July 1, 2012 3:28 am at 3:28 am #603947I can only tryMember
1) If an auction on eBay (or any other auction site) is scheduled to end on Shabbos, is there any problem or issue with entering a bid (before Shabbos, obviously)?
2) (this question is only applicable if the answer to question #1 is “yes”.) If someone has entered a bid on such an auction and either can’t cancel it or doesn’t realize when it ends until after the fact, is there any problem using the purchased item?
Opinions are of course welcome, but what would really be appreciated is a quote from a rov / posek and/or a source from a sefer.
Thank you.July 1, 2012 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1042169oyveyMember
Opinion: I suspect it is not a problem because the transaction only occurs when you make payment.
On a related note, where can I find a copy of a shtar mechira for a web-based business (where certain transactions for e-products may occur on shabbos)?
I understand the use of a shtar mechira is discouraged (at least in the case of a real business where melocho is being done by worker) but are the other better solutions?July 1, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #1042170oyveyMember
Last question should read “are theRE other better solutions?”July 1, 2012 4:46 am at 4:46 am #1042171CsarMember
B&H Photo disables purchasing on their website during Shabbos.July 1, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1042172July 1, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1042173CsarMember
The reasoning of B&H to disallow purchasing on Shabbos, is tangentially related to the OP’s question.July 1, 2012 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1042174Sam2Participant
Off the top of my head I’d say there’s no problem at all. What would the problem be? (If it actually takes the money straight from your account/credit card as soon as the auction closes then it’s probably not allowed, actually.)July 1, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1042175usa-tralianParticipant
There was a kuntres just put out (I got it here in Israel) and I just saw that it’s available at ihalacha.com so take a look over there at Siman zayin which deals with all kinds of Ebay/ecommerce Shailos. I’m not familiar with the author, but it’s certainly very interesting (and he does quote Mekoros)July 1, 2012 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1042176
If it actually takes the money straight from your account/credit card as soon as the auction closes then it’s probably not allowed, actually.
On Ebay, you have to manually submit your Paypal info for the purchase to be finalized. I also don’t think there’s a problem.July 1, 2012 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1042177147Participant
What is the difference in putting the bid before Shabbos and letting the Pe’uloh go thru on Shabbos? Verses:- Setting the time switch before Shabbos, and letting the Pe’uloh go thru on Shabbos?July 1, 2012 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1042178danielaParticipant
You have to ask your posek, not ours. In regards to avoiding bidding wars and overinflated prices, especially when you can’t submit at the last minute, Gixen might be your friend.July 1, 2012 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1042179
Its not a problem (I sell on eBay and Amazon) its not a Halachic sale as a Halachic sale is money is changed hands and product changes hands which does not occur in Online sales.
Maybe B & H disables their websites, but you cant do that with eBay and AmazonJuly 2, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1042180
What pe’uloh?July 2, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1042181
Maybe B & H disables their websites, but you cant do that with eBay and Amazon
Maybe they do it, because as an obviously frum company, it would be a zilzul of Shabbos not to.July 2, 2012 1:30 am at 1:30 am #1042182pcozMember
I asked Reb Elya Fischer this shaalah and he said he didn’t know, so it;s not a trivial questionJuly 2, 2012 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1042184147Participant
Da’as Yochid:- Pe’uloh is the actual action/deed, such as a winner winning the auction, or the A/C going on or off with the time switch.July 2, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1042185
Does the shaila change if you use sniper software or a sniper website that actually submits your bid to eBay on Shabbos itself?July 2, 2012 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1042186
Pe’uloh is the actual action/deed, such as a winner winning the auction
I thought you might have meant that, but winning an auction isn’t a pe’ulah.July 2, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1042187YatzmichMember
On eBay you can set your auctions to end not on Shabbos and if you’re only offering a buy it now, you can set you your items on vacation settings every Friday.
On Amazon as well, set your account every Friday that your items should NOT be listed for sale.
