Asara B'Teves on a Friday?!

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  • #593192
    L613
    Member

    I never heard of such a thing! When was the last time this happened? How is this possible?

    #993837
    deiyezooger
    Member

    When Rosh Hasana is on a Thursday then Asara b’teives will usealy be on a Thursday too, however if Cheshvan and Kisleiv are both 30 days like this year then Asaras B’teives will be on a friday.

    #993838
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Our calender is not so much a calender, as a set of rules which determine every year whether it should be a leap year and whether cheshvan and kislev should be 29 or 30 days.

    There is no rule that asara bteves cannot be on friday, and none of the other rules affect it either.

    Yom kippur cannot be on friday because we don’t want two days in a row of absolutely no melacha, hence we say that rosh hashana cannot fall on Wednesday. The other fast days also cannot fall on friday, because the other rules make it impossible.

    Asara bteves on friday happens fairly often. Much more often than Birchas hachama.

    #993839
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I remember it happening about 10-15 years ago.

    It happens because 10 Teves is the only fast day that can fall out on a Friday. The calendar is jury-rigged to prevent Yom Kippur from falling out on a Friday. The others aren’t a matter of jury-rigging — they just don’t fall out on those dates.

    The Wolf

    #993840
    artchill
    Participant

    Last time was January 3, 2001.

    It is the only fast day where one makes Kiddush to break their fast.

    Nice trivia question!!

    #993841
    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    Just be happy you are not in Melbourne, Australia.

    Licht that night there is at 8:20 p.m.!

    Of course in London it’s at 3:34 p.m.!

    #993842
    BP Zaideh
    Member

    Does anyone know which years this was 2 & 3 times back.

    An event which I am trying to date happened that day.

    #993843
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    As long as we’re on this, it should also be noted that there will be no 10 Teves in 2011.

    The Wolf

    #993844
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As long as we’re on this, it should also be noted that there will be no 10 Teves in 2011.

    Nor a February 29.

    #993845
    deiyezooger
    Member

    It happened in 5754 (dont know if it was Dec.1993 or Jan. 1994

    #993846
    BP Zaideh
    Member

    Thanks How about the one before that one. The event I am trying to date was more than 17 years ago

    Tit for tat if you ever need to convert dates

    http://www.chabad.org/calendar/default-response_cdo/civil_month/1/civil_day//civil_year//cType/2/jewish_month/10/jewish_day/10/jewish_year/5754/submit1/GO%C2%A0%C2%BB

    #993847
    deiyezooger
    Member

    The ones before were 5744, 5737, 5734, 5733, 5727, 5717, 5710, 5706, 5703,

    #993848
    REALIST
    Member

    EXACTLY 10 YEARS AGO.

    #993849
    Yanky55
    Member

    What is also pretty rare (like this year) is saying “v’sayn bracha” on Chanukah….

    #993850
    zaidy78
    Participant

    To the Wolf:

    You wrote:

    “The calendar is jury-rigged to prevent Yom Kippur from falling out on a Friday.”

    Actually in a recent artical (Mishpacha Kulmas) it said that the rules of LO ADO ROSH is to prevent Yom Kippur from falling on Friday and Sunday so that there wouldn’t be two days of (total) issur malacha in a row, and also that HaShana Rabba should not fall on Shabbos.

    #993851
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Actually in a recent artical (Mishpacha Kulmas) it said that the rules of LO ADO ROSH is to prevent Yom Kippur from falling on Friday and Sunday so that there wouldn’t be two days of (total) issur malacha in a row, and also that HaShana Rabba should not fall on Shabbos.

    Yes, I knew that the calendar is also jury-rigged to prevent a Yom Kippur Sunday and a Hoshanna Rabba Shabbos. I specifically only mentioned Yom Kippur and Friday because the thread is about fast days on Friday.

    The Wolf

    #993852
    Yanky55
    Member

    The reason Yom Kippur cannot fall out on Friday or Sunday is because then there would be 2 days in a row that a niftar could not be buried which would not be kavod hameis. It has nothing to do with “total issur milacha”. We could live 2 days with total issur milacha if we had to….

