actually know the gemara. In the other one I don’t.
The WolfDecember 23, 2010 2:45 am at 2:45 am #720395
pba – i guess in israel they should learn from english artscroll!December 23, 2010 4:21 am at 4:21 am #720396
Brisker: Sorry, thought I explained that. Amaylus literally means hard work or toil. It is much harder for a native English speaker to use a Hebrew Artscroll than an English one. Whether an English speaker should use a Hebrew artscroll for that reason is debatable. I would personally think it’s not real amaylus batorah, but merely making it harder on yourself for no reason, but you can’t deny that the English speaker is being amel more than if he were to learn it in English.
ps: I actually know someone who used a Hebrew artscroll rather than English in Mesivta for that reason. Thank God, he can now learn just fine without one.
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