Do that and you’ll be on the same high madreigah as B & H.July 2, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1042188
Who says he has to or even should? Maybe B&H should because it’s well known that it’s frum owned, but Zahavasdad sells under a neutral name?July 2, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #10421892qwertyParticipant
Who said BH has to disable their shopping cart? From what i understand is that most online retailers only capture the credit card data at checkout but they charge it when the item ships.July 2, 2012 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1042190hello99Participant
I’ve written extensively on the topic in other places. Not long ago, it wasn’t a problem to sell through Amazon etc, even if the sale took place on Shabbos. There is no issue of Melacha, since you are not doing anything, and at least in Chutz l’Aretz it can be assumed the buyer is not Jewish. Nevertheless, there remains the problem of deriving benefit from a transaction conducted on Shabbos. However, since then all of the merchants utilized typical credit card processors, who only process charges 5 days a week, no transfer of funds was ever conducted on Shabbos (though a weekday Yom Tov would be problematic).
Today, most merchants use PayPay or another electronic processor, and even the traditional ones have to compete. This means that an approved merchant receives the funds in his bank account within hours, if not minutes, of the sale. This is not permitted.
While it might theoretically be possible to avoid becoming an “approved” merchant and retain a delay of a couple of days between the transaction and the transfer of funds, it is not practical. Furthermore, Amazon will not allow a merchant to close his store one day every week. If one has minimal volume, he could instruct his program to record all Shabbos orders for manual processing on Sunday, but this is not feasible with a large seller. If one could only use a processor who does not transfer funds on Shabbos there would be a Heter.
The Star-K website used to have a Teshuva from Rav Heinemann permitting ecommerce sites on Shabbos based on 5 day/week processors; when I pointed out to him that this is an achronism, they immediately removed the article from their site.July 2, 2012 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1042191
Owning their own site, why can’t they arrange for no processing to take place on Shabbos?July 2, 2012 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1042192YatzmichMember
I’m not paskening a shailoh or telling anybody what to do, I’m just responding to the following statement from zahavasdad, “Maybe B & H disables their websites, but you cant do that with eBay and Amazon.”
As an aside, anybody who knows anything about the operations at B & H can figure out the high madreigah that they have to be on to totally shut their site to buyers on Saturday. It’s one of the most, if not THE most, popular day for online shopping and B & H does TREMENDOUS volume through their site. For them to just cut it off on Friday at sunset for 25 hours, is an amazingly high madreigah and is a lesson to all.July 2, 2012 11:24 am at 11:24 am #1042194hello99Participant
DY: I can’t speak for B&H. I suspect they were advised or received a Psak to be more MachmirJuly 2, 2012 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #10421952qwertyParticipant
The other possible work around is to get a non Jewish partner for only Shabbos and Yom tov.
But they choose to be Machmir and create a kiddish Hashem.
Maybe that’s why they became so successful.July 2, 2012 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1042196yehudayonaParticipant
The OP was asking about bidding, not selling. Clearly eBay sellers can set up 5-day auctions to avoid the problem. When eBay was young, I asked my LOR about bidding on eBay auctions that end on Shabbos, and he said that since the transaction isn’t finalized until you pay, it wasn’t a problem. This was before sniper sites and software existed, so I don’t know how to answer Shmoel’s question.July 2, 2012 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1042197
Sniping software and websites have been around almost as long as eBay itself. They were already popular, and I was already using them on eBay, in the 1990’s.July 2, 2012 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1042198
DY: I can’t speak for B&H. I suspect they were advised or received a Psak to be more Machmir
Nor can i speak for them, but my conjecture is that they were advised to do so not because of concern for actual masa umatan issues, but for reasons of maris ayin/zilzul Shabbos, as a company which is well known to be owned by Jews.
In the process, they are zoche to make a big kiddush Hashem.
BTW, even if the money is deposited on Shabbos or Yom Tov, what is the issue, since it wasn’t specifically requested? Would I have a similar problem if my bank deposited an interest payment into my account on Shabbos/YT? If the government deposits my tax refund on Shabbos/YT, do I have to give it back (or better yet can I not request it as an automatic deposit, but rather, must ask for a paper check?July 2, 2012 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1042199
On Amazon you only get the money AFTER you ship the item, they hold it in escrow until you ship the item. So you dont actually get the money on Shabbos anyway.