    #993853
    me1234
    Member

    Actually, my son who is almost 10 years old. was born on 3 Teves (last day of Chanuka that year), and had his Bris on Asara B’Teves which was on a Friday. So we had the actual Bris in the morning, and the Seuda was on Friday night.

    #993854
    deiyezooger
    Member

    What is also pretty rare (like this year) is saying “v’sayn bracha” on Chanukah….

    That happens every leap year.

    #993855
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yanky,

    Were that the issue, would there not be a problem with *any* Yom Tov falling on Friday or Sunday. After all, one is not allowed to bury a body on Yom Tov* either.

    We could live 2 days with total issur milacha if we had to….

    Do you really think you could have gone two days without cooking in a world without refrigerators, supermarkets and the like? I’m not so certain.

    The Wolf

    * Of course, we’re talking about the first day of Yom Tov only.

    #993856
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yanky:

    Admitted, I was getting my information from the kolmus article which says the reason is so we should not have the stringency of shabbos two days in a row.

    I suppose you are basing yourself on gemara Rosh Hashana 20a. The gemara relates a machlokes why they used to sometimes make a 30 day elul. One reason is so they shouldn’t leave bodies unburied for two days, and the other is so the vegetable shouldn’t wilt.

    Accordingly, chazal did care about having multiple days in a row with an issur melacha. Indeed, our religion is not the uncaring religion you make it out to be.

    #993857
    on the mark
    Member

    The sefer toras moshe al hatorah from the chassam sofer page 346 brings from the avudraham that even if asara bteves falls out on Shabbos u would have to fast. He explains the reason: because every yr on asara bteves the bes din shel ma’ala contemplates whether there will be a churban hamikdash that year or whether there will be a binyan bais hamikdash. Therefore, just like a person has to fast for a taanis chalom even on shabbos becuase it is a tzara that he wants to be mevatel, so too fasting on asara bteves is not a fast for a prior tzara but rather a fast to avoid any future tzaros. That is why we fast asara bteves even on shabbos and erev shabbos.

    #993858
    TJ
    Member

    “That is why we fast asara bteves even on shabbos…”

    There is actually a machlokes rishonim about this case, though our calendar is arranged so it never happens.

    #993859
    #993860
    yaff80
    Participant

    Ainohnmilvado:

    In the Uk, not only the fast ends early, it starts around 6.15am so theoretically one could have an early breakfast and a late lunch…… 🙂

    My guess is that in Melbourne they probably have a similar situaution for 17th Tammuz and 9th Av?

    #993861
    147
    Participant

    When Rosh Hasana is on a Thursday then Asara b’teives will usealy be on a Thursday too, however if Cheshvan and Kisleiv are both 30 days like this year then Asaras B’teives will be on a friday. This is correct with Assoro b’Teves coming out on Friday Erev vaYechi; But this also transpires when Rosh haShono is on a Shabbos and both Cheshvon & Kisslev are 29 days, then Assoro b’Teves will also be on a Friday, but Friday Erev vaYigash.

    Hence Assoro b’Teves comes out on a Friday approximately 20% of years.

    In 10 & 11 years time {5784 & 5785}, will be 1st time in 51 years, that Assoro b’Teves is 2 years running on a Friday. That last happened 51 years before this upcoming occurrence, and will again happen 47 years after that.

    What is also pretty rare (like this year) is saying “v’sayn bracha” on Chanukah….That happens every leap year.

    on 1st nite of Chanukah and even then, not all Hebrew leap years. But by 7th nite of Chanukah, much rarer. But what is even rarer and in fact the rarest of all Amidas, is what happened on 7th nite of Chanukah 1994, having Atto Chonantonu, veSen Berocho, Yaaleh veYovo & Al haNissim all combined in the same Amidah, something which often only transpires once every 95 years, so even rarer than Birkas haChamo or Assoro b’Teves 2 years running on a Friday.

    In the UK, not only the fast ends early, it starts around 6.15am However in Paris which has Savings time in winter & double savings time in summer as do all European countries except UK & Ireland, Assoro b’Teves commences just before 7AM.

    #993862

    Thank you, 147. I am always fascinated by your calendar facts.

    Someone told me that next year Asarah b’Teves is also in Friday. I think he assumed that because the Yomim Tovim fall on the same days of the week. You’re saying that Asarah b’Teves is different. Correct?

