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What life circumstances, questions or other activities is it appropriate for a Jew to ask his Rov what to do, which are situations that isn’t very obvious to everyone that the Rov is the correct person to seek guidance from?
Deciding whether or not you’ll be participating in a clinical trial
The “ask your LOR” response is something I’m still trying to understand.
For personal issues (marriage, family, employment, etc.) it makes sense. It also makes sense for matters of halachah that can vary from place to place (kosher food standards, validity of an eruv, etc.).
But why should one have to ask his LOR whether a particular kind of tallis katan is acceptable? Why can’t a minimal standard be generally accepted by Jews everywhere?
AYLOR
DovidBT: Since there are certain materials that are used today that were not used 100 years ago and are questionable to some authorities if they require tzitzis or not. We have minimum standards….everyone agrees that wool begadim need tzitzes. Many stores sell “mesh” tzitzes. Not everyone agrees that this type of beged requires tzitzes….hence ask your LOR whether he allows it or not.
There is no question that is too small or too big for your LOR unless he tells you to otherwise. Many years ago, one of my children had a deep cut that a doctor in shul determined that stitches were required. I asked the Rav about walking to the hospital or being driven by a non-jew. His answer to me was you know the halachah. My response was that I was asking him as he was the LOR and had smicha and was able to pasken for me.
“But why should one have to ask his LOR whether a particular kind of tallis katan is acceptable? Why can’t a minimal standard be generally accepted by Jews everywhere?”
Because this is a matter of debate between the poskim (e.g. The Mishnah Berurah and the Chazon Ish). Also, since there exists mass produced taleisim (gadol and koton) whose products do not meet even the basic standards (placement of the holes, sqaureness of the corners, size of the shoulders versus the hole, etc.Perhaps yidden need to setp back, take responsibility for their own lives and seek advice from whoever is best qualified to offer such help. In many cases involving halacaha, a rav may be well-positioned to provide needed guidance but on most matters of personal well being, family relationships, financial health, jobs and education, the decision will go well beyond Halacha and the advice or real experts in the subject matter should be relied upon.
Isn’t the phrase usually seen or heard in the context of a halacha shiur, warning people not
to attempt to practice based on the shiur but instead to ask a rav regarding such matters?“Not everyone agrees that this type of beged requires tzitzes….hence ask your LOR whether he allows it or not.”
“Because this is a matter of debate between the poskim (e.g. The Mishnah Berurah and the Chazon Ish).”
That’s what bothers me. These LOR’s are supposed to be wise. Why can’t they collaborate and come up with a common standard? Wouldn’t that promote unity among Jews? Is there a reason why there are so many groups of observant Jews who follow different practices?
Why would a rav pasken against his mesorah or his own halachic conclusion just because a different rav disagrees?
“Why would a rav pasken against his mesorah or his own halachic conclusion just because a different rav disagrees?”
Why can’t Rav A and Rav B discuss their differences and find a common halachic conclusion that’s mutually acceptable?
DovidBT: Why can’t Rav A and Rav B discuss their differences and find a common halachic conclusion that’s mutually acceptable?
Because that is not the way halachah is decided when their is a machlokes between gedolim of the previous generation.
Let’s use the following example. Friday night, do you stand or sit for kiddush? See the Aruch Hashulchan Orech Chaim 271:24 .The Rambam holds one sits. The Arizal holds one stands.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9101&st=&pgnum=94
The Shulchan Aruch 271:10 states that “V’OMER VAYECHULU MEUMAD VACHAR KACH OMER BOREI PRI HAGAFEN VACHAR KACH KIDDUSH. The RAMAH adds VEYACHOL LA’AMOD BSHAS KIDDUSH VEYOSER TOV LEYASHEIV
.http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49625&st=&pgnum=94
So if you ask two LOR’s what to do, you will probably get two different answers. According to you, the two should get together and to a conclusion that is mutually acceptable. That though is not the case.I don’t have to agree with the decision of another LOR if he is basing his psak on the Ramah while the other LOR follows the Arizal.