Do you get the money when you claim you shipped it, or when the buyer actually receives it? Or, is there a way for Amazon or Ebay to verify that you’ve actually shipped it?July 2, 2012 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1042200
Most sellers on eBay dont do auctions anymore and actually a 7 day auction could only end on Shabbos if you started it on Shabbos as its exactly 7 days later when it was listed.
What is disturbing here is people are comparing B & H to other sellers and trying to impose a CHUMRA on others when they clearly dont know the Halacha.
Also there is something FBA which is Fulfillment by Amazon where you ship the stuff to Amazon, Amazon sells the stuff, collectes the money and Ship the item and give you the cash. You dont do anything, There is no VACATION setting for this service, the selling is up to Amazon.July 2, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1042201
If one must refuse orders on Shabbos, or chooses to refuse such orders, such as B&H, should they refuse to accept orders when it is Shabbos for the website owners (i.e. in New York by B&H) even though it isn’t Shabbos at the time the customer places his order from Los Angeles? Or should they refuse to accept an order from a customer who places it on Shabbos where he is located, even though it isn’t Shabbos at the merchant’s location?July 2, 2012 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1042202
What if the product being sold is intangible? Such as a software download. Or an e-book. Or information. Or a music download. And the buyer pays for it AND gets it on Shabbos. Assur?July 2, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1042203
On Amazon you get the money when you claim you ship it. If I dont use Amazon Fufillment, I have 48 Business hours to ship it. If I use Amazon Fufillment I get the money when AMAZON ships it.
On eBay for new sellers its up to 21 days to get the money.
The way the know on Ebay is the tracking #, if you are a new seller if you upload to them the tracking # and then can tell when it was delivered. If the buyer leaves Positive feedback then its also assumed the item was delivered as well and you get them moneyJuly 2, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1042204I can only tryMember
Are you asking about a shtar mechira because that would specify when the actual kinyan takes place?
1) Per halacha.
2) Per secular law.
3) As a multi-step process, where even a portion of it occurring on Shabbos could be a problem.
4) Depending on whether both parties are Jewish or not.
That is very much a part of my question(s), and also (if this is a problem) whether a shogeg is allowed to use the purchased item.
Thank you for that link.
If you could post your research and writings without revealing personal info, I, for one, would appreciate it.
Thanks to those who have taken the time to respond on this thread.
This is a real-world shailoh, and discussing it here alerts people to the issue and many facets they may not be aware of.July 2, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1042205
It sounds like the only thing that might be an issue is FBA, depending on the contract.
As far as the seven day listing, the assumption would be that someone who is makpid not to have the sale go through on Shabbos would also not list on Shabbos. 🙂July 2, 2012 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1042206jbaldy22Member
@zahavasdad you dont really get the money then it is held in escrow and then amazon deposits the money – for me its usually within 14 days. this makes it less of problem. i dont think they deposit the money immediately for anyone unless they specifically select to get paid right then manually on each purchase.July 2, 2012 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1042207
Jbdaly is more technically correct. In Paypal and Amazon they actually put the money in your account that you withdraw.
Because I am a long time Amazon seller I can withdraw once a day from Amazon to my bank account.
I assume the money is mine if I can withdraw it at will, which I cant until I ship on Amazon or eBay hold in escrow for some.
You cant sell Digital items (or ebooks) anymore on eBay they outlawed it.July 5, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #10422082scentsParticipant
You can’t withdraw the EBay money until you ship? I thought that the PayPal money is available right away.July 6, 2012 5:23 am at 5:23 am #1042209YW Moderator-42Moderator
Let’s say I start a 7 day auction right before shkia on Friday, am I not allowed to make early Shabbos the next week?November 14, 2014 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1042211
According to popa, you’re never supposed to make early Shabbos.
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