    Edit: There will be no Asarah b’Teves next year. 😉

    (For those who find interest in the correlation between our calendar and the secular calendar, the next Asarah b’Teves, which is on a Thursday, is Jan 1.)

    #993863

    Asarah B’teves is not on Friday next year. Nor is it on Friday for the 2 or three years after that. Beyond that I don’t know because my 120 year calendar ends.

    #993864
    a mirrer
    Participant

    Just for the record three years ago it was also on a friday

    #993865
    147
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma:- Next time Assoro b’Teves on Friday in 7 years time. Then in 10 & 11 years time.

    Commencing in 13 years, shall be Assoro b’Teves 6 times in 8 years on a Sunday.

    #993866
    yehudayona
    Participant

    The next time Asara B’Teves falls on a Friday is December 25, 2020. So while the goyim are getting up early to see what’s under the tree, I’ll be getting up early so I can eat before the fast begins.

    #993867
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Interestingly next year’s Thursday is even rarer day for Asarah beteves rarer still is wednesday. In fact Asarah beteves on Wed is the rarest calendar occurance only occurs only about once in 25 years on average. Whereas ASarah beteves on Friday occurs about once in five years

    #993868

    Yehudayona, I certainly hope that by then, we won’t be fasting on Asarah b’Teves, and that “yakiru v’yeidu kol yoshvei tevel…”.

    #993869
    147
    Participant

    ubiquitin: Correct but Assoro b’Teves on Thursday is only very fractionally rarer than on Friday, maybe 2 times or so less frequent than on a Friday per century.

    Of the 14 Jewsih calendar Keviusim:- 4 of them result in Assoro b’Teves on Sunday, Tuesday & Friday respectively, but only 1 Kevius results in Assoro b’Teves on Thursday & Wednesday respectively. But the 1 Kevius resulting with Assoro b’Teves on Thursday, is by far the most frequent of the 14 Keviusim on the Jewish calendar:- “HKZ” Rosh haShono on Thursday followed by Kesidron followed by Pesach on Shabbos.

    Daas Yochid:- I second thy motion.

    #993870
    myappel
    Member

    By the way, the phenomenon of having most of the calendar falling on the same days of the week for subsequent years occurs when between the two years in question MarCheshvan and Kislev have 30 days each, and there is an extra Adar. That results in a span of 385 days between the dates, which is exactly 55 weeks. The other possibilities of # of days (353, 354, 355, 383, 384) are not divisible by 7 (so are not complete weeks).

    The above only applies to the part of the calendar that is a constant number of days (between 1 Adar or Adar Sheni and 29 MarCheshvan).

    Until this discussion, I never knew that Asara bTevet could be on Friday two days in a row. I think the only way is if in the first year, Rosh Hashana is on Shabbos in a leap year with 383 days, and the second year Rosh Hashana is on Thursday in a regular year of 355 days.

    More generally, I never considered how it might work out to have two years in a row for the non-constant parts of the year(Kislev, and Tevet + Shvat). As somewhat of a calendar enthusiast (not an expert!) I might try working that out myself (though I am sure that the experts already have that at their fingertips).

    #993871
    notasheep
    Member

    mirrer, thanks for pointing that out. I remember it well because I found out I was expecting on a friday asara b’teves, three years ago. And I still had to fast.

    #993872

    The OP was actually written three years ago. 🙂

    #993873
    147
    Participant

    Until this discussion, I never knew that Asara bTevet could be on Friday two days in a row. I think the only way is if in the first year, Rosh Hashana is on Shabbos in a leap year with 383 days, and the second year Rosh Hashana is on Thursday in a regular year of 355 days.

    myappel:- Not 2 days in a row, but 2 years in a row. But yes myapel, the 2 types of years which you described was absolutely on the ball & correct.

    Any time that Assoro b’Teves is 2 years running on a Friday, the Assoro b’Teves immediately preceding them as well as the one immediately following them are both on a Tuesday.

    #993874
    notasheep
    Member

    I only just noticed that 🙂

    #993875
    myappel
    Member

    147: Oops, yes of course I meant “years” not “days”.

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