DovidBT,
That’s what bothers me. These LOR’s are supposed to be wise.
Why does the fact that poskim differ reflect on their wisdom in any way?
Why can’t they collaborate and come up with a common standard? Wouldn’t that promote unity among Jews?
Unity is nice and desirable, but our primary purpose here is fealty to Hashem and is Torah. We see in this week’s parsha the results of putting the ideal of unity above our service to Hashem: the tower of Bavel. If a rav has a mesora in halacha, it is wrong for him to compromise it for the sake of “unity”. True unity comes through respect for our diverse mesoros, not melting them into a single pot.
Is there a reason why there are so many groups of observant Jews who follow different practices?
Because we have been in galus with no Sanhedrin, king, judge, prophet, or kohen for 2000 years. All we have is our Torah and our mesora, and every Jew must keep what he has received to the best of his ability. Yes there are differences, but take a step back and compare our differences with the schisms within Christianity and Islam, who have not experienced anything like what we’ve experienced, and you’ll see that the observant Jewish world is actually quite united in belief and practice.
DovidBT,
Your sentiment is part of the reason we have the bracha “hashiva shofeteinu k’varishona” in our shemona esrei, but in the absence of the centralized halachic authority that will iy”H be restored when Moshiach comes, the LOR sticking to the mesora he received from his rebbe is doing the right thing. Even though it may be different from the mesora of the rav down the street.
beautiful, beautiful answer. thanks
Going to your LOR for things like marriage and career should be done sigh caution. Unless your Rabbi also happens to be n expert career coach and family therapist. How many years at did this rabbi spend becoming an expert in so many fields and e be n better than those who focused their energy on one area. The rabbi is one part of the picture but he isn’t a doctor a lawyer accountant or financial advisor.
Gadolhadorah,
Perhaps yidden need to setp back, take responsibility for their own lives and seek advice from whoever is best qualified to offer such help.
Who says “yidden” don’t?
In many cases involving halacaha, a rav may be well-positioned to provide needed guidance
The hedging here sounds a bit strange. If a rav is not best suited for halachic shailos, then who would be?
but on most matters of personal well being, family relationships, financial health, jobs and education, the decision will go well beyond Halacha and the advice or real experts in the subject matter should be relied upon.
B”H, I have a close relationship with my rav, and seek his counsel on a wide range of issues that affect me and my family. This has never prevented me from also utilizing the services of whatever expert is best positioned to deal with the situation at hand. Rather, it enhances my approach to the situation by adding a perspective grounded in Torah. Not to mention that most things that happen in life do end up having halachic ramifications.
TO JJ2020…well said…a big part of the process of maturing in our emunah and hashkafah, we need to develop the ability to know when to rely on the advice of a rav and when that advice needs to be supplemented with advice from subject matter experts or to rely entirely on those experts. In some cases, your local rav may be able to refer you to such an outside expert from prior experience. While there may be some inmature yungerleit who consult with their rebbe about whether they need to make an “asher yatzar”, as they mature, there is hopefully a transition in knowing what questions truly warrant input from a rav and when outside expertise is needed and appropriate.
Joseph,
What life circumstances, questions or other activities is it appropriate for a Jew to ask his Rov what to do,
Anything where you desire a Torah perspective.
which are situations that isn’t very obvious to everyone that the Rov is the correct person to seek guidance from?
Giving tzedaka.
“That’s what bothers me. These LOR’s are supposed to be wise. Why can’t they collaborate and come up with a common standard? Wouldn’t that promote unity among Jews? Is there a reason why there are so many groups of observant Jews who follow different practices?”
Yours is a very good question, and deserves appreciation; Why machlokes in halachah seems to be built into our system of mesorah.
1) HaShem not only gave us His Torah and mitzvos to reveal His ratzon in this world and to bring us to the next world perfected and ready/worthy of enjoying His Shechinah, but He also gave us Power of Attorney, so to speak, in this revelation process. This is referred to as Torah of the m’kabeil. Torah reveals His kovod. The more Torah, the more kovod. Machlokes between Gedolei Torah – Tana’im, Amora’im, Geonim, Rishonim, Achronim, Poskei Ha’dor – increase Torah, and therefore His Kovod.
2) The Torah is for all Jews. Not all Jews’ needs, level of service, availability of needed items, social environment, etc. are the same. The Torah still needs to be for them. It is for this reason that machlokes between poskim of different communities and/or countries differ from each other. Some countries did not change into Shabbos clothing for Shabbos Chazon (during the 9 days), while others did/do. It has been explained that those who did not, lived in countries with vibrant economies; it was Shabbosdik all week. They did not change in order to feel the 9 days. Those who did change for Shabbos Chazon, livedbin poor countries. They changed in order to feel Shabbos (it was 9 days all year for them). Is this a a machlokes?
Rav Gustman ztzvk”l was fond of saying he first evaluates the sho’el (the one asking the Rabbi a question), then he evaluates the question. Does this mean there is discord, disagreement, many Torahs? Absolutely not. It means the Torah has a perfect road for everyone to get to their Olam Ha’ba.
3) Related: A great loss of money is sometimes a valid reason for a lenient p’sak. A wealthy person may not “deserve” such a ruling. Is the Rav who gave the lenient p’sak to his poor congregant out of sync with the Rav who ruled strictly for his wealthy mispallel? Should the two Rabbis have gotten together to reach a compromise so neither member should have received the proper ruling?This is why it is so important that everyone have a close relationship with a Rav who knows him/her, their background, goals, family, health and financial situation, etc. This way everyone has a good chance of keeping the entire Torah properly and earning their deserved place in Olam Ha’ba.
I would add that there is much more to be said on this important topic, and that perhaps even what I wrote above is not the perfect answer for everyone.
To Avram
That was my point…in many cases, especially for younger men and women, a Rav/Rebbitzen may be the best person to START with since he/she has probably had to deal with just about any problem you may be confronted with and will have a network of contacts in subject matter fields (medicine, law, finance, employment etc.) which will provide you with a good start…certainly a much better referral service than the yellow pages or the internet. However, over time and with maturity, we learn to do our own due diligence and can bypass the Rav and seek guidance directly from subject matter experts. Obviously, some issues with have some aspect of halacha which might usefully involve a parallel consultation with your LRP.
Gadolhadorah,
That was my point…
The point was well hidden I guess…
However, over time and with maturity, we learn to do our own due diligence and can bypass the Rav and seek guidance directly from subject matter experts.
Why would we want to “bypass” our rav? I don’t see that as a good thing. Note that I don’t mean one should impose excessively on the rav’s time or discuss the same things repeatedly. But the goal of Judaism is not to somehow “graduate” from needing a rav so you can do whatever looks good in your own eyes.
Obviously, some issues with have some aspect of halacha which might usefully involve a parallel consultation with your LRP.
I am curious as to why when discussing going to a rav, you see a need to throw in a number of hedging words: may, might, etc., but when discussing seeing other professionals you exhibit much more certainty: [their advice] should be replied upon.
So if someone wants to learn about taxes he should get Simcha? Ugh wants to invest in real-estate he should become Rabbi? After all they know best forget me school learn basar vchalav and heal the sick.
There are frum experts in all these areas to seek guidance from. Pal who learned in kollel for years too.
The prescriptive “should” applies equally to adhering the advice of my rav when opining on matters of halacha and adhering to the advice of a respected physician on matters of medical care etc….the point is obvious. I don’t ask my doctor to paskan on arba minim nor do I ask my rav to paskin on my EKG. I “may” accept the Rav’s advice if he has good eitzah on meditation/relaxation techniques to lower my blood pressure or the name of one of the daveners who might get me in to see a cardiac specialist at Hopkins w/o a 3 month wait.
Just be a rabbi has “dealt ” with an issue doesn’t make him trained or qualified to give good advice. I’ve had plenty of really bad teachers who have been really bad for 20 years. It’s true that a lot of people in others fields lack a Torah perspective which is a problem. It us not easy to get good guidance. You need a good CPA good Dr etc. But thinking your Rabbi who is a human not a navi and probably doesn’t have ruach hakoshesh can some how know more than anyone else in their area of expertise is just foolish. Good Rabbi will admit when he doesn’t know something and send you to people who do know. Be wary of someone who claims be an expert at everything.
A person needed to undergo surgery for a type of cancer. Two surgeons were suggested by his physician and he personally suggested Dr. “A”. The person conferred with an oncologist who told him that he should use Dr. “B” and would never send a patient to Dr. “A”. Not sure what to do he went to Rav Pam and asked which surgeon he should use. Rav Pam’s advice? Since the oncologist sees the patient after surgery he is the judge as to who is the better surgeon. Therefore he advised the person to use Dr. “B”.
JJ2020,
So if someone wants to learn about taxes he should get Simcha? Ugh wants to invest in real-estate he should become Rabbi? After all they know best forget me school learn basar vchalav and heal the sick.
Are you attempting a response to me? If so, I have no idea what it is you are responding to, or what it is you are trying to say.
There are frum experts in all these areas to seek guidance from. Pal who learned in kollel for years too.
So?
Gadolhadorah,
The prescriptive “should” applies equally to adhering the advice of my rav when opining on matters of halacha and adhering to the advice of a respected physician on matters of medical care etc….
Fine – so why didn’t you write it that way from the get go?
the point is obvious.
Those darn Jews who don’t get the point.
I don’t ask my doctor to paskan on arba minim nor do I ask my rav to paskin on my EKG.
Straw man. Nobody’s going to his or her rav to get an EKG evaluated (unless the rav happens to be a cardiologist). Jews do go to the rav for shailos surrounding a diagnosis. And maybe a bracha for health or a refua.
JJ2020,
Just be a rabbi has “dealt ” with an issue doesn’t make him trained or qualified to give good advice.
So find a rav who you trust.
I’ve had plenty of really bad teachers who have been really bad for 20 years.
A child cannot pick her or her teachers, but an adult does choose his rav. Choose well. It’s part of our responsibilities as Jews.
But thinking your Rabbi who is a human not a navi and probably doesn’t have ruach hakoshesh can some how know more than anyone else in their area of expertise is just foolish.
Who are you arguing with? I haven’t seen that stated anywhere in this thread. Another straw man.
Good Rabbi will admit when he doesn’t know something and send you to people who do know. Be wary of someone who claims be an expert at everything.
See above. You have a responsibility to make for yourself a rav – choose well.
AvraminMD – I was writing in response to Joseph. My point is that different people have different areas of expertise and you should go to the person most qualified in the area you bed guidance in.
My understanding of the concept of Daas Torah is that it is wisdom granting a person more shikul daas than non-talmidei chachamim. So your rav may not know more information than trained professionals, but once he is given the information he can weigh both sides of the issue better than a professional who is not a talmid chacham.
Of course, not every guy with smicha possesses that level of wisdom. A real chacham can also recognize when an issue is out of his league and refer the questioner to a greater talmid chacham.tiawd: “Of course, not every guy with smicha possesses that level of wisdom.”
That is a very important point. The word Rav is very widely-used nowadays and can refer to a very wide range of individuals. So what questions or type of questions a Rav is qualified to answer may depend on the Rav in question.
Some of the posters were making the claim that a Rav is not the best person to ask certain types of questions to. While that may be true, the extent to which it is true would depend on who your Rav is and therefore how much “Daas Torah” he possesses.
Your local Orthodox Rabbi is probably not the Gadol Hador, so there probably are questions that he wouldn’t be qualified to answer, but a Gadol Hador would be.
“Your local Orthodox Rabbi is probably not the GadolHador, so there probably are questions that he wouldn’t be qualified to answer, but a GadolHador would be”
Well stated Lilmod…..I’ll try to answer your questions on any subject….
btw, GH, I’ve been wanting to ask you for a while: Why is your name, “Gadolhadorah”? Shouldn’t it be “Gedolahhador?” Which one is the female – you or the generation?
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